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Delta Cutting International Capacity By 10%  
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17774 times:

Delta is set to announce a 10% reduction in international capacity beginning in September. This will involve TATL and TPAC routes with some routes being cut while others are moved to seasonal service. No word yet on affected routes. Full story here:

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=11240


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
207 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2829 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17755 times:

Given that DL's entire mechanism for avoiding the malaise that other carriers have had was aggressive international expansion, this could be significant. Or it could just reflect the synergies of the NW tie up.

Either way, bad times ahead.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17735 times:

webcast on right now:

http://metameetings.com/webcasts/jpm...aviation09/live/fplayer/delta.html



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17654 times:

So, it appears that DL's quest to flee the "extremely competitive" US domestic market for "higher yielding" international destinations is not working.

I remember how, a couple of years ago, DL was basically bragging about how they would be able to charge higher fares on the international routes and "be profitable."

The thing is is that these carriers cannot continue to run from competition. It will always catch up to them. They can run, but they can't hide. They need to stop trying to run from competition and, instead, embrace it.

The people they serve want good service, but affordable fares, and these carriers are just going to have to accept reality. High fares are not, nor ever will be the instant road to profitability.

These carriers need to stop living in the "High Yield-La La Land" and come back to Earth. They need to put the customers first and provide them with great service at affordable prices.


User currently offlineMrLurker From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 48 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17591 times:

Due to declining demand, the only rational response is to reduce supply in specific markets. I fail to understand how this equates to "running from competition".

User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17564 times:



Quoting Airfrnt (Reply 1):
Given that DL's entire mechanism for avoiding the malaise that other carriers have had was aggressive international expansion, this could be significant.

Many other carriers were embracing the same general philosophy. I wonder what Plan B looks like.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13529 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17562 times:
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Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
So, it appears that DL's quest to flee the "extremely competitive" US domestic market for "higher yielding" international destinations is not working.

We've read the reports on how international J traffic is down 25% YOY. Their strategy was good for the time. You cannot have the expenses of a network airline without the high yeilding long haul traffic to pay for many of the costs.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
These carriers need to stop living in the "High Yield-La La Land" and come back to Earth. They need to put the customers first and provide them with great service at affordable prices.

DL is better at that than many legacies. Their problem is CASM. They have a tough job ahead of them. For without expanding international traffic, FL is going to eat their lunch.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineFlightwatcher From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17457 times:

Meanwhile, stateside observers have been keeping a close eye on where traffic would be cut at some of the smaller hubs the new Delta controls such as Cincinnati, Detroit and Memphis. In a story published in Tuesday’s USA Today, Marilyn Adams wrote:

By June, joint Delta-Northwest flying capacity from New York John F. Kennedy Airport will grow nearly 5% year over year, according to flight schedules published by OAG-Official Airline Guide. Flying capacity from Delta’s biggest hub, Atlanta, will increase more than 3%. The Northwest hubs at Detroit, Minneapolis and Memphis will all shrink.

Flying from Delta’s Cincinnati hub — which has been shrinking for years — will fall another 25%, making it about the size of Northwest’s Memphis hub.

But Delta will keep growing in New York and Atlanta, partly because it’s expanding international flying from those gateways. In June, Delta launches its first non-stop flight from New York Kennedy to Tokyo Narita, a Northwest hub.

http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009...ce-more-flights-at-cincinnati-hub/


User currently offlineJFernandez From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17423 times:

So... where does DL go from here? This sounds more like a full strategy change than a selective thinning of underperfoming routes, or are they trumping up the latter for stock reasons?

User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10653 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17400 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
I remember how, a couple of years ago, DL was basically bragging about how they would be able to charge higher fares on the international routes and "be profitable."

A couple of years ago, the economy wasn't in the tank, as it is, now. Would you rather that DL, as well as other carriers, sail blithely along, running full schedules, and half full a/c or do what they can to reduce costs until things improve? The thing is, the airlines (and DL in particular) are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, here on A.net. People are complaining about this current cutback, but if they weren't to do it, I can imagine some of the members complaining that DL wasn't doing enough.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17397 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 7):
FL is going to eat their lunch.

And rightfully so. If DL can't compete with FL, so be it. DL needs to find a way to match FL's fares, make a profit and provide superior service.

Look at AC. AC has been doing much better since they added on-board amenities (PTVs, etc). They did all of that because of competition with WS. WS forced AC to upgrade their service standards. And AC has been doing much better because of it (even though they lost money last quarter).

DL can do the same thing and beat the intense competition they face at their hubs.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 7):
international J traffic is down 25% YOY.

Because, simply, many businesses are not willing to pay for J class anymore. There's nothing the airlines can do about that. It's time to provide great service in Y......


