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Another NW Labor Group Votes To Decertify Union  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

"In addition, last week pre-merger Northwest training
representatives, production planners, line maintenance
planners, technical writers, reliability analysts and
technical analysts, represented by the Aircraft Technical
Support Association (ATSA), voted to approve a transition
plan. The transition plan provides that they will now file a
notice with the National Mediation Board (NMB) requesting
that the NMB terminate their certification.

more here
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Delta-...hes-Seniority-prnews-14653475.html

155 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

inch by inch folks are fighting for their freedom. Aren't you the best spokesperson for your own rights and dreams within a company to create your own destiny? Food for thought.

User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3975 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8479 times:

Skyteam - only if you live in a bubble, removed from reality and aren't working within the airline industry. You're drunk on kool aid if you think airline workers are the "best spokesperson for your own rights and dreams..."

User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8445 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The union probably did NOT have the required 30% of members between Delta and Northwest to sign cards for a representative election.  old 

User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8402 times:

I would guess that the ATSA determined that the amount of DL employees in the classifications that they represent at NWA was large enough that a win in the representation election was very unlikely. On the other side of the coin, the meteorologists, the only NWA labor group which outweighed the DL group in membership is, I believe, retaining their representation with NAMA.

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 1):
Aren't you the best spokesperson for your own rights and dreams within a company to create your own destiny?

Maybe so, but how many companies deal with their employees on a person to person basis? If that's the case at DL, and the IAM is decertified, I'm going to stroll into my manager's office and try to negotiate myself a raise and some new work rules.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8374 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
Maybe so, but how many companies deal with their employees on a person to person basis?

Um, the answer to that would be...most of them...?


User currently offlineNwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8341 times:



Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 1):
inch by inch folks are fighting for their freedom. Aren't you the best spokesperson for your own rights and dreams within a company to create your own destiny? Food for thought.

Ick.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 2):
Skyteam - only if you live in a bubble, removed from reality and aren't working within the airline industry. You're drunk on kool aid if you think airline workers are the "best spokesperson for your own rights and dreams..."

YES.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 3):
The union probably did NOT have the required 30% of members between Delta and Northwest to sign cards for a representative election.

Entirely possible... There's only ~150 ATSA members at NW.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
the only NWA labor group which outweighed the DL group in membership is, I believe, retaining their representation with NAMA.

I think that's correct. Didn't the dispatchers decide to go with PAFCA (DL's union)?

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
I'm going to stroll into my manager's office and try to negotiate myself a raise and some new work rules.

The line starts behind me, amigo.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8305 times:



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 5):
Um, the answer to that would be...most of them...?

Well, let's look at the airline industry. Do most of them allow their rank and file to negotiate their own wages and work rules individually? How far am I going to get when I go into my manager's office alone? They'd probably laugh. But when it comes to be contract time, and the union sits down to negotiate, I bet the company is going to work with them.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3975 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

Everyone fails to see what other things unions do to benefit the worker. I can only speak for ALPA, but ALPA is way more than a vehicle to negotiate my pay. ALPA retains aeromedical doctors to assist pilots with medical needs. ALPA also has a large contingent of lawyers to help the pilot uphold their contract. ALPA also has great loss of license insurance and other great programs to assist the pilot in need. ALPA is also on the fore front in security and safety regulation and works closely with the government to improve in both of those areas. I by no means bleed ALPA, but I most certainly and thankful for the benefits that ALPA provides me, as an airline pilot. No single person can achieve what ALPA can do for the rank and file pilot.

User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 650 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

My dad was part of this union with NW. They were basically told by there counterparts at DL that if they persued the union and lost, they could be let go by DL because they would be considered Rebel rousers. My dad is looking at at a 20% pay cut by switching over to DL's work rules and pay scales. Just what I have heard and seen.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4118 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

What have the unions other than the ALPA been able to do for airlines over the last ten years? While I think the country needs to have the collective bargaining option that unions offer (would anyone here like to work for Wal-Qaeda?), the unions have been much too pig-headed in the airline industry for the support services workers by demanding "fantaseyland" work rules and benefits. The ALPA understands airlines are a business where as the mechanics union for example looks at them as if they should be a government owned socialist enterprise.


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineFFLyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7944 times:



Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 9):
My dad was part of this union with NW. They were basically told by there counterparts at DL that if they persued the union and lost, they could be let go by DL because they would be considered Rebel rousers. My dad is looking at at a 20% pay cut by switching over to DL's work rules and pay scales. Just what I have heard and seen.

