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Delta Announces ATL-BSB Service  
User currently offlineSLCPDXATL From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 61 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11336 times:

Service begins Dec. 17, operating three times weekly with 757-200

82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11299 times:
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Here's the schedule

DL231 ATL 2120 BSB 0845 (+1)
DL232 BSB 2345 ATL 540 (+1)

DL231 operates on Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays
DL232 operates on Tuesdays, Fridays and Sundays

Interesting DL will focus on the high yield market by offering the a late night departure to the US. It means one B752 will be fully used and will stay 15 hours. This will provide better connections for people from CGB, GYN and other markets.

[Edited 2009-03-09 10:36:35]


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11266 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Interesting DL will focus on the high yield market by offering the a late night departure to the US.

It is interesting. Say they operated it as a turn in BSB... the schedule would be something like
this:

ATL 2120 BSB 0845 +1
BSB 1045 ATL 1540

That's a schedule that permits connections to just about any DL destination on both ends. Clearly, they don't like the potential yields of a schedule like that.

[Edited 2009-03-09 10:39:20]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11239 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
It is interesting. Say they operated it as a turn in ATL... the schedule would be something like
this:

ATL 2120 BSB 0845 +1
BSB 1045 ATL 1540

That's a schedule that permits connections to just about any DL destination on both ends. Clearly, they don't like the potential yields of a schedule like that.

Correct. And the experiences with both ATL-MAO and ATL-REC-FOR probably show them that connections in Brazil are not so good (and could be the missing point to allow a profitable operation year-round) if they focus on a daylight BSB-ATL sector.
I believe with the schedule given, DL will get very good results and probably will increase this flight to daily in the near future.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11217 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
probably show them that connections in Brazil are not so good (and could be the missing point to allow a profitable operation year-round) if they focus on a daylight BSB-ATL sector.

How many cities have service to BSB that arrives before, say, 0930?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11144 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
How many cities have service to BSB that arrives before, say, 0930?

A lot. I would say around 15-20. TAM holds a hub bank with arrivals between 1700 and 2100 with services to SSA, REC, FOR, BEL, MAO, CNF, GIG, GRU, MCZ, CGB, CWB, POA, SLZ, THE, VIX, VCP, FLN and some other small markets. Gol also runs a night hub bank.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11090 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Interesting DL will focus on the high yield market by offering the a late night departure to the US. It means one B752 will be fully used and will stay 15 hours.

For Northern Winter season Delta also has no pressure on aircraft utilization because one third of their transatlantic capacity vanishes. They could even fly BSB with a 767 for the first several months of operation if they wished.

They should have no problem making this flight work, but overall for Brazil outside of GRU/GIG, I fail to see how 10 frequencies a week spread across four destinations can be good business.

[Edited 2009-03-09 11:14:01]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11033 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 8):
A lot. I would say around 15-20. TAM holds a hub bank with arrivals between 1700 and 2100 with services to SSA, REC, FOR, BEL, MAO, CNF, GIG, GRU, MCZ, CGB, CWB, POA, SLZ, THE, VIX, VCP, FLN and some other small markets. Gol also runs a night hub bank.

 checkmark What about if it was a morning departure from BSB? What connections would be possible?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10955 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
DL231 ATL 2120 BSB 0845 (+1)
DL232 BSB 2345 ATL 540 (+1)

There seems such a large discrepancy in the times of these flights: 10 hours southbound and seven northbound. Why is that? Is it the norm (similar to coast to coast flights in the US)?



"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2853 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10934 times:

So does this mean Delta, for lack of better words, "won" the recent U.S.-Brazil route authority allocation?


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10908 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
What about if it was a morning departure from BSB? What connections would be possible?

Almost the same, Cubsrule. Plus EZE !
And i forgot GYN, GRU, CGR and Imperatriz

Quoting JM017 (Reply 11):
There seems such a large discrepancy in the times of these flights: 10 hours southbound and seven northbound. Why is that? Is it the norm (similar to coast to coast flights in the US)?

It's due to the time difference. In December ATL is -3 hours compared to BSB. So it's 8h25min ATL-BSB and 9h BSB-ATL



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10869 times:
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Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):
So does this mean Delta, for lack of better words, "won" the recent U.S.-Brazil route authority allocation?