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17256 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
They need to stop trying to run from competition and, instead, embrace it.

Seriously?  Yeah sure

In the already fantastically cut-throat world of US airline business, you intend to convince us that constant undercutting of fares to the point of running at shockingly bad operating losses is something the airlines should "embrace"??

Please...  Yeah sure

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
They need to put the customers first and provide them with great service at affordable prices.

It would also be great if the US government could spend 2 trillion dollars and never have to owe a cent of it at a later date!!....

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 10):
DL needs to find a way to match FL's fares, make a profit and provide superior service.

So basically you are saying that DL needs to magically find a way to do more with less??

Good idea.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 10):
Look at AC.

*cough* Canadian....

Not WS.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 10):
They did all of that because of competition with WS.

No, because of a lack of any serious competitor, that was Canadian.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 10):
It's time to provide great service in Y......

Which DL already does.........


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17255 times:

I'm gonna get flammed here by saying this.

DL... dont bother come to Sydney. There are now 3 other carriers. Two of which are of a very high standard, and one of which has very good new business and first products (UAL). DL, you will have the both the smallest aircraft in the market, and have the highest costs on the route. The 77W, 744 and A380 will all be 15-20% cheaper to operate..in the case of the A380 even more so. Currently you're product isn't competitive price wise, especially in J class. There has been no marketing whatsoever at the Australian end (who's economy is in better shape and who dominated the route in terms of PAX numbers...therefore too important to ignore as you currently are) and you'll have No feed whatsoever when you get here.

With all that in mind. DL.... save yourself a loss making route. Cut back by not starting oz. Redeploy that 77L elsewhere. Of course the trouble is where to? Well I'd suggest somewhere with slightly less competition. Maybe use it to a skyteam hub? Trouble is that damn 77L is just too heavy to send to european hubs like AMS.. the 330 does it much cheaper.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13529 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17256 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 10):
It's time to provide great service in Y......

The issue is Y fares are set by internet clearing houses. For most airlines, its mostly going to be about cutting costs. e.g., AF putting an extra seat in each row in their 77W's... They will have to differentiate on relatively low cost areas (e.g., meals).

Would better service be good? Yes. But how will they pay for the extra f/a's? Pay can only be cut so much and still have good service. DL is in a bind. They need to focus on domestic costs too. (e.g., turn times, replacing MD-80's, etc.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17149 times:

One interesting note from the webcast is the mention that DL hopes to announce terminal plans for JFK by the end of the year.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineFlyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16994 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
These carriers need to stop living in the "High Yield-La La Land" and come back to Earth. They need to put the customers first and provide them with great service at affordable prices.

Unfortunantly, that comes at a cost. To provide great service, you must have great people. When airlines once again realize and reward the value of their employees, "great service" might return. Im not just talking about in flight.. im talking from the ground up. Its hard to provide great anything when you've had your wages slashed 30% while management continues to reward itself with millions each year. Many many companies have retention bonuses to retain top talent. Guess what execs? Its time to retain your top talent employees as well.
While I do provide the best service with what I am given to work with, which as anyone knows who has flown lately is very little, it does get old. Its hard to keep the pace up when everything coming from the company, media etc is so negative.

AA ORD


User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 971 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16949 times:

I sure hope they hold onto MAN, I would be very sad to loose DL.


seemyseems
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16844 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 14):
One interesting note from the webcast is the mention that DL hopes to announce terminal plans for JFK by the end of the year.

Unfortunately that's what they said last year, and the year before that etc.. going all the way back to 1999.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4763 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16799 times:

UAL is cuting international capacity 15%. Does that mean UAL is failing as well?

Proactive capacity management doesn't mean a strategy is failing. It means a strategy is revised. Airlines are fishing where the fish are, and their business models must be adapted to ensure they can easily reallocate, reduce and raise capacity when/where needed.

Delta isn't failing by no means.

The respondents claiming FL will eat DL's lunch, in almost every market where DL flies vs. FL, DL commands a premium.

It would be nice if rationality would return to the forums vs. responding out of knowledge, context or dislike.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16761 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
Unfortunately that's what they said last year, and the year before that etc.. going all the way back to 1999.

Actually no. It was stated last year that a decision on the terminal would be presented by years end but the credit crisis and the inability to obtain financing (an issue you've pointed to several times) is what precluded them from doing so. However, talk of announcing terminal plans has not been a yearly occurrence going back 10 years.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16739 times:

Delta has the people the to provide good service. They have some of the best trained and eger employees anywhere. The problem is that people expect international class service on a 700 mile domestic flight. You cant have it both ways. If you want free wifi, IFE, etc etc you have to pay for it. You talk about Airtran, yes it is a good carrier however, Delta offers the same amenties that Airtran does and typically near the same price. Delta and all other carriers will be cutting back a lot because there bread and butter, the biz traveller is cutting back on travel.