Where did you come up with this misinformation??? Delta cannot and will not fire someone because they lose a union representation vote. That is absurd. Furthermore, your Dad will be raised UP to Delta's pay scale and benefit programs. Consider your Dad just got a raise!!


User currently offlineL4DashTrash From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7901 times:

SLCUT2777 Don't forget flight attendant unions. I can only speak for AFA, however, when you look at it F/a's are some of the lowest paid people at some airlines. The Unions are not demanding fantasyland work rules and benefits, They are demanding a Living wage. You asked If any one here would like to work at wal-mart, or as you put it wal-qaeda, well i might not like to work there but, my partner works there and makes more than I do, and some of the pilots i know. The way a union works, you shoot for the stars and hope for the moon, its called negotiations the company does the same.

In the 9 years I have been flying I have been furloughed near the top of the seniority list because my base closed and there were no other bases available, Thats why I voted union. After having my vacation pay just thrown away at the whim of a company, that's why I voted union, After taking pay cuts while a company is making money, and managers are getting raises, I decided to Vote union. When my friend can buy a ticket on my airline round trip for 98 dollars, and It would cost 115 dollars for them to travel on my buddy pass, I say its time for a union.

Additionally, With AFA, they also work with congress, to act on issues that pertain to us.
Do you consider trying to bring our environment up to osha standards fantasy land benefits?

AFA also has an Employee assistance program that helps in many areas free of charge unlimited, where as some charge after 3 uses and have no clue what to do with airline crew members.

I am not trying to start anything, however, there are more than just alpa that are doing things over the last 10 years. They may not be doing it for airlines, but it is not the unions job to do things for the airline, it's their job to protect the people they represent. It is managements job to Run a safe and profitable airline, and if they can't find a way to do it, without having their crews in line for state aid and food stamps (yes I qualify) than let some one else do it who can.

(my appologies for any spelling errors, the spell check button does not appear to do anything)


User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4211 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7881 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 2):
Skyteam - only if you live in a bubble, removed from reality and aren't working within the airline industry. You're drunk on kool aid if you think airline workers are the "best spokesperson for your own rights and dreams..."

Agree totally. Skyteamtristar, no offence, but you either work for a great airline, or are management of one, or have a rose tinted idea of how it works in this business. The Airlines are ruthless. Anyone who has a union should keep it. It's only since I started working in this business that I have felt like that. I previously thought that Unions were nothing but trouble makers.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineLegacytravel From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1067 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7824 times:

Unions are useless plane and simple. i was in one for 15 years. They make work rules so strict and protect the employees that need to go. What really pisses me off aobut the unions are when times are good they are the first one toask for more money, but when times are bad they will not negotiate to give back to help the employer. That is a reference to GM.

Mark in MKE



I love the smell of Jet fuel in the Morning
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1671 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7692 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 7):
But when it comes to be contract time, and the union sits down to negotiate, I bet the company is going to work with them.

If a guy points a gun to your head are you "working with him" when you pull out your wallet?

Unions empowered by the government to shut down an industry by denying the employer's right to hire replacements or physically blocking his use of his property are an aberration.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7662 times:

The facts of life are that without unions, workers would be regularly screwed. The mere threat of unions keeps many managements honest, and causes them to offer fair treatment to workers without unions. However, the scales have been tilted heavily in the unions' favor over the last few decades, and many of them have gotten way too greedy and have priced themselves out of the market. Many are more interested in power for their bosses than in the rights and well-being of the workers, but this is by no means true of all of them. So workers have a choice when making the decision on whether or not to join a union; who do you want to be screwed by? If it is a good company that seems to have reasonable management I would suggest trusting them. If it is a good union (as some of them are) and a company managed by people who don't care about the workers, then it may be good to get the union in. The problem comes when you get the union in and discover that you've gone from the frying pan into the fire; it is in practical terms very, very difficult do get rid of a union, but the workers can bring a union in at any time. I would certainly bear that in mind when voting on a union issue. To think that venality and greed are exclusively traits of management is naive in the extreme. To see what happens when unions get too powerful, just take a walk in Detroit.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7244 times:



Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 15):
Unions empowered by the government to shut down an industry by denying the employer's right to hire replacements or physically blocking his use of his property are an aberration.

