Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Did Ilyushin/Tupolev Design A 747 Competitor?  
User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 539 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28358 times:

During the 60's and 70's when there were races between Russia and the US (maybe W. Europe too) competing to see who could build the first of something or the largest or the fastest etc... did Ilyushin or perhaps Tupolev ever look at designing a competitor to the 747?

As we all know Tupolev came up with the ill fated Tu-144 ("Konkordski") in response to Concorde, with Ilyushin being the only Russian widebody manufacturer I would have thought they would have made an attempt at a 747 competitor. It would be pretty cool to imagine what it would have looked like!

Cheers,

MCO-2-BRS

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27988 times:

Not those but An-22 was initially planned as passengerplane (once used as airlift of USSR consultant with 500-600 passengers from Egypt).

[Edited 2009-03-09 02:25:13]

User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27916 times:

The closest you have is the IL-86. Which was about the size of a DC-10, and would probably be considered a 'Jumbo' back then. Though it came out in the 80s.

User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27915 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 1):
Not those but An-22 was initially planned as passengerplane (once used as airlift of USSR consultant with 500-600 passengers from Egypt).

Am I remembering this wrong, or did they plan to install two passenger decks on the An-22?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27826 times:

I don´t recall how the seating was planned, it´s written in the Red Star book about the AN-22, -124, -225 and -70.

User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 27764 times:

I just looked at the the Wikipedia entry on the Anteus, it states that a PAX version was proposed with seating for up to 724 (!) people, on two decks. No sources cited for that particular info, though. That would have been pretty cool, and I suppose that they would have put windows in. Too bad it never came into fruition, but then again, even in the days of the Aeroflot rule, I doubt the Soviet domestic market would have been able to sustain such high loads. Perhaps it might have had some use as a troop transport (which it did in it's normal config anyway)?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27710 times:

Why not? Airtravel within USSR was very inexpensive for people. More technical problems with
pressurizing, probably why it didn´t happen.
It was used as troop transports, with the airlift from Egypt to USSR.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27613 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
Why not? Airtravel within USSR was very inexpensive for people.

I know, but as I've understood it, Aeroflot back in the day were never very good at filling the planes they already had. And since the largest PAX A/C before the Il-86 carried less than 200 people, there doesn't seem to have been very much of a demand for VLAs. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have built larger planes much sooner

Cheers
Mats.



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 27334 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The primary long range passenger design house was Ilyushin with Tupolev tasked with short and medium haul designs.

Ilyushin almost certainly had plans for a very large aircraft - They built one specially for their domestic market- The IL86 it was to have several features not available on the western types as standard.
It could be turned round at remote airports without the need for support vehicles had built-in air-stairs and had landing gear designed for use on rough runways.
(The air-stairs allowed for access through the cargo hold and the only Western aircraft i've seen similar are the two Courtline Tristars and AF1!)

The main problems encountered by Ilyushin and indeed the USSR aero-industries at the time were related to the available engine technologies and the lack of powerful high-bypass turbofan engine so the IL86s were underpowered with effectively modified IL62/Tu154 turbofan engines .
Without a suitable power supply larger designs would remain on the drawing board.

The IL96 models were to have a Russian high-bypass turbofan engine however these were still small compared to western GE/GE/PW designs,and the IL96 basic models were actually shorter than the IL86.
The historical timing of the IL96 was also to hinder the development somewhat with the political collapse of the USSR and its client states in the early 90s.

One thing however did change and that was access to western avionics and engines and a concept prototype with higher capacity long fuselage PW engines and Western Glass cockpit as been built - But no orders have been completed as far as i know.

Through a variety of creative leasing agreements the Russian and fellow CIS states now have access to both Boeing and Airbus both used and new devastating the domestic Russian/Ukrainian and CIS aviation industries.

The Il96 remains available for sale with a few Il96-400T all freighter being ordered and three Il96-300 new builds being delivered to Cubana (Due to US embargo) in recent times

Several other US embargoed countries have also expressed interest and even placed LOIs with Ilyushin for the IL96 -including Syria Zimbabwe and Venezuela however it remains to be seen if any of these will ever be concluded with real deliveries.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 23875 times:

here you go: it was called the kp860 project

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/kr/860/kr860.htm



http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/kr/860/images/kr860_6.jpg

http://www.suchoj.com/ab1953/KR-860/images/KR-860_06.jpg

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/kr/860/images/kr-860.jpg



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23643 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 7):


Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
Why not? Airtravel within USSR was very inexpensive for people.

