Airbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 10 Posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 751 times:
this is not meant to be a A v. B war but just an information post.
767: 900 orders
330: 376 orders
Source: Airbus Industrie
now, i believe that A330 is more successful than B767 (according to people in this forum) and also the A330 is better performance-wise. but since the 767 has more orders (with a boost contributed by ANA past few days) why is it considered not as successful as 330?
I personally prefer the A330 from all points of view. i think this also applies to the B737s and B777s...
737: 4,890 orders
320: 2,698 orders
340: 309 orders
777: 564 orders
Source: Manufacturer's Website
i believe that 340 came out before the 777 rite? but i still think airbus makes better planes (keep it up airbus, esp. the A380)
Steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1275 posts, RR: 8 Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 676 times:
but I didn't understand the meaning of your post.
What are you stating? That the A330 is more succesful than the 767 or the opposite?
I think it's not fair to compare the two aircraft on a selling base: the 767 came out at the beginnings of the 80's while the A330 first flew more than 10 years later.
In this respect the 767 is more succesful than the A300/310 while you should compare the A330/A340 to the 777 although the A332 is smaller and intended for a different market niche than the 777-200.
Also, you can't compare easily the 737 and the A320 families. The 737 first flew in 1967! The A320 in 1987! You can say that with almost 5.000 examples sold the 737 is by far more succesful than the A320 but you can also say that with 2.700 examples sold in about 10 years the A320 is the most fast selling.
BTW you say that the A330 is more succesful than the 767 according to the people on this forum, well, I think we shouldn't calculate the success of an airliner by the opinion of some aviation freaks (me included).
Eugdog From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 656 times:
As some one who travels to New York every month from London for ballet and opera I generally go on either 767, A340, or 777.
At least in economy the 777 is far superior to the A340. The cabin is bigger and more airy.
The operating economics is something for the accountants to sort out. From what I read the A340/330 is slightly superior on a seat mile cost then the 777 when the planes are used in their optimal routes. This is what you expect as two aircraft types can fit a wider range of operating requirements then just one "jack of all trades" aircaft. But this is mitigated by the additional cost of having two airplanes types (despite there similarity there are some differences which effect costs). So what airplane the airliners choose really depends on the routes they fly and the prices the aircraft manufacturers offer.
But it would be interesting to see just how well the A340/330 package would do if there was no soft market in Europe. There is enormous political pressure for European airlines to buy European. If that pressure went away - how many sales would there be of 330/340 in Europe.
It is worth mentioning that the least European countries Britain and Scandanavia went with 777s
Steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1275 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 648 times:
Sorry Eugdog but I don't agree with you about the huge political pressure on European airlines to buy European.
Look at Air France, they have or are about to receive a total of 28 B777. They preferred the 777-300ER to the Airbus A340-600 which is built in France.
Alitalia is another example but you might say that Italian Industry is not part of Airbus. So the political pressure to buy Airbus is only towards flag carriers of the 4 Airbus Countries: Air France (see above), British Airways (see your post), Lufthansa (In this case I agree with you) and Iberia (I don't have a clue!).
BTW, what Scandinavian airline ordered 777s. I Thought SAS has placed orders for some A340s and A330s.
Gerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3480 posts, RR: 34 Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 651 times:
As Stefano pointed out, the B767 was about 10 years longer in the market than the A330. The sales success of the A330 increased sharply after the A332 entered the scene, which has accumulated more 50% of the total A330 orders, although beeing offered since 3 or 4 years only.
Also, a better comparison would be B767/B777 against A330/A340, as these aircraft do not compete one-to-one.
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
Notarzt From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 636 times:
The problem is that these numbers ARE NOT comparable in the way 1:1.
Beoing sold approx. 920 examples of all B767 version so far, Airbus sold approx. 840 ships of the A300 and the A310. Now, this seems to be comparable but... just focus the different versions and characteristics:
The pax number are approx. data for an average two-class layout. This is a pretty good illustration of the so-called 'competing models'. The only competitors among the B767 and A300/A310 models are the B767-200 and the A310-200. All others are DIFFERENT (despite the 'time factor').
CONCLUSION: There are only two competitors among the Airbus A300/A310 line and Boeing's B767: The medium-range A310-200 and the medium-range B767-200, both for approx. 210 passengers -and, to a certain extent, the A310-300 and the B767-200ER. Anything else is a farce.
Notarzt From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 612 times:
To answer your forthcoming question (may be): Regarding the 'comparable models' I mentioned above, Airbus sold 260 A310-200/-300 to 40 customers, Boeing sold 240 B767-200/-200ER to 41 customers. As a conclusion, I'd say both, Airbus and Boeing, had a comparable market share for these comparable models.
Notarzt From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 609 times:
In addition, as Stefano pointed out correctly...
>Also, you can't compare easily the 737 and the A320 families.
>The 737 first flew in 1967! The A320 in 1987! You can say
>that with almost 5.000 examples sold the 737 is by far more
>succesful than the A320 but you can also say that with
>2.700 examples sold in about 10 years the A320...
You definitely have to delete the classic B737-100 and -200 models in order to provide a comparison. Airbus started marketing of its new A320 in the mid-1980's, soon after Boeing had commenced sales of the new B737-300, -400, and -500 models. We have a comparable market again. Boeing sold 3,746 B737 since then (!), whereas Airbus received orders for 2,698 A320 family aircraft. This still puts Boeing in front of Airbus (by some 1,000 aircraft) - but both are selling very good.
Another comparison is the B777 and A330/A340 market. However, you have to keep in mind some specific models where no competition exists, e.g. A330-200. Airbus sold 685 aircraft of the A330/A340 family, whereas Boeing sold 564 examples of the B777. In order to keep the comparison 'legal' (with a focus on the A330-200), you have to add all B767-400 orders - and again, both are selling very good, despite some weak versions on both sides (B767-400 on the Boeing side, and A340-500 and -600 on the Airbus side).
All I want to say is: both, Airbus and Boeing, are successfully selling their airplanes with some bestsellers and some weak models - on BOTH sides. Only few are really comparable (while the model families are better to compare than individual models).
DatamanA340 From South Korea, joined Dec 2000, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 557 times:
330 is bigger than 767 and 777 is bigger than 340. That explains all, I think. Somehow, I think it's not a jump of logic to say 330 beats 767 and 777 beats 340 currently, because those pairs looks almost same market.
But just be await: 345/6. I don't think AF prefers 777 to 346. (How? SIA was disappointed for MD-11 before delivery? It's impossible.) It's interesting duel.
Lowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 500 times:
Very few models can be easily compared with each other. And how successful it is in orders doesn't mean anything. For example, Airbus could have sold every A340 with a $10 million profit. Boeing could have sold them with a $5 million profit. And Vice Versa. A320 with 1.5 million, 737 with $2 million.
BTW: I am just doing basic economics. I am not going into the fact of market prices for raw materials, discounts airlines get, etc.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7696 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 496 times:
Of course, it does help that Boeing has been delivering the 767 since 1982, some eleven years headstart over A330 deliveries.
I believe that the primary use of the A330-200 is trans-Atlantic flying, where it has the range to fly as far as ORD-FRA. SR I know flies the A332 on their routes to the USA frequently.
I think if Airbus were able to deliver an improved version of the A340-300 with a 38,000 lb. version of the CFM56 engine based on TECH56 technology, I think that plane will sell very well to airlines that need very long range but don't need the capacity of the A340-500 or 777-200ER.