And when was the last time that a US airline union shut down an industry? Not just one airline, but as you said, an industry. Also, there's not really anything that denies them from hiring replacements. When AMFA went on strike at NWA, the company already had replacement workers lined up and trained.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7224 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
Maybe so, but how many companies deal with their employees on a person to person basis? If that's the case at DL, and the IAM is decertified, I'm going to stroll into my manager's office and try to negotiate myself a raise and some new work rules.

A direct and personal relationship with management is not always the best. KingAir is correct, how far can your manager go with you alone in thier office?

Quoting FFLyerWorld (Reply 11):

Where did you come up with this misinformation??? Delta cannot and will not fire someone because they lose a union representation vote. That is absurd. Furthermore, your Dad will be raised UP to Delta's pay scale and benefit programs. Consider your Dad just got a raise!!

When you are an at will employee, you can be fired for whatever reason.

Unions do not solve everything, but the help.

Also, look for a regional airline serving the premier global airline filing for AFA election some time soon...



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2255 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7153 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 7):
But when it comes to be contract time, and the union sits down to negotiate, I bet the company is going to work with them.

Like APA and American?



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5728 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
Maybe so, but how many companies deal with their employees on a person to person basis? If that's the case at DL, and the IAM is decertified, I'm going to stroll into my manager's office and try to negotiate myself a raise and some new work rules.

Funny thing is this is how it does work for the non-union rest of the world!

If I feel that I am underpaid then yes, I do go into my bosses office, shut the door, and ask for a raise. We discuss what the options are, why I feel this way, what I offer and my boss expresses his point of view. If I am valuable then I can get a raise (or a change in the "rules"), if the company can't/won't give me one then I have to think about what I want to do. And by not being in a union I can go to other companies seeking the wage I desire and am not forced to start at the bottom of the scale. The problem for many union members is they are stuck and have realistic ability to seek employment elsewhere unless they are willing to start again at the bottom of the seniority scale (never understood why people like this "seniority trap", it robs them of the power to change things and gives all the power to the union).

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 9):
Rebel rousers

Just a nit-pick: The term is "rabble rousers".

Tugg

[Edited 2009-03-17 09:58:51]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10585 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7100 times:



Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 9):
My dad was part of this union with NW. They were basically told by there counterparts at DL that if they persued the union and lost, they could be let go by DL because they would be considered Rebel rousers. My dad is looking at at a 20% pay cut by switching over to DL's work rules and pay scales. Just what I have heard and seen.

I call BS on this one. In all my years at DL, I NEVER saw any of this happening and I know several people at SLC that were pushing for the TWU and were not let go because of their activities.

Rumors and speculation should not replace facts, but that seems to be what this particular thread is about.........EVIL Delta strikes again.  Yeah sure



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineGoaliemn From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 463 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7014 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 4):
If that's the case at DL, and the IAM is decertified, I'm going to stroll into my manager's office and try to negotiate myself a raise and some new work rules.

As someone whos never been union represented, thats how you do it. You justify to your boss why you deserve a raise and, if you do, most bosses will help you get it. I get a review once a year. Thats when the boss decides who gets what, and I can also point out things that I've done to help him see that I deserve it.

Work rule changes may be harder to do, but maybe some flexibility on schedules.


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1627 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6953 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 20):
Like APA and American?

Well, the APA is a little over the top with their demands at times. Besides, there are good unions and bad unions, same as there are companies that have good labor relations and bad labor relations.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 21):
If I feel that I am underpaid then yes, I do go into my bosses office, shut the door, and ask for a raise.



Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 23):
You justify to your boss why
you deserve a raise and, if you do, most bosses will help you get it.

Ok, but tell me this. What do you do? Do you work on the ramp for a major US airline where there are thousands of other people doing your job? Does that company have different, individually negotiable rates of pay for many of those thousands of employees? If you are working in the office at a major company, with a desk and a college degree, having a dialogue with your manager might work.

[Edited 2009-03-17 10:32:35]


Hey Swifty
User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1879 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6949 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 8):
I by no means bleed ALPA, but I most certainly and thankful for the benefits that ALPA provides me, as an airline pilot

I'm thankful for the AFA everyday.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 19):
Also, look for a regional airline serving the premier global airline filing for AFA election some time soon...

Are you refferring to Skywest? I was on an OO flight a while back and the FAs were pretty senior for the company, 8 and 9 years respectively. They both really favored representation and mainly not so much from the past, but because they are fearful for the future and want clear language should a situation arise within that airline specifically. I've also wondered if the ASA division has influenced them any- seeing as ASA has a pretty nice AFA contract and is part of the skywest inc. family.