I know, but as I've understood it, Aeroflot back in the day were never very good at filling the planes they already had. And since the largest PAX A/C before the Il-86 carried less than 200 people, there doesn't seem to have been very much of a demand for VLAs. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have built larger planes much sooner

Cheers
Mats.

I don´t think they cared so much about loadfactor, I don´t know the loadfactor on big lines like Jalta-Moscow during summer vacation.
Tu-114 (same number and kind of engines as the AN-22) took 220 passengers in single tourist class configuration.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23558 times:

Alberchico, cool paperplane I never seen before,
Autotranslation from the link.
CD-860 (STI-717)
Ultraheavy transport and passenger aircraft
Domestic and international experience shows that the efficiency of the air vehicle is increased in parallel with the increase of its takeoff weight. In view of the world's leading aircraft companies have launched the implementation of the new generation of passenger aircraft capable of taking on board more than 400 passengers. The Boeing Company creates a new, more capacious versions of Boeing 747 aircraft (in particular, the 747-400ER and 747H) and the European consortium Airbus Industry in 2000, proceeded to full implementation of the program to develop 550-seat A380 aircraft with a takeoff weight of 530 tons and a working range Flight 14000-16000 km.
Study ultraheavy passenger vehicles were in the early 1990's Antonov them. Tupolev. In 1997, the Sukhoi Design Bureau, under the leadership of General Designer MP Simonov began development of superheavy passenger and transport aircraft, the CD-860 «Wings of Russia». Chief designer of the aircraft - Altaf Husnimarzanovich Karimov.
In the current environment in order to count on success in the global aviation market and make potesnitsya civil aviation giants such as Boeing and Airbus Industry, it is necessary to significantly increase flight efficiency (ie the product of the number of passengers or load on the range, divided by the take-off mass), the new machine compared to predecessors for at least 15-20%. Productivity of the transport aircraft can be increased, and by increasing the cruising speed, allowing, for example, to perform during the day, not 4, and 5 flights).
High «plank» required characteristics can be overcome only through the synthesis of recent advances in aerodynamics, structural materials, automation, etc. In doing so, the greatest success can be achieved at the joints of aircraft disciplines. At the same time, implementation of new, insufficiently tested concepts and technical solutions (eg, aerodynamic schemes «flying wing» or «composite wing») can lead to excessive cost of the program, unnecessarily increasing the degree of technical risk. Therefore, you want to find a reasonable compromise between the existing and emerging technologies.
This was the basis for shaping the CD-860 aircraft. The machine is made according to the normal aerodynamic scheme with arrowy low wing. Despite the seeming «traditional» appearance, detailed aerodynamic design of aircraft, produced with the involvement of specialists in the TsAGI, provides a high cruising fineness - about 19,5. For comparison, a «record» of previous years in the field of aerodynamic perfection - the strategic bomber Boeing B-52 and 3M VM Myasischeva it (with much more thin-fuselage) is not exceeded 18,0-18,5.
For the first time in domestic transport aircraft intended to use the wing folding console (as a ship-based fighters) that will significantly reduce the dimensions of parking cars. As a result, the CD-860 will sit on the ground no more space than the much smaller Boeing 747, two-passenger version of «Wings of Russia» is capable of carrying on the order of the range 12000-15000 km to 860 people (at trehklassnoy layout). In doing so, embarkation and disembarkation of people much easier by equipping liner built several large bridges fall. This technical solution reduces the dependence of the aircraft from ground-based infrastructure.
However, for the Russian market of air transport 860-seat aircraft has some excess capacity: today and in the near future, we simply no such passenger flows. A passenger version of this CD-860 is focused to a large extent, the external market, where demand for such machines is becoming more evident. He is expected to be interested, especially the Asian and Pacific countries, China and India. In this context, the possibility of «internalization» program, the involvement in foreign partners. The first steps in this direction have already been made.
For Russia, a far greater value may be a cargo version of «Wings of Russia». CD-860 to be fitted with a stern ramp and recline up the bow of the fuselage. In the Russian Air Force aircraft that could replace the strategic military transport aircraft An-124 «Ruslan».
The value of the new «heavy» and civilian cargo transportation within the country. Calculations show that the cost of transporting goods on board the CD-860 to be very close to the cost of transport by rail. Compared with «Ruslan» and «heavy» new car to take on board in 1,5-2 times more cargo containers (one of the options for downloading - thirty 40-foot container rail grade). It should be borne in mind that the value of the contents of containers going «low speed» on railways, or non-floating sea rush, «omertvlyaetsya» for the time spent in a way that enhances the attractiveness of air transport container for a large category of goods.
