Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
DL CDG/AMS  
User currently offlineKennyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 81 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7170 times:

Hello all,

I've checked other threads but I haven't found anything answering the question to this topic, so here we go.

It's been said that the New DL's European "hub", if it is legitimate to call it so, will be CDG, and not AMS (which is/was NW's European "hub")

Why would DL opt for CDG over AMS?

I know DL flies more to CDG than AMS, but quality wise, I personally think CDG isn't very good for connecting pax.

Hoping you can give us all your opinions and what you think the criteria are.

Thank you!

[Edited 2009-03-22 19:05:09]

[Edited 2009-03-22 19:05:49]


Soarin'
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

Well, just from an outsiders POV.. I would say the following equation may have a little to do with it..

DL (CDG >AMS) took over NW (AMS < CDG)

AF (CDG > AMS) took over KL (AMS < CDG)

So it looks like CDG won out over AMS...

But, I could also be completely wrong..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7111 times:

Both will be used. DL doesn't have a European hub. The only service DL operates beyond CDG or AMS is AMSBOM by NW. One flight is not going to make a hub.

DL considers NRT a hub but that is its only hub outside of the US.

AF and KL are the same company and will both be partners of DL. Unless there is a move by AF to consolidate AMS and CDG, both will be key Skyteam hubs and DL will provide significant service to both.


User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7077 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 2):
Both will be used. DL doesn't have a European hub. The only service DL operates beyond CDG or AMS is AMSBOM by NW. One flight is not going to make a hub.

well, considering how much NW feeds into KLs network in AMS (way more than DL at CDG ever did) and further considering their trans-atlantic JV, I think one can definitely make a point when saying that AMS is one of NW's hubs - NW themself does. As NW is part of DL now, DL has a hub at AMS, like it or not.



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7076 times:



Quoting Kennyone (Thread starter):
I know DL flies more to CDG than AMS, but quality wise, I personally think CDG isn't very good for connecting pax.

You're not alone. But CDG is a bigger market, and AF offers more destinations from there than KL, so CDG is going to get the preference.

But that's not to say that AMS is going to go away entirely. Besides MEM and perhaps PDX, I don't think you'll see AMS lose any destinations - only some frequencies.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7066 times:



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 3):
As NW is part of DL now, DL has a hub at AMS, like it or not.

Pretty much every Delta press release ends with a paragraph that starts as follows:

Quote:
Delta Air Lines is the world’s largest airline. From its hubs in Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New York-JFK, Salt Lake City and Tokyo-Narita, Delta, its Northwest subsidiary and Delta Connection carriers offer service to 379 destinations in 66 countries and serve more than 170 million passengers each year.

Thus, straight from the horses' mouth, DL does not have a European hub. It's European partners, of which they have a JV with, do have hubs and DL feeds into them.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23021 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7049 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
But CDG is a bigger market, and AF offers more destinations from there than KL, so CDG is going to get the preference.

The bigger local market is important, but I'm not sure the differing number of destinations is. A passenger can reach all of the largest destinations from either AMS or CDG. What is the largest market (from the US) that has CDG service but not AMS service?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7036 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 5):
Thus, straight from the horses' mouth, DL does not have a European hub. It's European partners, of which they have a JV with, do have hubs and DL feeds into them.

okok, who am I to question the wisdom of the almighty DL....  Yeah sure

let's just say, NW had a hub at AMS which DL is in the process of dismantling, that's better?



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7005 times:



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 7):
okok, who am I to question the wisdom of the almighty DL....

It isn't about questioning "wisdom". By defination, a hub will have onward destinations where AMS has zilch for NW save India. NRT on the other hand is a different story.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6818 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
What is the largest market (from the US) that has CDG service but not AMS service?

Currently, I would think Salt Lake City (metro pop'n: 1.1m), but from June, Pittsburgh (metro pop'n: 2.4m).

Interestingly, AMS has service to a number of U.S. cities that CDG does not: BDL, MEM and PDX - as well as MSP until this summer.


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6755 times:



Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 9):
Interestingly, AMS has service to a number of U.S. cities that CDG does not: BDL, MEM and PDX - as well as MSP until this summer.

and DFW


User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6671 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 10):
Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 9):
Interestingly, AMS has service to a number of U.S. cities that CDG does not: BDL, MEM and PDX - as well as MSP until this summer.

and DFW

I was including all airlines so counted AA as flying CDG-DFW. You're right though - my interpretation was probably not best for comparing CDG and AMS as hubs.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

Likely, DL won't use AMS as much as NW did. The prime reason is that DL flies to way more destinations directly.

NW only served a limited number of cities from the US: LGW/LHR, AMS, FRA, CDG, FCO. All other Europe-bound traffic was sent via AMS on KL.

