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UA-LH Partnership: As Deep As NW-KL Or DL-AF?  
User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5971 times:

Curious about the UA-LH partnership. With Oberstar annoucing his opposition to anti-trust agreements, I see a lot of references to NW-KL, DL-AF and the pending AA-BA-IB anti-trust immunity application.

But AFAIK, UA and LH have ATI immunity too, correct? What is different about them compared to the others? While clearly they have a large number of codeshare, do they have a "joint venture" or some kind of profit or revenue-sharing agreement like NW-KL and DL-AF, or is their relationship not as deep?

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5952 times:



Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter):
But AFAIK, UA and LH have ATI immunity too, correct?

UA and LH have a joint venture agreement called Atlantic Plus that covers all of their flights between the US and Europe. They revenue/profit share on all of those flights and it makes absolutely no difference to UA or LH if you are on UA or LH metal over the Atlantic. In addition they code share extensively worldwide.

UA and LH are attempting to add CO and AC to their existing joint venture.



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User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7526 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5714 times:

Nothing still comes as close and as integrated at NW/KL.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineAznMadSci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3655 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5657 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
UA and LH are attempting to add CO and AC to their existing joint venture.

Is there a timeline when the airlines would know when the ruling will take place?



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User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

Any chance LH will buy a strategic stake in UA? UA sure could use additional cash if traffic continues to drop, and LH gets to buy at the current low share price.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5607 times:



Quoting AznMadSci (Reply 3):
Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
UA and LH are attempting to add CO and AC to their existing joint venture.

Is there a timeline when the airlines would know when the ruling will take place?

The DOT has to rule one way or another by May 12th...



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7401 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5583 times:



Quoting Sankaps (Thread starter):
UA-LH Partnership: As Deep As NW-KL Or DL-AF?  

I'd rather say : "UA-LH Partnership : As deep as AFKL-DL ?"

NW doesn't exist anymore. And KL or AF as such doesn't exist anymore either.

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
UA and LH have a joint venture agreement called Atlantic Plus that covers all of their flights between the US and Europe. They revenue/profit share on all of those flights and it makes absolutely no difference to UA or LH if you are on UA or LH metal over the Atlantic. In addition they code share extensively worldwide.

The joint venture AFKL-DLNW is built exactly on the same system.


User currently offlinePictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

Air Canada and Lufthansa already do this on certain routes between canada and germany

User currently offlineEwRkId From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4750 times:



Quoting Pictues (Reply 7):
Air Canada and Lufthansa already do this on certain routes between canada and germany

For example: on the YUL-FRA route, lufthansa doesn't fly from FRA to YUL only to MUC(seasonal), But LH codeshares on AC's YUL-FRA route


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4540 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
The joint venture AFKL-DLNW is built exactly on the same system.

That is actually my question. NW/KL had true profit sharing. The two airlines pooled their Atlantic revenues and costs together, and split down the middle - ie they had a joint P&L for the Atlantic. This is deeper than just pricing code-sharing, joint-selling, and code-sharing, but with separate P&Ls, which is what my impression of UA-LH was. Under the scenario I had assumed for UA-LH, the revenues would be split based on traditional code-share formulas, as opposed to being completely pooled.


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

[removed duplicate post]

[Edited 2009-03-07 09:35:26]

User currently offlineChinook747 From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4473 times:



Quoting Pictues (Reply 7):
Air Canada and Lufthansa already do this on certain routes between canada and germany

took the words right out of my mouth

Quoting EwRkId (Reply 8):
For example: on the YUL-FRA route, lufthansa doesn't fly from FRA to YUL only to MUC(seasonal), But LH codeshares on AC's YUL-FRA route

Also..YYC-FRA/YVR-FRA/YYZ-FRA/YYZ-MUC/YVR-MUC/YOW-FRA AC and LH have done this for years out of Canada.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4163 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
Atlantic Plus

Its actually called Atlantic Alliance - the 1993 strategic alliance between UA-LH which gained ATI by 1996. The Atlantic Plus was a 2003 enhancement where UA-LH combining primarily sales resources for US point of sales. (joint account management, pricing, corporate contracts etc..) and increased the scope of the JV.

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 9):
That is actually my question. NW/KL had true profit sharing. The two airlines pooled their Atlantic revenues and costs together, and split down the middle - ie they had a joint P&L for the Atlantic.

Down the middle? - no its much more complex then that based on host of formulas not the least of which being based ASM generated.

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 9):
Under the scenario I had assumed for UA-LH, the revenues would be split based on traditional code-share formulas, as opposed to being completely pooled.

No. UA-LH revenues are pooled across the North Atlantic and the carriers blindly sell each other.



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