Delta will fly to Sydney and im sure they are well aware of what they are getting into. They are flying there flagship craft with there upgrade product in biz and coach im sure they will do fine on the route. They can pull from the entire US for the flight. They can fill the plane in the east in ATL and add more pax from the west into LAX.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16739 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
Proactive capacity management doesn't mean a strategy is failing. It means a strategy is revised. Airlines are fishing where the fish are, and their business models must be adapted to ensure they can easily reallocate, reduce and raise capacity when/where needed.

 checkmark I don't think that this announcement spells doom and gloom for DL at all. We know that demand slackens in September, and we also know that airlines announce plans for certain routes many months in advance. Those two things combined make capacity changes in September relatively unsurprising. If DL had scheduled 20% less capacity in September when they initially did the schedules and now was announcing a 10% INCREASE (for the same amount of flying that we see today), would people be talking about how great their performance is?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16579 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 10):
It's time to provide great service in Y......

Service level is about all that defines one carrier from the other anymore. That starts with attitude, and that attitude has to be present from the top floor all the way down. (WN)

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 11):
Which DL already does.........

I disagree. When my knees (I'm 5'8") are almost buried in the seat ahead of me on a DL757, yet I have another 2 inches of wiggle room on FLs' 737 or 717, I'd say FL is offering more.
I don't care about IFE or internet, and loath the day mobile phone service is there.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDLflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 441 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16561 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
The respondents claiming FL will eat DL's lunch, in almost every market where DL flies

Yeah i wanted to say something but i just laughed at that comment!


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16565 times:



Quoting OA412 (Reply 19):
However, talk of announcing terminal plans has not been a yearly occurrence going back 10 years.

On these boards it has been, I'm not going to go back and quote people as I don't think that's helpful but definitely there have been posters who every year quote somebody at DL and say "this is the year". I'm hoping DL gets their JFK terminal situation straightened out, it's one of the biggest negatives for them which is almost always brought up in trip reports regarding DL and JFK.

The Chief Executive of the Port Authority Christopher Ward did a very cool thing last week, he participated in a week long Q & A on the New York Times website (try to get someone from the MTA to answer a question).

There were many good questions asked, one of which was from a frequent flyer about new terminals to which the the Chief Executive discussed engineering studies currently underway for LGA's CTB, EWR's Terminal A and JFK's T2 and T3.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...bout-the-port-authority/#more-6801