«Horizontal» transcontinental route, using the CD-860 can provide a country of substantial foreign exchange earnings, the shortest path connecting Japan, China and other countries in Asia Pacific and Europe. The squad of 15-20 aircraft, could perform the work of «Trans Air» between Japan and Western Europe, carried up to 220 thousand containers per year. In addition, this high-speed air corridor will promote economic cooperation between distributed «horizontal» Russian regions. Greater economic interest, and may be combined, cargo version of the aircraft.
Another crucial task for the country, which can be solved using the CD-860 is the transportation by air of energy. Our country just need to learn the northern territory, in the depths of which are huge reserves of oil and natural gas. However, construction of new pipelines (as well as maintain the operational status of the already existing) in the tundra, taiga, mountain ranges and numerous rivers and swamps of Siberia - an extremely difficult task, especially for the current weakened economy of Russia. In addition, the existing pipelines with numerous leaks and accidents are not the best impact on the ecology of the North, where, because of natural features, man-heal «wounds» occurs particularly slow.
Calculations show that the «flying tanker» on the basis of the CD-850 could become a kind of air bridge length of 1000 - 1500 km between the northern fields and the «South» of the country with a developed transport infrastructure. It is estimated TsAGI, the cost of the program «Wings of Russia» is estimated at 3-4 billion dollars approximately the same value is the development of only one new North Field. Today the country is approximately 50000 km and 150000 km of oil pipelines, almost a third of which are in dilapidated condition. At the same time, our production facilities ensure the construction of only 1000 km of main pipelines in the year. That is why the organization of air traffic «vertical», from north to south, can be an effective means of exit from the economic crisis in the oil and gas industry and have some impact on the overall geopolitical situation in the country.
It should be noted that air transport should greatly enhance the energy security of this process compared with the pipeline, ship or rail. Such a conclusion, and American specialists. was studied in 70-ies. possibilities of air transportation of liquefied natural gas or crude oil from Alaska. They have shown that compared with the pipeline transportation of aviation fuel in an environmentally safer than 20-fold, as compared to rail - in 2-3 times.
Like other «Air heavyweights» CD-860 must be based on first class air. However, being activities to improve the landing characteristics of the machine (which is especially important for the transport and military transport options).
In developing the aircraft a lot of attention paid to issues of security and survivability of passengers (in this regard is scheduled to conduct special studies of complex).
Program for «Wings of Russia» makes only the first steps. However, it is possible to speak about her support for a number of large Russian regional politicians and industry leaders such as President of Tatarstan Mintimer Shaimiev and the head of the group «Gazprom» Rem ringdove.
When you create a «Wings of Russia» is possible (and necessary), a broad domestic cooperation. In 1997, already negotiated between the OKB Sukhoi, Tupolev and Yakovlev to work together to create such an aircraft. In the future, these contacts will certainly continue. In particular, the experience Antonov them. Tupolev prove invaluable in the development of options for the machine, is used as fuel, liquefied gas. Production of CD-860 can be arranged at the Kazan aviation plant, which has great experience in heavy construction, the most advanced for its time flying aircraft Tu-22, IL-62, Tu-204, Tu-160. You may participate in the program and other aircraft of the country. It is estimated OKB, if a decision to start full-scale work on the program, the first serial aircraft CD-860 can be built in 6 - 6,5 years. The value of a car valued at $ 160 million, slightly less than the cost of A3HH (more than $ 200 million). All the same program for the creation of an aircraft is estimated at about $ 5-5,5 billion This figure includes certification, construction of prototype aircraft and a pre-production process.
Draft CR-860 was presented to the air show «Le Bourget-99». Completion of the avanproekta CD-860 was planned by the end of 1999.
Creation of «Wings of Russia» - a daunting task of a national scale, which can be successfully solved only with the support of the Russian Government, the State Duma, the Federation Council, the national capital. At the same time, its success could significantly affect the economic situation of the country, open a «second wind» oil and gas industry, radically solve the problem of «north import» and crisis with the supply of energy in remote areas of the country (for example, in Kamchatka).
Due to its potential of CD-860 - a new vehicle, it is imperative for domestic freight transportation, as well as the capability to bring the country a considerable profit in the foreign market. The construction of the aircraft can significantly support and domestic aircraft.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23469 times:

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 8):
The primary long range passenger design house was Ilyushin with Tupolev tasked with short and medium haul designs.