No, DL just asked for use 3 of the 11 frequencies they got on the previous allocation (2008). The 2009 frequencies draft (14) has not been concluded yet.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10869 times:

Does anyone know how the frequencies are being reworked to allow for this? I'm assuming that MAO is being cut down to 3 weekly with FOR-REC at 4 weekly and BSB at 3 weekly. Is that correct?


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10846 times:
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Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
Does anyone know how the frequencies are being reworked to allow for this? I'm assuming that MAO is being cut down to 3 weekly with FOR-REC at 4 weekly and BSB at 3 weekly. Is that correct?

In fact MAO will be reduced to 4x weekly. DL holds 11 "restricted" frequencies:

This summer we will see:
ATL-MAO 3x
ATL-FOR 4x
ATL-REC 4x

By December 17
ATL-BSB 3x
ATL-REC-FOR 4x
ATL-MAO 4x



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10813 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):

Ah ok. Thanks for the info.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10605 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16):
In fact MAO will be reduced to 4x weekly. DL holds 11 "restricted" frequencies:

This summer we will see:
ATL-MAO 3x
ATL-FOR 4x
ATL-REC 4x

Panrotas is saying FOR 3x and REC 3x.
DL holds 10 restricted frequencies.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10435 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
Panrotas is saying FOR 3x and REC 3x.
DL holds 10 restricted frequencies.

10 is what AA got, DL got 11 and together produces 21.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10331 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
Panrotas is saying FOR 3x and REC 3x.

Just got the schedules, it's in fact 3x weekly for both FOR and REC and all with overnight flights both ways. DL is looking to offer a good product !

DL229 ATL 2000 REC 0615 - Tu/Th/Su
DL230 REC 2130 ATL 0540 - Mo/We/Fr
Boeing 757-200

DL231 ATL 2000 FOR 0545 - Mo/We/Fr
DL232 FOR 2200 ATL 0540 - Tu/Th/Sa
Boeing 757-200

From 07/01 to 08/14



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineExaauadl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10292 times:

What is AA doing with BSB if anything?

DL has an advantage over AA by being first mover, they will get the US Gov contract.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10277 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
10 is what AA got, DL got 11 and together produces 21.

Did you forget that DL returned one frequency???


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5232 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10268 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
10 is what AA got, DL got 11 and together produces 21.

This was originally the case but then DL gave up one of the MAO frequencies so they ended up with 10 and AA has 11.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10256 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
Just got the schedules, it's in fact 3x weekly for both FOR and REC and all with overnight flights both ways. DL is looking to offer a good product !

Yes, if the they achieve good results, they will most propably pull out of MAO and add the 4th frequency to either BSB or REC.


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32609 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10220 times:



Quoting Exaauadl (Reply 21):
What is AA doing with BSB if anything?

DL has an advantage over AA by being first mover, they will get the US Gov contract.

I expect that while DL is first to announce, AA will be first to serve by November 2009. They can reduce MIA-CNF to 3w and SSA/REC to 5w temporarily, and then get more frequencies from the 2010 selection.



a.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17347 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10357 times:



Quoting Exaauadl (Reply 21):
DL has an advantage over AA by being first mover,

I guess...but the reality is they're just shifting their losses around Brazil and minimizing their exposure in any one individual city.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10336 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 22):
Did you forget that DL returned one frequency???

You're right. AA now got 11 and DL 10.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
I expect that while DL is first to announce, AA will be first to serve by November 2009. They can reduce MIA-CNF to 3w and SSA/REC to 5w temporarily, and then get more frequencies from the 2010 selection.

I would expect AA rather to add a second plane and provide overnight flights to both SSA and REC. If AA reduces the daily service to SSA/REC to provide additional service to BSB (where they will need to also offer overnight flights) they could see DL reacting by pulling out of MAO and confirming ATL-REC / ATL-FOR with overnight flights, giving AA a real problem on their route to SSA/REC.
DL will transfer frequencies, not reduce service.