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 Alitalia744 : Interesting comparitive given DL's 757 seat pitch is 31" which is exactly the same as FL's 73Gs. FL's 717s have 30". Now, DL's seats are older, which
26 LipeGIG : At least they will keep Latin America almost untouched (in fact will grow a little) showing that at least yields at this time continue the same or jus
27 DLflynhayn : Im 6'0 feet tall and have no problem with a DL757 from KOA-LAX in Y-class
28 Alitalia744 : C'mon now! DL's terminal situation is a joke at JFK. They spruced it up a little to make it look more attractive, but operationally it still lacks. N
29 MAH4546 : Their YOY capacity to LatAm continues to shrink, albeit the shrink is nothing significant.
30 STT757 : Why were you making a connection at JFK, don't you live in New York?..
31 TVNWZ : Simple as that. This has nothing to do with positioning, strategy or anything else. the world economy is tanking---fast. DL is just responding to tha
32 United787 : Agreed! I think the Australia routes could be considered EGO routes for DL which is not a good idea in this economy. Maybe there will be room for a f
33 AmricanShamrok : I'd say SNN would be very vulnerable if they make these cuts...
34 Alitalia744 : Was in CVG all last week at P&G, was meeting a friend to go out west together, so had to make the airside connection.
35 Transpac787 : We're speaking of international service. DL, in Y, offers much greater/better cabin amenities than any other legacy. A single free alcoholic drink wi
36 LAXdude1023 : This annoucment makes much sense actually. Cuts are expected with almost every merger. Just about everyone with a brain on here was saying that there
37 Iflykpdx : Is DL going to be the only Skyteam carrier flying that route?
38 Rwy04LGA : If DL had gotten PA's Pacific routes and UA had gotten PA's Atlantic routes, would you have said that UA's foray into the Oz market was also motivate
39 Nwaesc : Wait, what happened to management's mantra that this was a "merger of addition, not subtraction?" What of their assertion just a couple of weeks ago
40 United1 : I would have.... opening up a new market (where you have basically zero brand recognition and no feed) against two entrenched airlines and a new LCC
41 Haggis79 : SkyTeam has almost no FFs in Australia/NZ, and frankly, I doubt there are enough of them on the US side to make the route a success...
42 United787 : It isn't exclusive to *Alliance, Qantas is part of One World. Since V Australia has already beaten DL to the punch, maybe DL should just code-share w
43 WorldTraveler : Remember that over the past few downturns, DL has been the carrier that has led the industry in cutting back. Other carriers WILL be cutting or they w
44 NWAdeicer : I think it's penciled in right under "No frontline jobs will be eliminated" and "No hubs will be closed"
45 RwSEA : What you don't mention, though, is that DL still has old, short seats with absolutely no head support (let alone winged headrests) on their 763 fleet
46 LH469 : Is there any DL comment on which under performing routes will be cut? I will be curious to see the details and if DL conducts a press release with the
47 WorldTraveler : Given the data released in the investor conference, DL's ability to withstand the competitive challenge in a new market is substantially greater than
48 Atlwest1 : Wow primitive IFE? I find it far on par to other carriers IFE. Old aircraft? Not to terribly older compared to other carriers flying similar routes. S
49 Bobnwa : Come on now. We all know that the above statements were made before the worst recession since 1929. Do you want DL to just stand pat during all his o
50 FFlyerWorld : For all these naysayers on this thread... See below comment in today's Transportation Report in the Wall Street Journal - I agree completely with his
51 ANstar : Exactly! There are hardly any Skyteam members in Australia. Much more Oneworld and STAR members as well as a fair few Virgin Blue Velocity FF'rs. Giv
52 Alitalia744 : On the Australia thing. 1) DL has lower overall operating costs, so can sustain the route on a network basis better than say, UAL. 2) DL today, suppli
53 OA412 : I'm aware of that but as we all well know, anyone can make any statement they want. I do not remember a yearly OFFICIAL statement from DL regarding t
54 OA412 : Excellent analysis! While you're very much correct that there is no guarantee that DL will make money on this route, there is also no guarantee that
55 ANstar : But higher costs than the other airlines on the route. I mean V Australia pay their CAPTAINS about $90k US ($120K AUD) and their cabin crew don't get
56 VS11 : The only hope for DL is actually NW's management as DL has always been a rather mediocre market follower. They have nothing new and original to offer.
57 Deputydawghere : Please provide your evidence substantiating your claim made about the other U.S. carrier being most vulnerable in the LAX - SYD market; specifically
58 Cubsrule : Other things being equal, wouldn't the new entrant be most vulnerable?
59 Alitalia744 : I would advise everyone who is predicting doom/gloom to go and listen to each carriers webcast. They are all available via the JPmorgan webcast site.
60 MasseyBrown : Interesting. CO presented the their version of same data showing themselves in 1st place. CO cited margin; DL cited dollars. Bastian also bragged tha
61 Deputydawghere : Good point my friend. I'd just like to see WorldTraveler's evidence substantiating his claim about UA, "the increased competition will hurt someone c
62 AirNZ : Sorry, but they are absolutely nothing of the sort! Yes, and if that's what saves a lot of money, which in turn profits their shareholders/workforce