25 Hatbutton : Agreed. This has happened a couple times for me. I felt like I was working harder than my co-workers and putting in more time. Then I bring it to my
26 Tugger : Yes, I do work at a company where there are thousands that do a job similar to mine and who could, if needed, replace me. There are many different ra
27 DELTA7478 : I will also guess that the flight attendants and customer Sercice ( ACS ) will leave the Union. I wonder wen can I cast my VOTE.. It will be no union.
28 KingAir200 : That's fine. But it sounds to me that you have a skill or a particular career that you have chosen. Plenty of people make the ramp a career, but I wo
29 Zvezda : That's one less group of workers that the mafia gets to bleed dry through union dues.
30 NWAESC : I'm looking at a pay cut if we switch over to DL's pay/work rules as well. It's not 20%, but it's still pretty significant. Really? Are you serious?
31 SEPilot : I am not sure what you are referring to; I was actually talking primarily of the UAW and the auto industry, not DTW. Let me tell you of one experienc
32 Post contains images SNCntry32 : Nope.
33 Bobnwa : Wouldn't it be more likely that the union would prevent you from going to your manager and trying to negotiate a raise or any other matter unless the
34 DELTA7478 : I did't know that the MOBB ownes the unions ??
35 Isitsafenow : That's pretty much what will happen. You see, when you sign the union card to join the union you gotta read it. Most all cards say something like...
36 USPIT10L : Gee, I remember hearing that if DGS employees tried to get a union on property, DL would cancel the contract and lay off all the DGS employees. Sound
37 Nwaesc : You didn't take that seriously, did you? Do I really need to start using emoticons?
38 Hatbutton : Yeah but where did you hear this from? DGS is a separate company from Delta. They could cancel the contract but there would be no "laying off" in tha
39 Mpdpilot : Really, couldn't have said it better myself. And thats how I think it should be. Once again very well put. And this is why I think a number of people
40 Bennett123 : I understand that WN are unionised, how do they make it work.
41 KingAir200 : Well we shall see. If/when the IAM is decertified, I'll be sure to update you all how it goes when I ask DL for a raise...
42 SLCUT2777 : Very Simple. They realize that their people wish to excel at what they do, and they don't look at the rank-n-file as the UAW does (at GM, Ford or Chr
43 Bobnwa : Maybe you were saying it tongue in cheek, but the example I used in reservations really happened. The end result was no one got the free week vacatio
44 Flyibaby : No...you can't. If it does happen, and you decide to fight it, the company has to show just cause for why you were terminated, and they have to follo
45 Hatbutton : Couldn't have said it better myself. A ramp job, and any entry level job for that matter, I don't think should be confused with a career. A career im
46 SNCntry32 : At-will employment is a doctrine of American law that defines an employment relationship in which either party can break the relationship with no lia
47 Mayor : But WILL he be fired? Don't be so paranoid because of what you've heard about DL. I'd LOVE to know where those rumors come from. Also, what happened
48 Hatbutton : Union or not, they still have to document these reasons and show that you both had a discussion as to the behavior that led to their decision. Usuall
49 KingAir200 : I see what you are saying, and this plays into my whole theory of not getting a raise when you ask for one. What are you to the company? Probably not
50 Post contains links NWAESC : Home depot =/= aviation. Home depot isn't covered under CBA's, either. The rarest of finds: Mutual respect between management & the workforce. That's
51 MPDPilot : Why is an entry level job any different in Aviation? What is so special about working for an airline that makes you deserve anything more than any ot
52 NWAdeicer : Correct me if i'm wrong GoalieMN but don't you work for NWA in building A ?
53 SkyguyB727 : SNCntry32 makes an excellent point. To expand on that point, when you are an "at will" employee, you can be fired for no reason at all. Too many peop
54 T5towbar : Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 47): I'm sorry, this is an entire peeve of mine. A ramp agent job, is an entry level job. Entry level jobs do not come with hi
55 SkyguyB727 : That is flat out untrue, at least in my state. My state is an "employment at will" state. An employer is not legally bound in my state to give any re
56 SkyguyB727 : Flyibaby, let's expand a bit on your ramp agent/grocery store cashier analogy. What's the worst thing that can happen if the grocery store cashier do
57 Kevindca : Welcome to the Railway Labor Act, passed in 1926 and amended in 1936 to include the airlines. That "number of people" originated 4 generations ago in