Ilyushin almost certainly had plans for a very large aircraft - They built one specially for their domestic market- The IL86 it was to have several features not available on the western types as standard.
It could be turned round at remote airports without the need for support vehicles had built-in air-stairs and had landing gear designed for use on rough runways.
(The air-stairs allowed for access through the cargo hold and the only Western aircraft i've seen similar are the two Courtline Tristars and AF1!)

The main problems encountered by Ilyushin and indeed the USSR aero-industries at the time were related to the available engine technologies and the lack of powerful high-bypass turbofan engine so the IL86s were underpowered with effectively modified IL62/Tu154 turbofan engines .
Without a suitable power supply larger designs would remain on the drawing board.
.

Not true, Tupolev had the biggest longrange passengerplane with the Tu-114 during the 1970ies,
Illjysin won the next two big designs, Il-86 and Il-96, after competition. Even Yakovlev competed for big passenger plane.

[Edited 2009-03-09 12:36:17]

User currently offlineMetJetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 23279 times:

There is no support for this comment, but I always assumed that the engine technology was not being allowed to be shared with Russia, at the time, and that their engine technology was not conducive to those type of operations. Essentially, that is why the AN 225 needed six powerplants...rather than 4 engines that were more powerful.

Likewise it made the more expensive cost per hour flights great for specialized cargo, but not really profitable from a passenger perspective.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22951 times:



Quoting MetJetCEO (Reply 13):
There is no support for this comment, but I always assumed that the engine technology was not being allowed to be shared with Russia, at the time, and that their engine technology was not conducive to those type of operations. Essentially, that is why the AN 225 needed six powerplants...rather than 4 engines that were more powerful.

Likewise it made the more expensive cost per hour flights great for specialized cargo, but not really profitable from a passenger perspective.

It was allowed, but USSR couldn´t fork up enough money, they wanted an RR design but couldn´t pay for the amount of engines the Brits wanted to sell.
AN-225 shares so many parts with the AN-124 so it was easier to slap on two more engines
and the commonality with the AN-124 played a role. It was suppose to support the USSR
spaceprogramme so a passengerversion wasn´t even thought of (but sure there´s 80 passenger seats on it for crew).


User currently offlineMetJetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 22867 times:

Thanks for the info

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 14):
It was allowed, but USSR couldn´t fork up enough money, they wanted an RR design but couldn´t pay for the amount of engines the Brits wanted to sell.
AN-225 shares so many parts with the AN-124 so it was easier to slap on two more engines
and the commonality with the AN-124 played a role.

That's cool to know. In reference to passengers, I meant larger passenger versions of other aircraft/ schematics above. In those instances more powerplants would have made the passenger operations unprofitable.

It is interesting to see the money that was spent on military infrastucture (as was the case with the US, too) but the cost of engines probably hampered their aviation expansions.


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 22745 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Alessandro

Quote:
Not true, Tupolev had the biggest long range passenger plane with the Tu-114 during the 1970ies,
Illjysin won the next two big designs, Il-86 and Il-96, after competition. Even Yakovlev competed for big passenger plane.

In reality how effective were these design house competitions?

Wasn't the Tu114 a -1950s technology contra rotating prop powered aircraft.
The IL62s have been around since the late 1967-1968.

Didn't the design houses do just that with construction being carried out by separate factory companies under a sort of tendering process?

Quote:
It was allowed, but USSR couldn´t fork up enough money, they wanted an RR design but couldn´t pay for the amount of engines the Brits wanted to sell.
AN-225 shares so many parts with the AN-124 so it was easier to slap on two more engines
and the commonality with the AN-124 played a role. It was suppose to support the USSR
spaceprogramme so a passengerversion wasn´t even thought of (but sure there´s 80 passenger seats on it for crew).