63 Rwy04LGA : Wait, what happened to the economy? ' U S - B A S E D ' ! UA is a US-based *A member. Is QF US-based?
64 Deputydawghere : Thanks. I'm glad someone else recognizes this, and it's always at UA's expense.
65 NWAESC : It wasn't exactly booming when they kept trotting these catch phrases out, either....
66 Klkla : I would choose ATL over any other U.S. for clearing customs and making connections. It's modern and has a great transportation system within the term
67 Haggis79 : while ATL isn't all that bad, I prefer DTW and MSP...
68 Mayor : And, has any of that happened, yet?? They MAY have been a market follower, but it proved very profitable for them, in the past. What exactly is there
69 Nwaesc : That may be an optimistic timetable. JMHO. LOL. Apparently dry wit doesn't translate well on the interwebs... Did you not see my "sarcasm mode off" n
70 Lufthansa : Ahhh yes, BUT the dreaded CASM will be the very highest of the lot. That means in order to make a profit (rather than in order to minimise a loss) DL
71 STT757 : I wonder how many passengers a day CO is going supply UA's South Pacific network, adding CO as a alliance partner can only help UA's current position
72 Lufthansa : On 2nd thoughts, Maybe they need to operate that flight as a Triangle flight to BNE and MEL on alternating days After Sydney. That may be away to get
73 SurfandSnow : Well everyone, when you want to know what could happen in the future, it's always helpful to look at the past... Delta has cut and downgauged several
74 Nwarooster : Just my Bigger does NOT always mean better. Also, the bigger they are the harder they fall.
75 B707forever : I don't see what the big deal is here. They're "right sizing" as a result of the merger and in response to the Economic Climate. 10% is less than I th
76 Aviateur : My feelings.... Cape Town, gone. Malaga, gone. Budapest, gone. Pisa, Prague, Lyon, gone (or seasonal) Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Shannon, maybe gone.[Edite
77 Rwy04LGA : Your usual drivel. BTW, where the hell did you learn English or do you just make this stuff up on the fly? Pick one...espouse OR spout...not espout!
78 Rwy04LGA : Damn! I'm glad I made it there in time. I was looking forward to going back.
79 Af773atmsp : Hopefully MSP won't be affected by this. It would be tragic if we lost non-stop service to London.
80 CompensateMe : But MSP will be affected. CDG is likely counted among the 11-13% decease in Atlantic flying - but it's always been scheduled as seasonal service. And
81 Cws818 : The executives of the airlines certainly do - call it ego or competitiveness - but it clearly does exist. Since the executives are agents of the corp
82 Jetlanta : Umm, he's not Nostradamus.
83 777STL : You can't look at it from that macro of a standpoint. Costs are one thing, revenue is quite another. If the flight DL can't generate the revenue by k
84 Evan767 : What? Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Shannon... maybe gone??? I don't think so. What are your sources on these three? Also, is Delta just deciding not to give
85 Nwarooster : Northwest tried it, back in the 80s or early 90s and gave it up. Northwest fought hard for the route but could not cut it it.
86 Frostbite : Well, he did state that these were his feelings, nothing more.... Granted the idea of DL dropping AMS and FRA is pretty ridiculous. Actually, if DL d
87 CompensateMe : Many of these 100 passengers simply went to Expedia, Orbitz or their travel agency, asked for a quote on a flight to SYD and were given Qantas option
88 777STL : I believe AA ran HNL-SYD for a period in the 80s as well, with DC10s. It's not a huge route to begin with, Australia dominates the route and yet the
89 OA412 : Indeed they did but NW also had other factors working against it. Most importantly, NW flew LAX-SYD nonstop just 3 days per week. You simply cannot c
90 WorldTraveler : I don't think it's ego at all. It's about going to the top markets in the world. OZ is just as important as a global market for the new DL as LHR was
91 Post contains links Lufthansa : Thank you. And so did CO too earlier before it. There were even CO DC-10s in BNE and MEL, complete with red and gold colours and 'the meatball'. On t
92 EXAAUADL : I have to agree with you...DL will not have connection in LAX to a number of important west and mountain cities. They are going to try and make it on
93 OA412 : Inferior to whom? QF? Likely. UA? Highly debateable given that they operate the route with the 744. They should both offer lie flat seats in biz whil
94 Centrair : I think that DL will reduce Asia and Europe by using the combined fleet more wisely. There has been talk of shifting some 767s to Asia and some 744s a
95 CompensateMe : They did fly Oska-Sydney, but they also flew Los Angeles-Sydney nonstop (around the same time the airline was canceling A320/A330/A340 orders, deferr
96 Silver764 : I disagree. I last flew LAX-SYD in November on the 380. Everyone knew what aircraft they were flying on. The excitement was palpable. DL's FF base is
97 BMI727 : Everything you say makes sense. Don't forget that almost all of the auto manufacturers have signifcant operations in Southern California. Toyota has
98 Silver764 : Obviously as the 380 was promoted, simple fact is the general flying public has no idea what aircraft they are on. its been discussed may times on th
99 Atlwest1 : I would rather have the experience of the Delta or UA or QF crew over the all attractive V Australia crew. DL offers complimentary drinks with meal se