58 Mayor : Well, yeah...it "could".......the sun "could" also explode tomorrow.....not likely, but it "could".
59 Goaliemn : I'm a computer guy. My job has a specified "pay band" that goes from $Xk to $Xk. I can't go in and say "I should get $500,000 a year!" but if I know
60 Nwaesc : Um no... All ACS payscales are done in "steps," based on years of service.
61 Mayor : I have to agree.....it was an insult. I spent most of my career as a ramp rat, albeit in different departments but the same pay scale. When I started
62 USPIT10L : I started in cabin service myself back in 2003. But I don't consider it an insult, because these days entry level pay is precisely that. I'm not goin
63 AT : Here's another way to look at it. The Management has a de facto "representation" of their own. The difference is THEY themselves represent their inter
64 Post contains links Flyibaby : Thanks. Read the entire wikipedia article on it. Note that there are many exceptions to the rule, in fact more so than not. At Will Employment Point
65 WorldTraveler : And those positions are paid differently... some of them and others cross over into merit/management/ admistrative roles which might exclude them fro
66 KingAir200 : Would you stand in front of the employees you oversee and tell them that? And for the record, I'm using my ramp job to pay for that advanced training
67 Hatbutton : This is totally wrong and the stigma that needs to get out of people's heads. Like WorldTraveler said, everyone has to report to someone or some set
68 USPIT10L : You're a good manager. Far too often in business, people get ahead by how much a$$ they kiss, not how hard they work. Enjoy your career in the airlin
69 T5towbar : Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 67): Frankly if I have insulted thousands of people then great - its high time that everyone in the industry heard this. Would
70 USPIT10L : It doesn't help matters when the people that asked for the first givebacks leave and are replaced with other people asking for the same thing. Look a
71 Mayor : Even when I was making $20 an hour in wages, we got no special pay for being a team leader or load planner, particularly those of us at smaller stati
72 Nwaesc : Ah yes, the shining beacon of accuracy, Wikipedia. Are you honestly saying that no at will employees have ever been fired with out cause? Really? I s
73 Mayor : I'm thinking that Flyibaby has spent little or no time on the ramp OR if he has, has conveniently forgotten where he came from.
74 Rwy04LGA : Read: Love! HEYYYY!
75 KingAir200 : PACE guy, eh? Funny how lowly rampers at NWA do pretty much all the stuff that Flyibaby listed as managerial duties at his company.[Edited 2009-03-18
76 Flyibaby : I am glad that you have had the opportunity to do everything on my "promotion list." Good for you. If you would really like to trade job descriptions
77 KingAir200 : Did they take you seriously? If my station manager came in and told us that, I think people would probably laugh. I don't know what age group you are
78 Breaker1011 : A paycut. For some reason, it's striking that you say that NWAESC. Considering the nature of some of your former posts regarding management, unions,
79 Post contains images NWAESC :    Dangerous as in a threat to the status quo, or upsetting management's little fiefdoms... Not dangerous as in "run for your lives." Yeah, imagine
80 WorldTraveler : You are confusing government with business. Business actually has to produce something.
81 Nwarooster : You, obviously, never worked at Northwest. I have seen a lot of worthless a$$ kissers become managers. As a mechanic they could not fix a thing. Also
82 SkyguyB727 : I'd believe a labor attorney who knows my state's labor laws over a Wikipedia article any day.
83 474218 : My question is; will DL make the NW employees with facial hair (beards) shave them off before before they become DL employees?
84 T5towbar : AMEN to that! A lot of us have plenty of responsibilities, and do a damn good job at it. Don't knock someone who wants to make a career on the ramp.
85 L4DashTrash : You cant really blame the unions, Blame the management or mis management, Look at SWA many of their work groups are union, and look how many years of
86 Goaliemn : But does each step have a range, or is each step "A ramper will be paid $X/hr for the first year of service" If each step has a range, then you can n
87 Nwaesc : It's the latter.
88 CokePopper : I wouldn't see why, Delta allows facial hair.
89 Mayor : Only the women. Doesn't it make you wonder where they get these ideas? It may seem inconsequential, but if this is an example of the kind of rumors t
90 Nwaesc : I'm pretty sure it was said in jest...
91 Mayor : So, where's the jest? Sounds like a legitamate question, albeit based on faulty info, to me.
92 KingAir200 : I'd never heard that rumor anyway. Is 474218 even an NWA employee?
