Delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1044 posts, RR: 1 Posted (2 years 11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12757 times:
I heard from friend in Poland that LOT have problems with staying afloat, if they not get new cash next week. Also he said that the operating license may be revoked due to more strengthen EU laws if no fresh cash will come in. It seems that LOT has sold previously almost all assets and nothing is left to sell. Also government cash injection seem to be not so easy nowadays. What are your bets ? LH won the fight against LOT and will take over the haul Polish market and increase the existing feeding flights to VIE, ZRH, FRA, MUC, BRU ?
I note with horror that the fuel hedge fiasco is confirmed. I don't see how they can stay afloat now. State aid isn't allowed,and likely isn't available.
LH won't buy now, so yes, it's going to be goodbye. Sad.
I imagine LH will move in, and the budget boys will have a good time, too (even if FR is sulking over fees and terminal arrangements at WAW).
Even less choice for us regular travellers, and especially to KRK!
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 10889 posts, RR: 27 Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12313 times:
I'm no expert on Polish aviation, but I would guess that if LOT is near bankruptcy then an LH takeover isn't far behind.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Seemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 946 posts, RR: 8 Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11833 times:
Well AF-KL could benefit from them, and Aeroflot have been eyeing up some carriers too. But I think AF-KL will concentrate on OK first then perhaps consider LO.
Sadly though, LOT probably won't last much longer, and LH probably will end up taking control, if not them then maybe Aeroflot or AF-KL.
Qazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 297 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11801 times:
Quoting NCB (Reply 3): LH would probably be better off starting a new operation from scratch rather than inheriting a messy operation.
I completely agree! LH's strategy of acquiring airlines and maintaining their respective identities within the LH Group (SWISS, Brussels Airlines, Austrian Airlines and BMI) are based on capitalizing on these airlines excellent reputations - one that unfortunately LOT does not have. The LH Italia concept is magnificent and obviously a strike of genius based on its preliminary success and the ambitious expansion plans recently announed. I would love to see a LH Poland version - and strongly believe that it would be LH's best option on capitalizing on the Pollish market.
PlutekPlutek From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11494 times:
Quoting Qazar (Reply 7): Well AF-KL could benefit from them, and Aeroflot have been eyeing up some carriers too. But I think AF-KL will concentrate on OK first then perhaps consider LO.
Why not BA ? Oneworld has a gap in Central Europe with the exception of Malev. Wouldn't LOT's network complement BA/Malev/Finnair coverage in Europe?
Seemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 946 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11295 times:
Quoting PlutekPlutek (Reply 8): Why not BA ? Oneworld has a gap in Central Europe with the exception of Malev. Wouldn't LOT's network complement BA/Malev/Finnair coverage in Europe?
I'm not sure, BA always seem very silent when it comes to buy-outs.
Aviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1155 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11279 times:
I hope somebody bails them out, one way or another.
It distresses me when classic flag carriers go under. Like Swissair and Sabena. It still makes my head spin to think that Swissair -- Swissair! -- and Sabena are gone. It's just not right. Like Pan Am.
Lot would disappear, and some hideous "AirPoland.Com" or some such would rise in its place. Yech!
Sentimental, I know.
PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
Jetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2982 posts, RR: 10 Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11111 times:
Quoting SyeaphanR (Reply 1): State aid isn't allowed,and likely isn't available.
Sometimes it amazes me how governments save their national airlines.
Maybe they should sell themselves to Lufthansa.
Worked for too many airlines to list. Banktupcy after bankruptcy after bankruptcy.
MarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 87 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9869 times:
Only Lufthansa comes to my mind... But not sure why they would buy LO... On the other hand they can get a good carrier with a good reputation for peanuts
INNflyer From Austria, joined Dec 2008, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9527 times:
Poland definitely needs an airline- 40 million people in a big country with very limited highways. Even if LH would take over international feed/routes, they would still need domestic service.
AsoRock From Nigeria, joined May 2006, 285 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9355 times:
Is the crisis facing LOT (if any) the result of the global economic situation or does it stem from underlying inefficiencies? That would be a shame because Poland's economy was very vibrant and had a promising future at least until 2008.