100 Lufthansa : Well you asked to be corrected so here goes. You're wrong. NW did in fact fly non-stop from Sydney to LAX, with brand new 744s at the time. The servi
101 WorldTraveler : You absolutely can because those system level costs DO speak to costs at the individual flight level. Unless you have some specific evidence that say
102 Lufthansa : The frequent flyer base in Australia do. I'm not talking so much economy passsengers here, but I'm taking those in premium classes. Most will be able
103 CompensateMe : ...and your frequent flyer base in Australia is largely attached to QF. Very little hope for DL to attract these passengers, so not really relevant t
104 Jetlanta : Thank you for taking the time to provide a PROFESSIONAL perspective on here. How long ago were the same arguments being made regarding the U.S.-South
105 WorldTraveler : By that logic, airlines would never be able to expand their networks but they somehow manage to do so. Obviously FF programs drive loyalty but do mor
106 CompensateMe : I wasn't clear enough -- I was referring to QF's top elites. Come on WorldTraveler, I have no doubts that DL has the potential to be successful to Au
107 Lufthansa : Go and look at the recent domestic figures released for DL. Have a look at the costs for say JFK-LAX vs say the costs of the Shuttle LGA-BOS and you'
108 Lufthansa : The South African market didnt already have a US carrier and it also didn't have an South African Carrier come along with an even bigger comittment a
109 Lufthansa : United isn't using the 77E yet and despite the rumours it hasn't appeared in the timetables...its all still 744 at this stage.
110 United1 : UA is not going to be using the 77E on the route, both Australia flights will remain operated with 744 equipment....
111 Jetlanta : Obviously. But you didn't get the point. Anyway, do you REALLY think that V Australia CAN outlast Delta in this market? Not WILL, but CAN? The econom
112 LAXdude1023 : And you believed them? I personally prefer DFW and IAH, but for the amount of traffic ATL has, it is quite efficient. DL might get alot of traffic fr
113 Lufthansa : Well if they're prepared to go down that path, then they may well succeed but dont forget Pan Am and TWA thought that about Atlantic. Look who's stil
114 OA412 : Outdoing DL in what sense? DL is larger than VS in every metric. VS is still around largely because of a highly restrictive bilateral that shielded t
115 YVR1968 : I guess you are being sarcastic, but I seriously doubt we will be seeing DL in MEL anytime soon or anytime at all for that matter. In fact, I wouldn'
116 Lufthansa : For a start, when VA made it public, there as a duopoly and overpriced market. After VA came along it didnt. Next, VA has a customer base in the bigg
117 Lufthansa : Oh and not to go on about it, but I would think this route is more like what happened with India then South Africa. JFK-BOM on 77L nonstop... all the
118 CompensateMe : Sorry, but your average tourist doesn't know the difference between a CRJ or A380 let alone know which airline offers gourmet meals and PTVs. It isn'
119 Atlwest1 : Pulled out partly because of an unstable situation beyond there control and a tanking economy. They are only doing what others have done. VS AY and pr
120 Deputydawghere : I remember hearing about NW violating some regulation; resulting in them not being able to fly to Australia after that point. Thanks for bringing tha
121 MasseyBrown : I'm not criticizing DL for reducing flying, a necessary step; but it does seem semi-wacky to brag about it. It's like GM claiming to be better at clo
122 UA772IAD : Makes perfect sense. I interviewed a university dean for a story today on job losses and labor unions and he specifically cited Delta's international
123 OA412 : AI's 77L is newer and larger than DL's 77L? NYC-BOM turned into a bloodbath because the Indian carriers on the route trashed yields. It had nothing t
124 LACA773 : Good point LAXdude. I was actually thinking, CVG will see service remain to CDG & AMS for KL & AF connecting flights, DTW will go down a bit but not
125 UA772IAD : Actually, we are. While DL has announced SYD, UA is cutting capacity by operating a 777 on the SFO-SYD run during the Southern Hemisphere summer, and
126 Lufthansa : Also Premium traffic is down 20% according to IATA across the pacific, at a time when capacity is about to double. Of that premium traffic the proport
127 ANstar : They are no longer planning on operating the 777 to Australia.
128 NWAESC : Lol. No, I didn't. I rarely believe anything that comes from corporate communications... 'Course when anyone expressed doubt(s) early on, it was usua
129 OA412 : Yes it was put on hold. Unless I'm mistaken, rumor was that it would start in 2010.
130 Jfk777 : Last week a DL Lax to SYD in BIZ was $6000 and QF was two and a half times. DL's 77L have beautiful BIZ Elite seating which is much better then QF pr
131 777STL : I still disagree. Especially when you consider the Aussie(the pax you want) traveling public is much more savvy when it comes to travel than the Amer
132 AirNZ : I'll not even bother commenting on most of the laughable assertions contained except to mention that you rather conveniently forget to mention both t
133 WA707atMSP : Toyota has a marketing office in Southern California, but their engineering center is in the Detroit area. Most of Toyota's suppliers also have their
134 Lufthansa : Then you don't know many middle class Austarlians and I dare say you've never set foot in the place. Every single travelling one of them knows about
135 Bobnwa : Why would KL do any better or worse on the flight than NW, since it a joint venture flight. If the flight was dropped by DL the same circumstances wo
