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Anyone Think Air Southwest & Flybe Should Merge?  
User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Hi

I was wondering if anyone has thought before whether Air Southwest and Flybe should or could merge?

Although Air Southwest uses the slightly smaller Dash 8 300 series, both airlines offer a similar product to similar destinations.

Do you think there would be any benefits?

Any thoughts welcomed.

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12323 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Or maybe a franchise operation, like Loganair's relationship?

There was some talk of this some time ago; maybe there were talks, but they fell through. I think, personally - purely on the basis of their networks and aircraft types - that it would work well. WOW has been stuck with five Dash 8s for the last few years and BE has grown its business significantly and successfully; clearly not a lot of expanding going on there; can you really get the economies of scale, both in terms of number of aircraft and also numbers of seats on aircraft, that BE gets with its 78 seat Q400s? Doubtful, I'd say.

So, all things considered, I'd say there's scope for a relationship; perhaps BE could lease some of its Dash 8s to WOW, to replace their five Dash 8-300s and they could benefit from BE's maintenance and pilot training facilities?


User currently offline8herveg From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3465 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
WOW has been stuck with five Dash 8s for the last few years

Have they really only got 5 aircraft? Thought they would have more than considering the amount of destinations they have.

They probably could merge completely, rather than as a franchise, as I am sure there are some routes which Flybe have which only need the 300 series, and some routes which WOW have which could use the slightly larger 400 series.


User currently offlineBMED From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 860 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

I would think that a franchise would work. That way flybe don't then get the cost of the business but still have the benefits. Also it means that Air Southwest keeps its independance. Thats one going thing about the Loganair agreement. Scottish people still feel that Loganair is the airline for Scotland rather than just a national carrier. I think that in these times it will be key for airlines to be working together. Would also allow more connection oppotunities for passengers as well.


Living the jetset life! No better way to be
User currently offlineSuper737 From UK - Northern Ireland, joined Feb 2008, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Personally, AIr Southwest offer Flybe no real benefits. If BE wanted to, they could wipe Air Southwest out no matter what anybody says.

The usual thing about mergers is, both companies have something to offer. Not this one, for flybe it would be a step backwards, older sub fleet, more training and a business plan much different to theirs.

Now with loganair, they do as their dominatrix (flybe) tells them to do. If loganair were still a BA b*tch would they now be operating BHD/IOM/BLK?



If its not a super tractor its not a plane
User currently offlineFlybehubby From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Here's my (slightly opinionated) 2p worth.

Quoting Super737 (Reply 4):
Personally, AIr Southwest offer FLYBE no real benefits. If BE wanted to, they could wipe Air Southwest out no matter what anybody says.

I'd tend to agree with this, simple reason would be economies of scale. Flybe have a very low cost base. Plus, if they could fill the aircraft, the revenues generated on the Q400 vs 300 could be greater......this obviously depends at what cost the seats we're sold at.

Im not aware of Air Southwests' (WOW) financial details but Flybe have had a good couple of years and i'm guessing would have more cash in the bank to should they decide to sell seats at below cost just to kill WOW off.

Quoting BMED (Reply 3):
Thats one going thing about the Loganair agreement. Scottish people still feel that Loganair is the airline for Scotland rather than just a national carrier.

I agree entirely, the Scottish still like to buy from themselves.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
So, all things considered, I'd say there's scope for a relationship; perhaps BE could lease some of its Dash 8s to WOW, to replace their five Dash 8-300s and they could benefit from BE's maintenance and pilot training facilities?

I doubt this would happen. The retirement of the BACON EMB145s means the Q400 fleet is doing more sectors than before and they still dont have the crew numbers Flybe are wanting per aircraft. This situation should be sorted by the end of this year. BTW im not saying that Flybe are short staffed on the Q400 fleet, before the rumour mill starts.

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Although Air Southwest uses the slightly smaller Dash 8 300 series, both airlines offer a similar product to similar destinations.