Mgmacius From Poland, joined Jun 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9244 times:
Quoting AsoRock (Reply 13): Is the crisis facing LOT (if any) the result of the global economic situation or does it stem from underlying inefficiencies? That would be a shame because Poland's economy was very vibrant and had a promising future at least until 2008.
It started years ago - LOT was too ignorant to change during 90's and then they started selling out everything they owned - now it's empty shell with no value. They own nothing - toilet paper maybe It's terrible shame - this was great airline, but you can't survive if you are still using 80's tactics and 80's (at best!) customer service quality...
As an example - >3 years ago I was planning trip to MEL, so my first choice was LOT. You know, national carrier and so on. So I went to main LOT office in Marriott Hotel (opposite to Central Station) in Warsaw and asked some quite old lady about price of the ticket, availability and all details. You can't say she was rude - no, she was just a bit unpleasant. But that's fine - only thing I needed was some reliable information. No way, man!
First, there was a problem to find any connection at all - they are not flying to Australia for years, so she had to find with codeshares. It took more then 10 minutes, with rather high price (way too high for my estimates!) and another problem - they won't sell me this ticket. I need to go somwhere else, to travel agency or other place to buy it. But not directly from them... That was enough - I decided to look somwhere else. Around 1 km east from there was (not anymore!) BA office. All it took was 5 minutes, lots of smiles and such a nice service, that I decided to buy it right away. Oh, price was bettter too - 30% less with no bargains.
That should explain a LOT
MarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 87 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8989 times:
Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 15): So the best would be to close this mess and start from scratch may be by using Euro LOT structure.
I doubt that LO is a bigger mess than OS.
If LH would save and take-over LO they would probably be able to negotiate a carte blanche
and do whatever they want to turn the airline profitable..
So massive cuts in the administration can be foreseen..
I wonder if they would keep the TATL flights...
LO maybe does not have such an excellent reputation as OS but comparing to
BMI and Brussels Airlines they are good.
I believe that in the end it would be a good business for Lufthansa as labor costs in Poland are significantly lower.
K2 and C0 should be liquidated asap
and LO should keep a mixed fleet of Embraers (exercising its options for the 95) and B787
WROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 567 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8925 times:
Polish govm't is still the majority shareowner and they will not let it go easily (unless like with AZ they will have to). They just screwed themselves with the oil hedgings and the fact that they had 8 CEOs within the last 3 years does not help at all either. I think that Polish Transport Ministry is trying to sell it to a "big" asian airline.
If you ask me they have too many union groups and people who are from the previous era, where you did not have to do anything and you were still paid.
I do not think that STAR has helped them in any way, there are just too many airliners competing around (LH, OS, SK...).
Notsofrqntflr From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 52 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 8453 times:
There was an article on www.gazeta.pl (http://miasta.gazeta.pl/trojmiasto/1,89917,6367149,LOT_lata__ale_przestal_placic.html, unfortunately there isn't an english translation, should you want one please e-mail me and I will translate it for you) about LOT not paying their airport fees at local polish airports (Gdańsk, Wrocław). So I suppose that also supports the theory they aren't in good financial shape.
And I know it is just a preference, but I have never liked LOT, and whenever I had a choice (paying my own fare) I would always go with anyone else, even if it meant higher fare.
Danfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1705 posts, RR: 12 Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 8439 times:
Quoting AsoRock (Reply 13): Is the crisis facing LOT (if any) the result of the global economic situation or does it stem from underlying inefficiencies? That would be a shame because Poland's economy was very vibrant and had a promising future at least until 2008.
I remember reading they hedged fuel at something ridiculous like $130! I should imagine someone will pay with their job for that mistake, if they stay afloat.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
Delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1044 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8011 times:
I think LOT was never making any profit other than from selling assets given to them by the government as a gift and the sale of such later on to keep the company going. I think right after AZ should be LO, almost the same mess if not worse.
I also know that LOT is avoiding to fuel up planes at their homebase Warsaw because of the fuel hedge and uplift just as much as they can abroad. So the long haul flights are a pain in the ass for them currently. On the other side it is right not to pay airports such as Wroclaw, as LOT most likely also subsidize the Ryanair flights there which pay most likely just the 1 EUR per passenger all incl. if they not get a bunch of money on top of this.