And yes, AA in my view lost the opportunity to get some valuable MIA-BSB frequencies this year.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 2707200X : I like this news, BSB is a very important city with 2,500,000 plus and it is home to the third busiest airport in Brazil, I think this is a smart move
26 MAH4546 : I doubt that AA will have a "real problem." The U.S.-REC/SSA market is so ridiculously biased towards South Florida, that AA is fine. BSB, CNF and MA
27 C010T3 : It's just hilarious that DL loaded the flights as being operated by a MD-88.
28 WorldTraveler : And then costs skyrocket. Serving a circle route 5 days/week increases the cost dramatically. The reason DL is separating its flights is to get the c
29 MAH4546 : There won't be much competition for new service, so the likelihood is very strong. GIG will be over-saturated and DL is having enough trouble playing
30 AwysBSB : A US carrier finally resumes operations to BSB! After Pan Am dropped its operations here only Varig and Transbrasil had been operating direct services
31 LipeGIG : As far as GIG continues to show 25% to 30% of US-Brazil demand and only 13% of flights, the "over-saturated" will continue far from the city. I Don't
32 Davescj : I think it is interesting DL is expanding to both South America and Africa. Clearly, those were two weak points in they services. Any word if the 757s
33 Rafabozzolla : I personally don't think it's a smart strategy to serve a bunch of markets with lower frequency. MAO is clearly saturated so, IMHO, Delta should can M
34 LipeGIG : There's plans to install flat beds on the 757s ? Agree. In my opinion they should drop MAO in favor of REC/FOR/BSB.
35 Incitatus : What source says GIG is 25% to 30% of the US-Brazil demand? I find that hard to believe. Sao Paulo is typically double the size of Rio as an internat
36 LipeGIG : Continental Airlines, American Airlines, US Airways and Delta information provided to DOT using travellers databases like MIDT. Sorry, it's the best
37 Frostbite : DL has been pretty persistent in developing new LatAm stations out of ATL - even when they don't perform well right out of the gate. Frequencies may
38 LipeGIG : Today, while checking some fares, i realize they made an adjustment on MAO and REC/FOR fares. Now it's possible even to purchase MAO for this weekend
39 Davescj : I think this is key. It would be interesting to see how much is O/D traffic and what is connection and from where. For a long time AA had the massive
40 LipeGIG : ATL-GIG for example has an O&D of 17,558 passengers in 2008 accordingly to DL. But it's less than connections from NYC, MIA, MCO and IAH to Rio. So c
41 Alianza : Yep, and still do have quite a network to/from there. Quote=LipeGIG,reply=40]So considering that ATL-GIG offers around 77,000 seats a year, we can se
42 LipeGIG : At this point i expect a drop of 10 to 20% over 2008 numbers. Not only because of the economic crisis but also due to this the Real (BRL currency) is
43 Incitatus : Don't mix this up. MIDT data is not provided to the DoT nor does it have any relationship to the government. It is made of travel agency bookings and
44 WorldTraveler : Capacity is still remarkably constrained between the US and Brazil. Brazil fares are higher than to other countries in S. America and are in fact som
45 Incitatus : Thus the actual number is even smaller than 8% because of some beyond-GIG traffic that ends up counted as local.
46 Jetlanta : But sophisticated users of MIDT are able to adjust the data to near 100% true market size using a variety of calibrating data sources, such as DOT. T
47 WorldTraveler : But again, the size of the local market is immaterial if you get average fares at the LFs that DL is getting. I'm not sure what aircraft AA is using
48 LipeGIG : I'm not mixing anything, you're mixing! I said and i confirm that airlines use MIDT to get numbers they present to DOT. I never said it has relations
49 WorldTraveler : C/F demand worldwide is down so it is reasonable to think that airline managements are keeping capacity in those markets that will do the best. Brazi
50 Cubsrule : It'll be interesting to see where they go from here, though, as I wonder whether they're running out of good options. A place like MVD probably canno
51 MAH4546 : MVD had long supported UA and AA concurrently until last year. MVD is typically a gold mine, and it was not until record fuel prices which made such
52 Cubsrule : Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was thinking of n/s service from the States. I agree that we might see DL running EZE-MVD at some point (there's