136 WorldTraveler : DL has never said it has any intention of taking the most elite from any airline other than through corporate contracts they might win. DL doesn't fl
137 Cubsrule : I don't think that the question is whether DL can succeed in time. I think the question is, given the opportunity cost involved, whether DL will give
138 WorldTraveler : But I can assure you that if DL loses money, other carrier will too or at least dramatically reduced performance. UA's costs are higher both systemwi
139 Cubsrule : Other carriers' performance doesn't matter unless/until one of them blinks. If UA is willing to lose money for 2 years and DL is only willing to lose
140 LAXdude1023 : What you are saying may be more true about the American traveler, but definately not about the Austrailian traveler, believe me I would know. I work
141 United1 : Its not that simple of a comparison and you know it.... There are hundreds of factors that affect the CASM of a particular route: Operating Costs (Cr
142 CompensateMe : and I never said DL is going to "own" the US market -- I said that thus far DL's targeting this flight toward US POS. There are 450K American visitor
143 Thestooges : I would personally believe that the "bread and butter" of the US - Australia routes would be made up of people who fly economy and who purchase thier
144 Deputydawghere : You know what my friend, you're talking to the wind when it comes to that guy. We both know UA will remain in the LAX - SYD market long after Delta h
145 Mariner : But those start up costs (the venture capital) of V Australia make no contribution to CASM. Much of the money is already booked and accounted for, re
146 Frostbite : Wow, I amazed that any business is in the habit of shelling out $15000 to move their people LAX-SYD nowadays. I wonder if that value is really repres
147 Mayor : First of all, he was comparing DL's 77L's with the a/c UA uses on the route, the 744, not NW's 744's which will get a new coat of paint, and when pos
148 Deputydawghere : He didn't differentiate between the LAX or SFO market, or the type of aircraft when discussing the age of UA's fleet, "UA's costs are higher both sys
149 Nwaesc : I had forgotten about JV...I would assume so? I was thinking in the "maybe-they'll-have-KL-do-it-and-free-up-an-aircraft-for-another-route" vein... S
150 Mayor : Sorry, but the discussion at hand was DL's viability in the LAX-SYD market and not SFO-SYD. Therefore, since UA operates the 744 in the LAX-SYD marke
151 Deputydawghere : I agree with you about the point of that discussion, however, whenever the gentleman I'm speaking of discusses anything about DL, historically UA's p
152 Mayor : Well, I believe that's because UA is probably who they'll have the easiest time competing against as opposed to the other carriers.
153 Deputydawghere : Now I understand where you're coming from. How long were you employed with DL before you retired?
154 Viscount724 : NW operated LAX-SYD nonstop with 744s for a while, 2 or 3 times a week if memory correct. AA also had the financial resources to make a stand when th
155 Mayor : Look, I just said that UA would be the easiest, not that they would be a pushover. Touchy, touchy, touchy.
156 Deputydawghere : You're right. Thanks
157 Jfk777 : WE have been down a simialr road before, in the early 1990's AA flew Dc-10's via HNL, NW flew 744 3 times weekly LAX-SYD & 3 times JFK to Osaka to SY
158 Deputydawghere : Thanks for your correction.
159 CompensateMe : Welcome to 2009. Just 10 years ago, most people booked such trips through their travel agents (and, less frequently, by contacting their favorite air
160 Lufthansa : They're tough on them but I very much doubt there would be very many at all that would say that they'd prefer a US carier. I wouldn't be so sure of t
161 CompensateMe : And you really believe that in an era of a weak Australian dollar that Australian residents are going to throw their money to Qantas? To paraphrase C
162 Mariner : I don't see how the weak Australian dollar affects Qantas, except that many may choose other destinations than the US - because it is so expensive wh
163 LAXdude1023 : I wouldnt count that in just yet. We have yet to see how DL will preform. Niether you nor I know if DL will succeed. Im curious why you think certain
164 Lufthansa : This is laughable. No such thing will be happening. Everyday QF competes with carriers who's costs are far far below what any US carrier can get them
165 Deputydawghere : I wouldn't be so sure about a lower costing ticket winning out in this case. Yes, there's no doubt DL will claim a piece of the prized LAX-SYD revenu
166 WorldTraveler : All of those costs are reported to the DOT and can be compared between carriers. They are published in Aviation Daily on a regular basis. So, Virgin
167 Lufthansa : Well im sorry but that is exactly what happens here. It's because the products aren't equal and all things aren't equal, there's a good frequent flye
168 CompensateMe : Another uninformed statement. How long have VS and BA been serving the LHR-JFK market? Or maybe should I write how long did Bermuda II protect VS and
169 Deputydawghere : I'm just curious, how many times have you made the 14.5 hour LAX - SYD flight? Also, what evidence do you have supporting your claim, "I'm certain mo
170 Post contains links Mariner : As I said, they are accounted for. In the just reported six months, Virgin Blue made an operating profit of A$60 million. However, sour fuel hedging
171 United1 : Not on a per-route/flight basis they are not, which is exactly what you were talking about..... If you have UAs actual US-Australia CASM and RASM P/L