Didn't the USSR actually receive a few RB211 derivatives for the power industries that were subsequently used to garner knowledge on how high-bypass turbofan engine are constructed and work?


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22039 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 16):
Quote:


In reality how effective were these design house competitions?

Wasn't the Tu114 a -1950s technology contra rotating prop powered aircraft.
The IL62s have been around since the late 1967-1968.

Didn't the design houses do just that with construction being carried out by separate factory companies under a sort of tendering process?

The Tu-114 flew commercially in 1961 for the first time, so yes it´s a 1950ies design, but rather efficent one, JAL operated it as well. IL-62 was the replacement. So only 6 years between them when it comes to commercial operations.
Yes, the design studios competed with different designs (mainly Antonov, Beriev, Iljysin, Tupolev and Yakovlev on the civilian side) then the winner was picked and the different factories where given the design to produce it. Sometimes politics within COMECON countries (LET-410 beat Berievs version) and the Baade passenger plane demise got into this selection.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21998 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 16):
Didn't the USSR actually receive a few RB211 derivatives for the power industries that were subsequently used to garner knowledge on how high-bypass turbofan engine are constructed and work?

Never heard that and I doubt it. RR was aware how the copied their design during the 1940ies.
Read that they got hold of DC-10 engines when they took Kabul.


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21740 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Visit this link for details of the static RB211 as supplied to the Oil and Gas Industries.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/energy/en...gy_products/gas_turbines/RB211.jsp

These were exported to the USSR.

As for YA-FAS yes the spare engine rumour is that it was inspected for reverse engineering purposes.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21604 times:

Nothing says in the link about an export to USSR?
I think RR wanted a minimum order of 400 engines of the RR210 to let it be used on the An-124.

[Edited 2009-03-09 15:17:19]

User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 21503 times:

Thanks for the detailed info guys! I had a feeling that there was something somewhere, even if on paper or as a model. I love Russian made aircraft for their unique aesthetic, and always wondered what a Russian engineered VLA would look like. I had a feeling Ilyushin would have been the most likely manufacturer.

Cheers,

MCO-2-BRS


User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1403 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 19316 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 9):
it was called the kp860 project

No, it was called the KR-860 project.

For more info: http://www.suchoj.com/galerie/index....oj.com/ab1953/KR-860/galerie.shtml

and the gallery: http://www.suchoj.com/galerie/index....oj.com/ab1953/KR-860/galerie.shtml



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2985 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19154 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Severnaya

Cyrillic р sounds as R in latin script true enough


User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1403 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19016 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 23):

Cyrillic р sounds as R in latin script true enough

True! So as you can see on the photo its КР-860 (cyrillic), which is translated with KR-860 (latin)



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
25 RIX : - comparing to what? 100 rubles for Leningrad - Tbilisi round trip (less than 3 hours one way), or 40 for Riga - Moscow (about an hour), with average
26 Stitch : It should have, since Airbus planes use parts sourced from the United States. This is why the Syria deal for 50(?) frames fell through.
27 Viscount724 : As far as I know, Cubana has never bought any Airbus aircraft. They currently operate one A320 but it's sub-leased from TACA.
28 RIX : - that makes sense, thanks.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Did Qantas Get The 747-400ER? posted Wed Aug 29 2007 14:06:33 by FlyTUITravel
Why Did Airlines Order The B 747-300? posted Wed Aug 1 2007 05:50:00 by United Airline
Did TWA Ever Use 747 On The LAX-JFK In The 80s posted Mon May 28 2007 20:35:39 by 747400sp
Did NW Ever Fly A 747 Into BZN? posted Sat Apr 14 2007 04:19:05 by RW717
When Did Cathay Retire The 747-200 And -300? posted Wed Aug 30 2006 10:09:31 by Airbus_A340
Did An Air India 747 Land At SFO Tonight? posted Fri Mar 17 2006 04:43:25 by Egghead
Did Midway Airlines Have A 747? posted Wed Dec 22 2004 23:25:10 by Mainrunway
Did LTU Operate A Boeing 747 posted Sun Aug 31 2003 23:18:58 by 747400sp
Did The Tupolev 144 Ever Fly Commercial Service? posted Mon Oct 14 2002 10:47:48 by Boeing767-383
When Did You First See A 747? posted Thu Nov 29 2001 10:39:41 by EGFF