DL has a great network to Europe: many important destinations including CPH, TXL, PRG, MXP, ARN, ZRH, BCN, MAD, SVO are served directly from JFK and/or ATL. Therefore, there is less need to use KLs feeder flights for these destinations.

Still, AMS will fulfill a role in DLs future network, together with CDG. Basically, just like AF and KL feed multiple DL hubs in the US, DL will feed multiple SkyTeam hubs in Europe.

AF and KL have some destination specialization. Quite some niche destinations are only served from either AMS or CDG. In Europe, KLM focuses on Scandinavia, the Baltics and the UK, whereas AF focuses on Spain, Italy and the Balkan countries.

Long-haul (for what is interesting to DL), KLM and AF have very different African route networks.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23021 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6295 times:



Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 9):
Currently, I would think Salt Lake City (metro pop'n: 1.1m), but from June, Pittsburgh (metro pop'n: 2.4m).

 checkmark I was thinking of eastbound destinations, though-- i.e. Europe, Asia, and Africa.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5964 times:

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 9):
Currently, I would think Salt Lake City (metro pop'n: 1.1m), but from June, Pittsburgh (metro pop'n: 2.4m).

SLC serves the whole Wasatch Front, including three metro areas (really it is just one large one, but by definition it is 3) connected to each other. The 70 mi radius around SLC is about 2.5 million and growing rapidly.

[Edited 2009-03-23 11:55:35]

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5789 times:



Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 9):
Currently, I would think Salt Lake City (metro pop'n: 1.1m), but from June, Pittsburgh (metro pop'n: 2.4m).



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 14):
SLC serves the whole Wasatch Front, including three metro areas (really it is just one large one, but by definition it is 3) connected to each other. The 70 mi radius around SLC is about 2.5 million and growing rapidly.

I was about to say that I thought SLC was about the same size at PIT if not larger, and that area is still growing, too.

Speaking of the census, PIT is still shrinking, but this recession has actually slowed the population loss. The region only lost about a couple thousand, mostly folks fleeing from Allegheny County. Butler and Washington Counties, tho, are growing.

Coming back to the topic, isn't CDG larger than AMS in terms of number of pax and flights? I forget, how many flights do AF and KL have at their respective hubs?

Not to mention, from Paris, isn't much of Europe reachable by high speed rail? I know London is only about 2 hours away via the Chunnel.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineIpodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

I just flew back from AMS yesterday and i think it is probaly my favorite European airport. I would definetly choose to connect there next time i have to. One thing I dont like and maybe someone could answer why, but why is there no security until the gate (what i mean is why is the security checkpoint at each gate and not after one checks in like most airports?


AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/AC/FI/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ
User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5202 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 16):
I just flew back from AMS yesterday and i think it is probaly my favorite European airport. I would definetly choose to connect there next time i have to. One thing I dont like and maybe someone could answer why, but why is there no security until the gate (what i mean is why is the security checkpoint at each gate and not after one checks in like most airports?

Depends on the concourse.

The intercontinental concourses (D, E and F) have securty at each gate.

The Schegen concourses (A, B, C) have a common security.

I think it is to address intercontinental passengers connecting from some of the more "risky" / less "secure" countries, whose security standards may not match international requirements. Not saying this is right or wrong, just saying this is the way it is being handled.


User currently offlineKennyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5097 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 15):
Not to mention, from Paris, isn't much of Europe reachable by high speed rail? I know London is only about 2 hours away via the Chunnel.

 checkmark  That's absolutely right. France has the TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse = High Speed Train) mostly based out of Paris. The network is pretty large, and with plans of expanding it.

I'm not sure if that influences DL's decision though.



Soarin'
User currently offlineB707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5088 times:



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 16):
I just flew back from AMS yesterday and i think it is probaly my favorite European airport. I would definetly choose to connect there next time i have to. One thing I dont like and maybe someone could answer why, but why is there no security until the gate (what i mean is why is the security checkpoint at each gate and not after one checks in like most airports?

I just flew out of AMS last Thursday and wondered the same thing. The answer provided above about people coming from less secure countries connecting makes a lot of sense to me. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Amsterdam Schiphol. From playing the slots in the Casino to the Museum, to showering even if you're not travelling in business class, it is such a great international airport. I HATE HATE HATE Charles de Gaulle. Grey, dull, difficult to connect (downstairs, on bus, wait, cramped movements, stopping at other terminals, off bus, back through security, YUCH YUCH YUCH), small gates. I wish DL would focus more on AMS but I'd understand if it ends up Paris because there's obviously far more traffic going through CDG, isn't there? I hope they don't cut the DTW and MSP multiple MAS flight service. I'd hate to see them pull back on those.