93 NWAESC : Because it's so outlandish (even by my standards), that it can't possibly be serious.
94 Rwy04LGA : There are restrictions to facial hair. A small beard is allowed only if it touches the moustache. Also, visible tattoos are prohibited.
95 Ikramerica : Sure, if you were a slacker. If you deserved to be paid more because they didn't want to lose you, they would negotiate a raise. If they think you ar
96 KingAir200 : As we've determined earlier, I don't think even nonunion airlines do this. DL has a stepped payscale and you earn raises based on your years of servi
97 Nwaesc : Soooo no "Abe Lincoln" style beards, then? What if I'm Amish? Hmmm.... That might be an issue for several people I know.
98 474218 : I don't make things up like a lot of people that post on a.net! Lockheed assigned a L-1011 tech rep that wore a full beard to Delta in the 1980's. De
99 Mayor : I call BS on this one. Besides, even if they did, that was the grooming standard back then. Facial hair, specifically beards and goatees (which I gre
100 474218 : If what you say is true (and I have no way to prove its not) then Delta's standards have changed. There was a court case Arthur Lee Smith vs Delta Ai
101 Mayor : You're living even further in the past than me. Delta's grooming standards were changed in 1999 or after to include beards and goatees. I grew one fo
102 MPDPilot : Very well put, and one of the problems I have with working for airlines. And there are guys that have worked at Sears for decades too, yet they are s
103 T5towbar : Maybe to some people it is. But it is still a valued and important job that people like to do. We get pay increases by time of service. Then you "top
104 WorldTraveler : As long as management can improve the efficiency of their operation.... and it's not just airlines. While labor might not like it, the US is a highly
105 Nwarooster : If you are a practicing Amish member, I do NOT think you would be employed by an airline. Amish have beliefs that may not fit into an airline atmosph
106 Rwy04LGA : Why would my honesty come into question? What if I was just misinformed? I wrote what I know to be the policy in place today, not 4 years ago. Of cou
107 T5towbar : ........but who reaps the rewards and benefits? Management, of course!
108 MPDPilot : I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I think that just about any entry level job is usually more important than most management positions. They are th
109 Post contains links FFlyerWorld : Was this a surprise? http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/090320/cl86539.html?.v=1
110 WorldTraveler : No, customers benefit. And while alot of us don't like the idea of working harder and harder just to offer lower and lower prices to consumers, it is
111 Post contains images NWAESC : Not if I'm on Rumspringa...   (obviously, my previous post was tongue in cheek). I doubt it. These smaller unions have never been real influential o
112 Mayor : Don't get all excited. BTW, I quoted what I new from 4 years ago, which I'm certain hasn't regressed AND the CURRENT standards..................... S
113 WorldTraveler : In terms of the total impact to NWA, no. But they are unions nonetheless and NW has had to deal with them every step of the way. They were no less im
114 Nwaesc : Are you saying that unions at other carriers had zero influence on the wages/benefits at DL? They have done "at least as good as their counterparts"
115 Milesrich : This may be true, but unions can be de-certified by a majority signing cards to do so. It does NOT require a secret ballot election. What happened to
116 WorldTraveler : Of course DL employees have benefitted from the unionized efforts at other airlines. But in many cases, DL also offered higher salaries and benefits
117 Surprise : As the DL/NW merger moves along I have noticed something that stands out to me. Whenever you are in a meeting or a class or just a large get together
118 Nwaesc : Of course they did. This is the easiest way to stop a union drive before it starts. I don't think so... I think it's even more likely that should a u
119 T5towbar : But you forget who is running things now......... This ain't the old DL that you know and love; who did right by their employees who felt that did no
120 Rwy04LGA : Excited, no. Amused, yes. It's rather bad form to publicly bring into question the honesty of someone you don't know personally, no? FYI, check my RU
121 Mayor : Well, I wasn't questioning your honesty and I said so. It just sort of surprised me that the standards would have changed. Maybe what I should have s
122 KingAir200 : Yeah, actually it was. I thought they had already held the vote, but evidently not. My bad. That's what happens when you dangle a carrot. Anyway, it'
123 Mayor : It almost sounds like this is turning around, somewhat.
124 Nwarooster : This AIN'T the OLD Delta. It is the NEW Delta and it is a whole new ball game with new and not necessarily good and fair rules.