172 Post contains images Mariner : And my point is that because of the weak A$ there are other places - cheaper places - for them to vacation than the United States. A vacation isn't j
173 CompensateMe : Twice. Once with a tour operator utilizing Air New Zeland one way and Qantas the other, the other time with United. I've also flown United SFO-SYD. O
174 Deputydawghere : That's ok buddy, I'll say it for you. Without a doubt, Qantas is one of the world's best airlines, along with Singapore, Cathay, British, Lufthansa,
175 Mariner : It isn't irrelevant at all. There is a proven nexus between the relative strength of the US dollar to other currencies and the tourism industry. It i
176 ANstar : Don't under estimate how loyally blind alot of Australian frequent flyers are. Qantas are able to charge a nice premium over any carrier operating in
177 Mariner : Airlines are like supermarkets - they don't sell what the pax want to buy. Airlines sell what they want the pax to buy. It may cost more to fly, say,
178 PA101 : Maybe the thread-title should be changed to "DL to OZ - a good idea?"... Let me give you my 2 cents about this as an outsider: 1. QF is surely a stron
179 777STL : The weak Australian dollar is temporary. A year ago it was worth 90 cents on the USD. At least on the Australian side, DL will have no brand recognit
180 LAXdude1023 : Out of curiosity, when was the last time you looked at a tarriff display for fares from LAX-SYD? Its obviously been a while for you. Im at work tomor
181 Jetlanta : LAX, there is plenty of industry research that supports exactly what he is saying. Particularly involving the U.S. market. Most of it is proprietary
182 Colts001 : The main question is not whether DL can make LAX-SYD work, it is whether DL wants to make it work. DL if they don't get the yields usually does not st
183 MaverickM11 : Anyone want to venture a guess as to what they're cutting? And also are they cutting 12% versus what they currently have scheduled for Fall09, or vers
184 AirNZ : With regard to "Another uninformed statement"......why do you consistently ignore the fact that BII was a joint treaty involving your own government,
185 LAXdude1023 : Not really. DL is offering absolutely nothing new. A double connect through LAX and ATL? How is that different from a double connect through LAX/SFO
186 BA744PHX : Well someone will fail it will either be V Australia or Delta. Honestly considering the amount of flights V Australia is coming with compared with DL
187 Cubsrule : I wonder whether DL's new service will get QF into DFW-SYD faster than they otherwise would enter the route; the double-connect through XYZ and LAX--
188 LAXdude1023 : Im actually giving DL a decent chance at survival on this route. DL is in relatively good shape right now, better than most of the legacies and bette
189 Cubsrule : DL has already cut a bunch of money-losing flying at LAX once. I have a hard time believing that so much has changed since then that they'll have a l
190 Nickofatlanta : Wouldn't ORD be too far north? Seems a bit silly to fly, for example, SYD-ORD-MIA compared to SYD-DFW-MIA. DFW's location would seem to be a lot more
191 Cubsrule : All true. OTOH, though, ORD is probably a somewhat stronger local market, and traffic to Florida can flow over LAX.
192 Klkla : Completely disagree. Their Biz Elite seat is exactly the same as NZ (hard product) and most of their FF's are very satisfied with their service. Thei
193 Nitepilot79 : RIP Atlanta-Monrovia, big surprise .
194 Atlwest1 : Why is it a big surprise? I believe there is over a million Liberian ex pats living in the US and Canada. Not to mention Liberia has always had ties(e
195 Frostbite : Monrovia service has been shifted up to JFK, not cut. ATL originating passengers will be able to connect in DKR (or JFK of course).
196 Nitepilot79 : I think the main reason why I scoffed at this route is because it should (IMHO) run with a 777 regardless of passenger density.
197 Anstar : QF have already cut some SYD-LAX flights. The 3rd flight is no longer, so they now just have 2 x daily so I'll doubt much more capcity will be coming
198 Mariner : I've never been a great fan of that potential route. I understand that DFW is the big AA hub, but there is a huge Australian infrastructure of busine
199 OA412 : Why in the world for?
200 MAH4546 : There isn't, but I don't think it's that relevant. There are Australian Consulates in Atlanta, Denver (as you mentioned), Houston and Miami, but I th
201 Cubsrule : The route isn't about the business connections on the west coast; it's about the demand from the rest of the country, much of which isn't well-served
202 LAXdude1023 : Which has nothing to do with anything. Theres not a Vietnamese or Russian Consulate in Los Angeles, theyre both in San Fran. Yet traffic to both Russ
203 Mariner : I wouldn't argue that. I don't see any of your listed destinations as optimum for Qantas. Just as I don't see DFW as optimum for Qantas. I understand
204 LAXdude1023 : Chicago has way too little local traffic to make a flight work on that either. What is going to make or brake a flight to a city not on the west coas
205 Mariner : I'm not advocating it. I don't think Qantas should expand into any US interior city (beyond the present flights to NYC). They may, of course, ignore
206 LAXdude1023 : The Australian visas are a fomality for citizens of most countries. They are issued electronically and can be done through a travel agent, any airlin
207 Mariner : Generally, that is true. But I have been with people at LAX who have had a problem with their visas or passports and have missed their flights, or, s
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