Also that they use stupid new terminal with high passenger fees in Warsaw is not understandable, if I would be LOT I would insist to move to the cheaper Etituda Terminal even though that it is not possible. How it can be that there are two different set of charges at the same airport. This all plus that Star Alliance partners stealing the passengers away, contributing to their fault. The problem is clearly that they dont have a management with control over things as they keep changing every 2 months or so.
In general I believe they have skilled pilots and a decent European product except that they dont have control over revenue, cost , market and general company administration.
WROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 567 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8011 times:
People responsible for fuel hedging were recently fired. WSJ Polska reported that Polish Misinstry of Transportation is negotiating with Emirates about possible take over. They said that the talks are at the beginning states. Emirates wanted to have a small hub in BBI (the new Berlin Brandenburg International) when it opens, but the plans are blocked by LH. Buying LOT would allow them to do their hub in WAW.
Delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1044 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7999 times:
Forget, Warsaw has not the infrastructure to support a Hub, LOT not the reputation to serve for EK, these rumors were also around Air Berlin which Emriates could have bought cheap incl. the rights to land everywhere in Germany. It is not Emirates policy to buy other airlines or to join alliances. I think there are some statements from Emirates in the internet confirming this. It would be a miracle if Emirates itself invest in it. But who should control this mess ? Emirates from Dubai ? The current LOT management ? What is needed as fresh minded people in LOT. Get rid of the thinking of 80s, these times are over. They have probably good pilots and engineers, but what you can do with pilots and engineers if the commercial department make such bad job ? I think even the mechanics would better manage that airline.
WROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 567 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7905 times:
I think they sold everything already including their aircraft. They are leasing them back????
Looks like Alitalia mess happening with LOT just as they celebrate their 80th anniversary.
25 MarcinGDN: Comparing LO to Alitalia is ridiculous! Maybe the administration "works" like in Rome, but from a a pax's point of view I can't find similarities. Fle
26 SyeaphanR: A couple of months back, Wizzair were claiming that WAW was to close Etiuda, so everyone would pay the higher fees. FR were threatening to quit totall
27 Fyano773: What will happen with the 8 787 LOT has (firm) ordered? The DreamLiner logo is no longer showed up in the front page of the website. Fyano
28 Delta777jet: Most likely the Dreamliner will remain a dream for LOT. MarcinGDN how often you flew Alitalia ? I can tell you the ground staff is similar to LOT. Inf
29 WROORD: I must agree with Delta777jet LOT's level of service sucks bug time. When you fly with thm domestically or intraeurope it is bearable, but if you take
30 Flylot: Please stop being so dramatic. Bad service or not the airline isn't going anywhere, yet. maybe because its been delayed repeatedly.
31 MarcinGDN: Indeed the last time to FCO I took LO, not Alitalia. It was an Ejet not an older-than-me Mad Dog. As being from GDN I don't have any other options to
32 Delta777jet: Exactly Marcin, on yourself you can see why LOT not get the Polish business. You say the times are not good, you like to fly Swiss more than Lufthansa
33 WROORD: Well, LOT needs to be privatized right away, otherwise they can start packing their stuff.
34 MarcinGDN: That's true. If C0 would not have such huge losses, they would open 2 bases - in GDN and KRK. Sounded good - but LO should leave two jets or so in tho
35 WROORD: If LH buys LO, LH will take over all feeder traffic to FRA and MUC, they almost have a monopoly on those routes anyway. LO gives up too easily for exa
36 Flylot: there is are so many inaccuracies in your post that I'm afraid to begin. definitely wrong Your right this is a reason for their downfall. But they've
37 BlueSky1976: Boeing DID NOT lease any additional 767s to nieLOT. AFAIK they are paying the delay compensation, but that's it.[Edited 2009-03-20 01:56:34]
38 Delta777jet: MarcinGDN:I would not be so sure that this is Lufthansa policy. How LOT want to fly to Russia if they were not even allowed to fly the route to Beijin
39 MarcinGDN: Did I say anything about Russia? Expanding eastwards for me means rather Ukraine and maybe Kazkhstan. I think that closing Kaliningrad was a stupid m
40 Boeing4ever: Earlier you claimed LOT pilots couldn't speak English and were all "unqualified". What fight are you talking about!? These two airlines codeshare! No
41 Flylot: right on. just to sum things up this article says LOT has losses of 700 million zl ($206 million) Majority of losses are from Kerosene price & hedgin
42 BlueSky1976: Small, but quite important, addition the article mentions: the operating loss of 150 million zl (approx. 50 mln USD). Regardless of the fuel hedge fia
43 Boeing4ever: Try as you might, I sincerely doubt there's some massive struggle between LH and LO as you and Delta777jet here try to paint. Particularly when you c
44 MarcinGDN: BlueSky1976 - you don't notice that some of your interesting points are getting blurred when you can't hold your negative feelings.