125 Mayor : And what would YOU know about the OLD or NEW Delta?
126 Nwaesc : Not necessarily. Yep. A lot of people forget that "not all that glitters is gold." Indeed. We'll see. I think you're wrong, but hope you're right. Wi
127 KingAir200 : I certainly hope so. I hope they keep their word and we don't end up any worse off than we were before. If DL wants to show to NWA employees that the
128 Nwarooster : I personally know Richard. He is a lawyer and he is running the show. Richard worked at the Lorenzo era Continental and after and also Northwest gett
129 WorldTraveler : Actually, the Board continues to run DL - and it is composed of some longtime DL people as well as newer people to DL and people from the NW board. T
130 KingAir200 : Tell me how you can, sans doute, say that it's going to be all lollipops and roses for us NWA rampers? FedEx me your crystal ball, 'cause man, I wann
131 WorldTraveler : I didn't promise ANYONE a rose garden. But you wouldn't get one if you had a union either. The question is not whether you will get everything you wa
132 Breaker1011 : At 16 - 20 years old, surely you can't be hedging the rest of your life's career satisfaction on your existing circumstance as a ground agent and wha
133 KingAir200 : What you did say was that DL was going to do what they say they are going to do. They *said* they are keeping mainline stations where there was pre-m
134 Breaker1011 : That's cool, and gracious that you're not focused only on self. I wish more people thought that way. Truly, and this is just my opinion, I think you'
135 WorldTraveler : I didn't hear them say that so I can't vouch for it but I am sure that is what they are trying to do whether it is a guarantee or not. DL is clearly
136 Nwaesc : Instead of working to change it, they exacerbated (sp?) that divide. I don't non-rev. No, the overwhelming evidence (based on DL's recent past) is th
137 FFlyerWorld : When all is said and done - just be thankful to have a job!!!! Union or not - there is much suffering out there right now - and the new Delta has thus
138 KingAir200 : It's been all over Deltanet, which you can view, assuming you actually work for DL. A perfect example of this is the October 15th Weekly Update from
139 Mayor : Good grief, do you expect them to manufacture a job title just so you can stay in it? Why couldn't you become a performance leader at your station? Y
140 Nwaesc : Of course not. WT made the contention that I'd be "better off" I showed why that might not be the case. BTW, there's about 700 others in the same boa
141 Rwy04LGA : Sounds like it to me, as well. A Delta P/L might lose his job to YOU! I've heard that one, perhaps two, might be downgraded to make room for a NW sup
142 WorldTraveler : but WHY? You have worked for a large int'l airline for years and you now work for the world's largest airline. Even if you don't fly, travel benefits
143 Nwarooster : I did not non-rev before I retired and I still do not. Non-rev passes are barely worth the paper they are printed on. The airlines keep reducing the
144 Nwaesc : No DL'ers here... Why? Because it's not worth the hassle to me.... You have to remember I started in a station that (at the time) had 4 A320 flights
145 WorldTraveler : I don't know if your spouse works or if you have the ability to travel on Tue/Wed but I always found that airline employees were able to get on durin
146 T5towbar : I didn't or don't work for NW, but I'm very familiar with that management........ I was there during the bad old days (after the PeoplExpress takeove
147 Rwy04LGA : Not that much more over $0? Yes, it is!
148 NWAESC : She does. She has one of those "jobs in the real world" I keep hearing so much about. I don't. Which is too bad. It'd be nice if DL offered to pay pe
149 Mayor : Can someone honestly tell me the difference between a NW "crew chief" and a DL "performance leader", if there is any?
150 Nwaesc : I know you weren't asking me, but here's my .02... A crew chief is a ramper, ALA, and PL all rolled into one (this is where my comments about efficie
151 Mayor : Well, I don't know that they've actually ADDED another level of management or just consolidated the lead and supervisor positions into one and called
152 Surprise : A DL Performance Leader is actually the equivalent of a NW Manager. Regardless of which way the union vote goes the PL's will not be part of the unio
153 Mayor : Ok........are there still Leads and Supervisors in the mix at Delta or have they been eliminated, too?
154 Surprise : DL has Leads above wing only. Currently there are none below wing. PL's used to be called Team Leaders and before that they were called Supervisors.
155 Mayor : The only way they could do that would be to have a pass user charged each time they used a pass, because there would be no other way to do it. Some p
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