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4988 times:



Quoting B707forever (Reply 19):
I HATE HATE HATE Charles de Gaulle. Grey, dull, difficult to connect (downstairs, on bus, wait, cramped movements, stopping at other terminals, off bus, back through security, YUCH YUCH YUCH), small gates.

Sounds awful! Is it really always this bad at CDG? I know LHR is bad for inter-terminal airside connections, but CDG sounds even worse?


User currently offlineKennyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4947 times:



Quoting Sankaps (Reply 20):
Sounds awful! Is it really always this bad at CDG? I know LHR is bad for inter-terminal airside connections, but CDG sounds even worse?

It is. Not mentioning the people are so hostile.

While waiting for my turn to go through security to connect on my TATL flight, a woman in front of me, from South America, didn't speak French and didn't understand what the security woman was telling her. Of course, no need to mention the security woman wouldn't even try to talk to her in English or try any ways of better communicating. She was swearing at the poor woman, in French, and literally shouting at her in front of everyone, saying she should have taken the boat instead of the plane if she didn't like the way she was being treated, blablabla....

So not just CDG's organization for transiting pax is bad, but the general personnel is very unfriendly. The example above is only one of many I have experienced or seen with my own eyes.



Soarin'
User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4803 times:



Quoting Kennyone (Reply 21):
So not just CDG's organization for transiting pax is bad, but the general personnel is very unfriendly. The example above is only one of many I have experienced or seen with my own eyes.

Wow!

Do elite level frequent fliers and business class customers get to bypass these lines (ie do they have their own dedicated prioritly lines at CDG for transfers and connections), or do they have to stand along with everyone else?


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 15):
Coming back to the topic, isn't CDG larger than AMS in terms of number of pax and flights? I forget, how many flights do AF and KL have at their respective hubs?

CDG is larger than AMS. I don't know how many flights they have exactly. But when it's about European destinations, there are some 20 destinations that ar

Unique short-haul destinations for AF from CDG (including some codeshares):
France: BES, PUF, MPL
Ireland: SNN
North-Africa: ALG, RBA, CMN, TUN
Italy: TRN, PSA, GOA, TRS, VRN, NAP
Spain: OVD, BIO, VGO (and VLC and AGP on codeshare by UX)
Central and Eastern Europe: LJU, SOF, ZAG, BEO
Germany: FMO, LEJ

Unique Short-haul destinations for KL from AMS:
Norway: KRS, BGO, SVG, TRD, TRF
Sweden: LPI
Latvia: RIX
Germany: CGN
UK: CWL, NWI, HUY, MME, GLA, LPL
Belgium: BRU

As you can see, there are some destinations that are only served from CDG, and some others that are only served from AMS, but the destinations that generate the majority of traffic are served from both airports. For African destinations, things are a bit different.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 15):
Not to mention, from Paris, isn't much of Europe reachable by high speed rail? I know London is only about 2 hours away via the Chunnel.

The High-speed rail is only relevant for French destinations and Brussels. There is no sense in flying Delta to CDG and then backtrack by train to London. Especially as you will first need to take the RER from CDG to Paris Gare du Nord, and then the Eurostar. As DL flies into LHR directly from most destinations, I don't see any sense in doing that.

The CDG rail station is not much of a hub, but more a station along one specific TGV line, the LGV Interconnexxion Est, a bypass station on the route Brussels - Lille - Lyon - Marseille. All destinations along this line are served very well: to go by train to any other destination, you typically need to get into central Paris by RER and Metro and find a new station - hardly convenient, when you can also change planes at CDG (or AMS, for the majority of French destinations) and land at you local airport.

Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 16):
One thing I dont like and maybe someone could answer why, but why is there no security until the gate (what i mean is why is the security checkpoint at each gate and not after one checks in like most airports?

New EU regulations require every EU airport to do this in the future. Schiphol has already started the process of changing the airport lay-out a while ago.

Quoting B707forever (Reply 19):
I wish DL would focus more on AMS but I'd understand if it ends up Paris because there's obviously far more traffic going through CDG, isn't there?

Definitely, CDG generates more traffic. So when DL knows that they can fill one aircraft to Europe from a new US city, they likely use CDG as the gateway. But when traffic warrants say 3 daily flights, it's a logical decision to send 2 flights to CDG and one to AMS: to cater the unique destinations from AMS, and to serve all the people that prefer AMS over CDG. Next to that, yields from AMS are - contrary to popular believe on the forum - quite healthy. Sure, there is virtually no First class demand (like there is from CDG or LHR), but demand for business class and full-fare Y tickets really justifies direct flights.

[Edited 2009-03-24 01:33:25]

User currently offlineJouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 22):
Do elite level frequent fliers and business class customers get to bypass these lines (ie do they have their own dedicated prioritly lines at CDG for transfers and connections), or do they have to stand along with everyone else?

