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GPS In Cockpits?  
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 972 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2027 times:

I've been reading this forum for over five years but only a few days ago decided to join and this is my first post, so please be gentle....

Some time ago when the FAA changed the allowable levels of aircrafts from each other there was a lot of talk about putting gps and updating security via digital and satelite technology.
Is there anything happening with that respect?
I recently went to DCA and on the way back to ORD I must have spotted at least 10 aircrafts passing right underneath us. At one point there were 3 aircrafts crossing their paths. I wonder if right now piolats are relying only on the control tower and the alert system to know who is arounf them?

7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21880 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1985 times:



Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
Some time ago when the FAA changed the allowable levels of aircrafts from each other there was a lot of talk about putting gps and updating security via digital and satelite technology.
Is there anything happening with that respect?

Yes, but nothing that has affected required separation. The plan is for the NextGen ATC system to be GPS based, but that's still a long way off. The ADS-B technology is out there and being used, but currently no framework exists for using it as anything other than an advisory tool.

Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
I wonder if right now piolats are relying only on the control tower and the alert system to know who is arounf them?

That's correct (except that the control tower's jurisdiction is limited only to the immediate vicinity of an airport - there are other types of facilities handling aircraft for most of their flights).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

ADS-B technology is a long way from being commonplace. Many commercial planes don't have GPS at all.

And for the record, no pilot is simply "relying only on the control tower and the alert system to know who is around them"

First of all, and not to get overly nitpicky, the control tower only controls traffic in the immediate vicinity of an airport. TRACON and Center are the folks coordinating the higher altitude stuff. And flights are following published routes. Look, the nuts and bolts of air traffic control get very complicated. It's hardly the free-for-all it apparently seemed to you, looking out the window.

PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

Yes, but nothing that has affected required separation. The plan is for the NextGen ATC system to be GPS based, but that's still a long way off. The ADS-B technology is out there and being used, but currently no framework exists for using it as anything other than an advisory tool

Well its a major part of the HAR plan I guess.

Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
control tower and the alert system to know who is arounf them?

Sort of...... there is a thing called TCAS (Traffic Collision Alert System) which are in a lot of airplanes (requirement for DRVSM and other RVSM airspace) and these things "talk" to each other and give conflict resolutions.

The new thing is something called TIS (Traffic Info Service/System -I forgot which one it is-) and its gives traffic "advisories" about planes w/ proper Xponders. Its a new toy that is GPS based. The problem is that the GPS signals are not always around so many times (at least for me) its not working. It also is just for awareness unlike TCAS. Its currently found on newer GA planes right now (IE planes w/ the G1000 and the such) and will probably not make TCAS obsolete anytime soon.

I'm not sure but I don't think TIS meets the RVSM requirements though I have seen a few high performance planes w/ the G1000 have RVSM approval.

[Edited 2009-03-16 18:53:14]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21880 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1824 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 4):
The new thing is something called TIS (Traffic Info Service/System -I forgot which one it is-) and its gives traffic "advisories" about planes w/ proper Xponders. Its a new toy that is GPS based.

I thought TIS requires ground stations, and ADS-B was GPS based.

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 4):
I'm not sure but I don't think TIS meets the RVSM requirements though I have seen a few high performance planes w/ the G1000 have RVSM approval.

The G1000 can be made to work with TIS, ADS-B, TCAS, whatever.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1768 times:

My school was one of the first operators to implement this technology and I've played with it a lot since day 1 of my flight training, so here's my two cents:

Quoting WROORD (Thread starter):
Some time ago when the FAA changed the allowable levels of aircrafts from each other there was a lot of talk about putting gps and updating security via digital and satelite technology.

Airliners have had GPS units for decades. What you are thinking about is the switch from a radar based ATC system to a GPS based one, ADS-B is the solution to that.

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 4):
Its a new toy that is GPS based.

Not quite. ADS-B is solely GPS based, TIS-B is completely different in that it relies on radar/transponder signals being received by the controlling agency from non ADS-B aircraft (i.e. Mode S/C traffic)

Simply put, TIS-B is pretty much the same stuff an approach controller would see on his screen, and this is uplinked to ADS-B aircraft via a ground based transmitter through the plane's universal access transmitter (UAT).

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 4):
(Traffic Info Service/System -I forgot which one it is-)

Close, Traffic Information Services-Broadcast

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
The G1000 can be made to work with TIS, ADS-B, TCAS, whatever.

   The expandability and upgradeability of the G1000 is quite impressive.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I thought TIS requires ground stations, and ADS-B was GPS based.

Yes, and, sometimes. TIS-B always requires a GBT. And while there are some ADS-B GBT out there, they basically just function as repeaters. ADS-B aircraft can still "see" each other if they are within range, and even if neither one of them are not in range of an ADS-B GBT. The downside to not having an ADS-B GBT nearby is that you won't be able to receive other ADS-B information uplinks, like METARS, NOTAMS, etc.


Alright, I think that was enough acronyms for today, but here's some more good info on the subject:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...ons/bulletins/media/atb_aug_05.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...ts/enroute/surveillance_broadcast/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADS-B

[Edited 2009-03-16 19:31:08]

User currently offlineNomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

ADS-B sounds like shipboard AIS. Heading, speed and ship information are transmitted to stations and directly to other ships. Your unit sets off an alarm if any of the tracks are going to come dangerously close to yours. I guess you'd have to add a 3rd dimension to aircraft units.
Small boats can buy cheaper, receive only models to warn them of larger boats headed their way. Is there something similar for small planes that don't rate a full blown ADS-B?



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1544 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I thought TIS requires ground stations, and ADS-B was GPS based.

Aw thats right.........all I know is when it does work its pretty nice!


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