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Pilot Review Of LH Hamburg Wingtip Strike  
User currently offlineAmmunition From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 1064 posts, RR: 4
Posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

http://www.airlineempires.net/blog/2...pilot-a-hero-or-lacking-technique/
makes for a good read as an independent pilot reviews the whole incident, comparing it to another crosswind landing.


Saint Augustine- 'The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only 1 page'
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8638 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6742 times:



Quoting Ammunition (Thread starter):
makes for a good read as an independent pilot reviews the whole incident, comparing it to another crosswind landing.

Hate to bust your bubble, but that is not a very good explanation at all.

The wing sweep changes a lot when it comes to crosswind landings, think of the relative velocities each wing will "see" as rudder is used to align the aircraft with the runway. Swept wing cross wind landings have more considerations than a simple C172.

The only reliable measure of the actual wind the aircraft encountered would come form the DFDR, not eyewitness accounts, unless you have access to that, one cannot make any valid assessment.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8895 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6716 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Crosswind is not always crosswind. If you have a steady 30 knots crosswind then the landing is a lot easier than a gusty crosswind which changes from 10 knots to 30 knots in seconds. That is a huge difference as well.

It is always interesting how many people judge on what the pilots did and not even been actually in the cockpit during that incident.

wilco737



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6657 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):
It is always interesting how many people judge on what the pilots did and not even been actually in the cockpit during that incident.

My words exactly! Decisions are made in nuances and split-seconds during that approach in HAM. No way anyone than the F/O and her captain can judge about that landing!

Mario
LH526



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Wilco737, we always disagreed on this incident and though I must say that the captain showed some exceptional flying skills in the recovery maneuver, you must agree that the unexperienced F/O was caught on her feet with too little aileron input and a bouncy touchdown that made them vulnerable to the strong x-winds.

As I used to say, don't blame the person, blame the system (EASA)  Wink
Not her fault if she can get the opportunity to jump on an A320 after less than 200 hours of flight training. Anyone would take it.
Europe (EASA) can really get worse than some banana countries when it gets to aviation. Perhaps they hire too many bottom-of-food-chain, career-focused bureaucrats who don't even know why airplanes can fly.


Add dihedral to wing sweep and go crazy  Wink


User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6576 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 4):
Not her fault if she can get the opportunity to jump on an A320 after less than 200 hours of flight training.

Right  Yeah sure

There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots out there who did exactly this, and it doesn't make European aviation any less safe. In this incident, there just happened to sit one of those "unexpirienced" junior F/Os in the right seat. Do we know wether it had ended any better than it did, had a more experienced F/O been flying the approach? We don't. And in the end, the choice of runway was one of the main contributing factors. Who has the final authority when it comes down to decisions? Thats right, the captain.


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6513 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 4):
Not her fault if she can get the opportunity to jump on an A320 after less than 200 hours of flight training. Anyone would take it.

Better not come anywhere near Hong Kong then, NCB.

From Adelaide (training) it's straight up to HKG and into a CX 340/777/747. S/O.

Same for Flight Training Europe (very high standard) straight onto a FlyBE a/c. F/O.

Same for Dragonair cadets BTW. A330 F/O.

Same for the MPL graduates, and the whole MPL concept.


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5593 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 6):
Same for the MPL graduates, and the whole MPL concept.

Exactly, and a fresh MPL Pilot at the controls on a day like this is a death sentence for the 150 people in the back of that jet.


727forever



727forever
User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4913 times:



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 5):
There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots out there who did exactly this, and it doesn't make European aviation any less safe.

No?
Am I imagining things then when I see 200 hour pilots on a daily basis?

I prefer the American system:
-500/1000 hours to regional F/O
-thousands of hours to mainline F/O
-dozen thousand to mainline widebody F/O


User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3536 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 8):

Am I imagining things then when I see 200 hour pilots on a daily basis?

quite probably so.

Quoting NCB (Reply 8):
I prefer the American system:

Apples and Oranges.


User currently offlineBA32X From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

I do enjoy these little 'debates'. Firstly with regard to the quality (or lack of) from LH pilots. How many of you have actually flown the Airbus and know how it operates with regard to the flight control laws? Ok, i'm not having a dig at anyone in particular, but having flown the aircraft for many years, it clearly is a matter of an unexpected gust that has caught the aircraft at exactly the wrong time, during the rudder input, which has caused 'more than expected' wing lift. I would almost put money on the side stick input being at full right deflection as soon as the wing lift was noticed, but the airbus logic would not have instantly given full right aileron deflection. Thats just the way it was designed. And in day to day use its a brilliant machine...Just a bit more exciting when its gusty.

With regard to quality of young/inexperienced pilots...I come into the that bracket. I was a Flight Training Europe graduate at 19, base training in a 319 at 20 and unfroze my ATPL at 21. I agree i'm young, still am, and reading above i'm am somehow more dangerous than an American pilot because they have 3000hrs on a warrior or a dash? Sorry guys, I disagree. You want to say that, come and fly with me before you put me into that category. I've seen 20000hr skippers do 1.6g landings and cock up cross wind landings. I also know that at my airline, First Officers can be trainers. I'm sure it would really upset a few people to know that a 25 year old with sub 3 years on type can be training and examining 55 year old Captains. The training is superb.

MPL Pilots. Well that's another story. One I can't say I agree with.

ATB.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3345 times:



Quoting NCB (Reply 4):
you must agree that the unexperienced F/O was caught on her feet with too little aileron input and a bouncy touchdown that made them vulnerable to the strong x-winds.



Quoting NCB (Reply 4):
Not her fault if she can get the opportunity to jump on an A320 after less than 200 hours of flight training.

If that's true then the Capt. is to blame for even allowing her the app & ldg.We have certain situations that mandate the Capt. make the ldg with the "catch all" of "any adverse condition that dictates that he make the ldg." After all he did sign for the jet and as I've always said if someone's going to screw it up it better be me! This would certainly qualify. I won't get into that experience debate but one must agree that when you "come on board" with xxxx hours of previous jet (aka swept wing) experience there are characteristics and techniques that are already ingrained into your brain that you don't have to learn and are "second nature". We saw this in the late 70s when many low time pilots were hired without much jet time.


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