There are fast track lanes for security and immigration in CDG for frequent fliers or passengers flying in business class. They are called "Acces n° 1". There is a specific service that involves no lanes for AF First Class passengers, whether they are departing or transferring. You don't even see the immigration officer. He is given your passport by a personal attendant and checks you out from outside the lounge where you are seated.

[Edited 2009-03-24 12:09:55]

25 Cubsrule : Why BDL-AMS, then? I'm not aware of any businesses in Connecticut with ties to Amsterdam specifically...
26 Humberside : LBA can also be added to that list
27 Haggis79 : probably due to the NW-KL joint venture and due to the fact that AMS is a way better connecting hub than CDG...
28 Cubsrule : I assume DL is calling the shots for both airlines...
29 Haggis79 : well, wasn't the route added before the merger?
30 LH469 : Any idea on how the SLC-CDG route is doing for DL? I see that they have pulled the summer schedule down again from 7/7 to 5/7 with no-op 2/4.
31 Cubsrule : The first time, yes, but NW cut it (allegedly permanently) in the fall and then brought it back.
32 Jkudall : Not sure what you saw, but it is still showing operating daily this summer, just like last summer. As for how it has been doing, it has been meeting
33 HT : Isn't that called a "seasonal" route ? From what I heard a while ago the service to (uncongested) BDL was/is to serve as a alternative to services to
34 KLM-MD11 : CDG is great in size but horrible as an airport to connect through. All above complainers are right. On top of that, they loose luggage when connectin
35 Haggis79 : AMS is only expensive when using it as a O/D airport... not when using it as a connection point. I think there are some Dutch taxes which only apply
36 Cubsrule : If that's the plan all along, then yes. But that wasn't the plan. The plan, at least according to NW, was that it was gone permanently.
37 Afitch7881 : ING Investment has it's US headquarters in Hartford.
38 Post contains links Afitch7881 : ING Life Insurance and Annuity Company One Orange Way Windsor, CT 06095-4774 Tel. 800.262.3862 Website: www.ingretirementplans.com
39 Slcdeltarumd11 : Right now i would have to think CDG is more to Deltas preference and future. Although AMS has quite a few advantages Since SLC-CDG has gone well i thi
40 Cubsrule : Why would SLC go from supporting zero TATL flights two years ago to supporting two? That's quite a shift...
41 Slcdeltarumd11 : WIll because the CEO of delta formerly said that London would be comng for SLC its a question of when not if. I think now with the NWA merger its gonn
42 Cubsrule : CEOs say lots of things (especially when they need support from local politicians)... so I ask again: if SLC could not support a single TATL flight t
43 Kennyone : Well isn't SLC one of DL's hubs? Knowing that DL is very well committed to it's European network, maybe adding non-stops TATL from SLC will satisfy t
44 Cubsrule : Right. All of that would explain CDG-SLC (and I'm certainly not arguing that CDG-SLC was a bad idea). But I have a hard time believing that SLC has g
45 Kennyone : I agree. Perhaps someone from DL has information for us?
46 Thestooges : This is a very interesting discussion because of that fact that NW and KL had one of the most succesful and profitable anti-trust operations over the
47 Kennyone : I think you're absolutely right and thank you for that info ! I'm sure DL have competent people up there who will know what is the right thing to do.
48 Paneuropean : Resume Editing Well I sure hope so.. Downgrading AMS to a focus city only, would leave the airport and KLM in an underdog position in the DL, AF netwo
49 Thestooges : Good point. I honestly don't know what the situation is. I'm not sure if Air France and Delta had an anti-trust agreement like Northwest and KLM did.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Flybe Major INV Expansion - Includes CDG, AMS posted Sat Jun 30 2007 10:54:44 by Humberside
LCC Between CDG-AMS? posted Wed Feb 8 2006 16:43:09 by Canib7599
CDG/AMS To HKG With CX On 09th Feb. posted Mon Jan 30 2006 09:00:10 by Flying Belgian
MAD, CDG, AMS Departure Tax? posted Sat Sep 17 2005 00:27:24 by Phxplanes
Varig Local Route CDG-AMS posted Thu Apr 7 2005 17:28:39 by Junction
CDG-AMS - Which Should I Go For? posted Sat May 8 2004 23:41:33 by Pe@rson
Varig 772: AMS-CDG-AMS posted Thu Oct 10 2002 11:55:16 by Ammunition
Varig CDG-AMS Bookable? posted Tue Sep 17 2002 09:51:11 by Admiral Ackbar
Varig Starts Amsterdam Again:GRU-CDG-AMS! posted Thu Aug 8 2002 06:13:37 by A380jet
When Will AMS See The A330 In DL Colors? posted Tue Feb 3 2009 03:14:52 by Varig767