Its hard to offer a much different product / routes when using a similar type of regional fleet. There's only so far a Dash can fly!

Quoting Super737 (Reply 4):
The usual thing about mergers is, both companies have something to offer. Not this one, for FLYBE it would be a step backwards, older sub fleet

I agree, im not sure of when the WOW's fleet was delivered but being 300s they may have been produced before the advances in technology developed for the Q400 we're applied to the production lines of the 300. Im also led to believe that the cost difference between running the 300 and the Q400 is small so why not use the larger Q400 and try to sell the extra seats?



Helping to turn Europe orange.
User currently offlineNighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5093 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

And give FlyBE a virtual monopoly on domestic flying?

If anything WOW should be looking to merge with Eastern or Aer Arran, in order to provide greater competition to FlyBE on domestic flights. Sadly the fleets and business models dont really match between these airlines, making a merger difficult.



That'll teach you
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

I severely hope not, it would be a massive step backwards for the far South West's flight connections as BE are not committed to PLH, or NQY for that matter, as the Q400 is too big.

Quoting Super737 (Reply 4):
If BE wanted to, they could wipe Air Southwest out no matter what anybody says

Well they tried and failed before; last year they manned an invasion of NQY which proved pretty thankless; pitiful load factors and surprise surprise, several routes never even got into the air and few have returned for a second season. They are having another stab with the influx of seats on the LGW route, but at the end of the day they can't get into PLH - their aircraft are just too big which gives WOW a major advantage and stronghold. Air Southwest aren't a fragile carrier who can be blown over in just one breath, a look at their recent response to BE illustrates that.


Dan  Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2903 times:

Anyone know what BE's CASM is? And could provide a source? Thanks.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineFlybehubby From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

I dont have the CASM but page 16 in the Flybe accounts for 2007/2008 listed the following KPIs

Key performance indicators
Profit before tax per seat (underlying*) (£) 3.29
Profit/(loss) before tax per seat (headline) (£) 2.83
Revenue per seat (£) 49.85
Cost per seat (£) 46.56
Cost per seat excluding fuel (£) 38.63



Helping to turn Europe orange.
User currently offlineSickbocks From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Brymon used to do what Air Southwest do. Brymon - a happy place. BA gobbled-up Brymon, glued them together with BRAL and BA Regional and created BA Citiexpress subsequently rebranded to BA Connect. Cue ex-Brymon employees escaping low morale and helping to create Air Southwest - essentially Brymon 2.

BA Connect was then sold to flybe. Not sure the Air Southwest people would be too chuffed about being assimilated twice.


User currently offlineCOFanNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2697 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 8):
Anyone know what BE's CASM is? And could provide a source? Thanks.

In 2007-2008, BE's CASK was approximately 8.8p. I can't provide a link to a source as it's internal data from my company, but I consider it fairly trustworthy.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2660 times:



Quoting Sickbocks (Reply 10):
Not sure the Air Southwest people would be too chuffed about being assimilated twice.

I know for a fact that the employees wouldn't be. Luckily it'll never happen...



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

I would hate for them to merge. Flybe is very very expensive, so for them to take complete monopoly in this area would be awful for the economy, also with the cutting back of flying from Plymouth and Newquay could only be bad for tourism. If they did take over Plymouth would be dropped completely because the runway there isn't long enough for the Q400 so that any Q400 flights from there would have to take a hit on weights. Anyway, I don't think Sutton Harbour (the holding company for Air Southwest as well as who own most of Plymouth...) would sell it to Flybe as it is used to attract companies to use other companies in their group in the city. Even if it was making a loss, they would probably take the hit as the revenue through other companies in the group (i.e. the Airport and Port) would make up for the loss indirectly.


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2623 times:



Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 13):

Plymouth City Council would certainly object, for exactly those reasons - the airport and airline has been recognised as a vital economic link. Pissing off PCC is certainly not in the Sutton Harbor group's best interest, to say the least.



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
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