45 BlueSky1976: Simply speaking, I am fed up with the way the airline is managed since 2005. Probably I just get too emotional about it. I do not consider it an insul
46 Boeing4ever: Here at least, we agree. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
47 MarcinGDN: If you differentiate between a bad airline and a badly run airline you should mock the CEOs of LO since 2005.. and than we all agree because they wer
48 Delta777jet: I think with the always changing CEO's of LOT we can all agree and for sure we did not saw the last in the chairman seat. The only real leader LOT had
49 SyeaphanR: And now this...Who is going to be keen to buy the airline, in its current state? Hmmm...I fear the Polish government is a touch optimistic! http://www
50 SyeaphanR: And a slightly off-topic garnish, to demonstrate the state of flux in Polish aviation... http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/b...da_terminal__warsaw__t
51 Boeing4ever: I never said that was the only person to blame. But he certainly screwed up in a way that raises eyebrows and suspiscion. I'm sorry, but bad business
52 Skyman: LH has increased their flights to Poland and are in a very good position to take over large shares of the market. They are just waiting for LOT to go
53 Babybus: Unless national governments can step in with subsidies to protect national airlines it really is the end of the road for them. Does a country really n
54 BuyantUkhaa: Not saying the LOT has been managed well, but hedging fuel at $120 when it was going to $150 and was expected to possibly hit $200 doesn't seem so ba
55 Flylot: "Polish Airport State Enterprise, the owner of Okęcie, is organizing a 70s and 80s style happening." What the heck does that mean? And isn't termina
56 Boeing4ever: I'll grant that. But I can't think of any other airline that actually did so. At least waiting until winter when summer fuel highs go down before sig
57 Delta777jet: Now it has been decided to liquidate Centralwings, my bet, this will be very very expensive ! Why not just send Centralwings into bankruptcy ? I would
58 Flylot: Source: http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/b...alwings_airlines_to_liquidate.html Its a little confusing, but Liquidation is more appealing because LO
59 Delta777jet: FlyLot: I'm not aware that Centralwings has any assets at all, they probably not own any aircraft, the chairs and tables in the office can not be wort
60 Flylot: http://lotnictwo.net/pic/0903/0903310001.jpg What's happening in this picture? Is the lease on this 767 over? Storing the aircraft because of the slow
61 Babybus: So what's the latest on the LOT saga? Maybe LH could start a Lufthansa Polski airline. I'd also like to know why BA isn't in the running to take-over
62 EHRD: Lease is over. LOT returned both B767-200's and they are now flying in Mexico for Mexicana. SP-LOA as XA-MXN and SP-LOB as XA-MXO.
63 MarcinGDN: This one is SP-LPF.. If the lease is over why did they store it in WAW and why is it still in LO c/s?
64 EHRD: Oeps, sorry my mistake. I thought it was a B767-200, didn't look at the reg.... Read on a Polish aviation forum that this aircraft is out of serv
65 WROORD: LOT just announced that it will take delivery of additional E175 in June/July 2009. The new planes are to replace existing E145. The new interim CEO (
66 Luvflng: What you are saying makes no sense. You would need to throw in jail people at United, American, and other airlines that did hedge in the high fuel pr
67 Boeing4ever: Name another airline that hedged at these prices. There were analysts who predicted the price crash in oil. UA, AA, etc, I do not recall having hedge
68 Flylot: http://wyborcza.pl/1,91446,6477136,M...ic_PLL_LOT_plynnosc_finansowa.html http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodar...77859,Czy_LOT_znalazl_pilota_.html LO
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It's terrible shame - this was great airline, but you can't survive if you are still using 80's tactics and 80's (at best!) customer service quality...
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