53 LipeGIG : I agree with your comment, but my point is that, a 15% fare drop would be interesting and probably can provide a substantial increase on demand. Airl
54 WorldTraveler : There are still markets in LatAm that DL can develop. However, DL is most likely to add additional frequencies in ATL-LatAm as well as add new routes
55 C010T3 : UA did have the option of running Brazil-MVD either from GRU or GIG. The EZE-MVD is too small to even profit from 5th freedom rights, if they do exis
56 MAH4546 : Fifth freedom rights do exist on U.S. carriers between EZE-MVD, and United profited off them for nearly two decades; while AA continues to fly EZE-MV
57 Incitatus : Correct, I will not accept that the local traffic on DL's GIG-ATL composes 25% of the total traffic. Judging from other comments, probably neither wi
58 Frostbite : There are candidates in Colombia (e.g. Cali and Medellin), and Montevideo as many here have mentioned. I would think Bolivia may wind up on the radar
59 MAH4546 : There are currently no available frequencies. DL applied for ATL-CLO/MDE, but put preference on JFK-BOG instead.
60 Cubsrule : I have a hard time believing DL can make Bolivia work-- the market is pretty small, and even AA doesn't run widebodies there.
61 LipeGIG : It's not a limited period of time. One year is far from being a limited period of time. And large or not, again, it's MIDT data provided by DL, AA, U
62 C010T3 : Well, if you call carrying connecting traffic from EZE and the small amount of passengers that prefer EZE over AEP profitting, who am I to dispute wh
63 Nickofatlanta : My understanding is that Bolivia-US traffic is heavily centred around MIA and, to a lesser degree, Washington DC which makes me think that you're rig
64 MAH4546 : Correct. There is very little demand outside of Miami and DC/Northern Virginia. AA's Bolivia service is one of the most O&D-centric from MIA.
65 SCL767 : Especially when LAN Peru intends on operating IAD-LIM, with immediate connections to LPB and VVI at LIM.
66 MAH4546 : I'm pretty sure LAN has, not surprisingly, canceled plans for IAD.
67 SCL767 : Are you sure they haven't delayed it? Anyway, I'm not surprised given current economic conditions.
68 RobertS975 : With that long a layover in BSB, and the lack of daily service, can we assume that the same flight and cabin crew will fly the return from BSB-ATL aft
69 WorldTraveler : It is not uncommon for crews to turnaround after a daylight "overnight". 15 hrs is adequate for a layover.
70 Cubsrule : IIRC, though, at least the crews for GRU, EZE, and SCL do stay for 36 hours. Do you know?
71 WorldTraveler : I have heard of AA and DL crews doing daytime turnarounds. Don't know about other airlines. I'm sure it changes. Some of the schedules for some cities
72 Cubsrule : I suspect that's the case. I only know about DAL146/147 for sure, because I've talked to crews in SCL who told me they had a day and a half (this was
73 MCOAviationFan : For DL, most S. American F/A layovers are 36 hours. However, every month there has been one S. American city that has a 12 hour layover. Crews call th
74 MAH4546 : Well, that and AA has F/A-bases in deep South America, including Santiago.
75 RobertS975 : Well, it was the three times a week frequency that made me believe that the same crews will take the round trip with just the daytime rest period. Oth
76 LipeGIG : Would be smart to postpone the start of this service SCL-IAD. I believe so as in the other hand they shall need to stay at BSB for up to 89 hours con
77 2travel2know : If DL was to schedule the ATL-BSB arrival and BSB-ATL departure so far apart that the same crew has a minimun layover in BSB to take the aircraft bac
78 Cubsrule : That may be due to the distance from SCL to the hotels that foreign air crews normally use (it can be an hour plus drive, even in good traffic). That
79 LipeGIG : That's my point considering the aircraft remain on ground for 15 hours.
80 SCL767 : AA crews from DFW have short layovers in SCL; except the pilots. AA957/AA912 crews are based in SCL.
81 PU752 : AA is not operating the EZE-MVD tag-on currently... so AA is not serving MVD daily, just 5x nonstop MIA-MVD-MIA.... I'm wondering if this is just for
82 WorldTraveler : DL's ATLSCL flight is one of the last deep S. American flights to leave which cuts into the layover time. The schedule has been that way for quite som
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