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WN Seeking More Slots At LGA  
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7340 posts, RR: 14
Posted (5 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 7920 times:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...us.ART.State.Edition1.4aaa1ba.html

"Of course, things at LaGuardia are changing very rapidly. We're in touch with the Port Authority [of New York and New Jersey, which operates the airport] and with the FAA on that whole mix. I think we would like to find a way to acquire more slots," Montgomery said.

79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7857 times:

From the link in OP:

Southwest has declined to reveal where it plans to fly from LaGuardia, and the 14 slots will give it only seven departures a day.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7340 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7836 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 1):
From the link in OP:

Southwest has declined to reveal where it plans to fly from LaGuardia, and the 14 slots will give it only seven departures a day.

We knew that, but they had been saying that we were in a new era of small WN stations (MSP/BOS/LGA) that "just needed to be on the map". Now they are quoted as saying they need more slots. I'd say that is a change in official direction, although it was probably the plan all along.

Does that mean they intend to expand in MSP as well, despite saying otherwise?

[Edited 2009-03-26 11:30:17]

User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7765 times:

Smart move by WN. Opportunities for growth (be it new entrants or network carriers with many flights) at LGA are extremely limited; might as well obtain as many slots as possible during these pressing economic times. However, I imagine JetBlue, AirTran, and others may also be actively seeking slots. Will be interesting to see what transpires at the preferred New York City airport.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7735 times:



Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 3):
Smart move by WN.

I agree. It is a very astute move by WN to try and expand in a fairly low risk market while everyone else is cutting flights as fast as they can. Nice time to start a fare war.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7703 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 2):
Does that mean they intend to expand in MSP as well, despite saying otherwise?

Of course. Both markets have a large amount of potential expansion for WN. Better stuff than some of what they are currently flying elsewhere.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 3):
Opportunities for growth (be it new entrants or network carriers with many flights) at LGA are extremely limited;

The government would be wise to ensure there are opportunities for new entrants at LGA. It is official government policy to enhance and promote that type of opportunity for parties like WN.


User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7622 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
The government would be wise to ensure there are opportunities for new entrants at LGA. It is official government policy to enhance and promote that type of opportunity for parties like WN.

The government would be wise to not let LGA become more of a mess than it already is. The worst thing they could do is jump through hoops for a company that never had any interest in NY at the expense of those that have been building the market for years.


User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 7594 times:
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Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 6):
The government would be wise to not let LGA become more of a mess than it already is. The worst thing they could do is jump through hoops for a company that never had any interest in NY at the expense of those that have been building the market for years.

........and now flood it with a bunch of regional aircraft. I think less flights, more capacity is better deal at LGA.
Also, with money WN has stashed away, good time to acquire slots there for when the economy gets better they will be in a good position already, as opposed to reactionary position as times warrant.

As a guess, I'd say start of service be between Sept 10 and 19. Just my opinion.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 7585 times:



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 1):
and the 14 slots will give it only seven departures a day.

And all seven will be full.....day after day.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 7521 times:



Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 1):
From the link in OP:

Southwest has declined to reveal where it plans to fly from LaGuardia

Any ideas as to where WN will fly to LGA from? Given only 7 initial departures, are they likely to minimize no. of destinations and instead choose frequency to 1-2 destinations?


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7340 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 7453 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
Of course. Both markets have a large amount of potential expansion for WN. Better stuff than some of what they are currently flying elsewhere.

I'm glad you agree it is that transparent, but that will mean WW3 with Delta.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 7):

........and now flood it with a bunch of regional aircraft.

So, true. I'm betting that 30-40% of mainline slots are flown with RJs. Maybe more.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 9):

Any ideas as to where WN will fly to LGA from? Given only 7 initial departures, are they likely to minimize no. of destinations and instead choose frequency to 1-2 destinations?

I think they can get at least 2 more roundtrips really easily (another overnight and a mid-afternoon). So I'm going to pretend they have 9. I think you will see 5-6 MDW flights and the remainder will primarily go to BWI (or maybe MCO). When DAL opens up it is a lock you will see DAL, but that is 2013 I think.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19236 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 7432 times:

I flew out of LGA earlier this month. Were number 7 for departure - and it took 40 mins from brakes off to rollling. Hardly a great place for efficient, on-time operations. Moreover, when I landed at LGA, I counted 15 aircraft awaiting departure...


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7340 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 7336 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 11):
I flew out of LGA earlier this month. Were number 7 for departure - and it took 40 mins from brakes off to rollling. Hardly a great place for efficient, on-time operations. Moreover, when I landed at LGA, I counted 15 aircraft awaiting departure...

Sounds like a perfect day at LGA. Were you late arriving? I'm guessing no.


User currently offlineAA 777 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 808 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 7307 times:
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Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 11):
I flew out of LGA earlier this month. Were number 7 for departure - and it took 40 mins from brakes off to rollling. Hardly a great place for efficient, on-time operations. Moreover, when I landed at LGA, I counted 15 aircraft awaiting departure...

Ill have to second Enilria on that one. Anytime I'm leaving LGA and I only see 7 aircraft its a good day! 15 is probably about average if I had to guess....



CRJ-700 FO
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 7120 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 10):
I think they can get at least 2 more roundtrips really easily (another overnight and a mid-afternoon). So I'm going to pretend they have 9. I think you will see 5-6 MDW flights and the remainder will primarily go to BWI (or maybe MCO).

This assertion seems to suggest that the answer to the question you posed earlier is no:

Quoting Enilria (Reply 2):
Does that mean they intend to expand in MSP as well, despite saying otherwise?

DL has 7 MDW-LGA flights; AA and UA have 17 and 16 daily ORD-LGA flights, respectively. That suggests to me that WN needs more than 14 slots to competitively serve Chicago and have a few frequencies left over for, say, BWI.

If WN had 30 slots and was asking for more, I'd say that that portended expansion at MSP. I'm not so sure that trying to go from 14 slots to, say, 24 does.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 7066 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
The government would be wise to ensure there are opportunities for new entrants at LGA. It is official government policy to enhance and promote that type of opportunity for parties like WN.

I don't. Number one who do you take slots from? The big 3 AA,US,DL will take the FAA to court and likely win because they had to buy most of those slots. The LCCs are in the same boat as WN. They would be very stupid to add more slots to the pool and even then they couldn't just "give" them to WN. More than likely they would have to bid for them and they might now win. While I think it would be fair for WN to get more slots thats not the way the system works. Now that WN has slots I do not believe PANYNJ or the FAA(or DOT) has to give WN anything.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
DL has 7 MDW-LGA flights; AA and UA have 17 and 16 daily ORD-LGA flights, respectively. That suggests to me that WN needs more than 14 slots to competitively serve Chicago and have a few frequencies left over for, say, BWI.

IMHO They shouldn't push all they slots to MDW anyways unless they can get 10-15. With 7 they may be safer going all in to BWI and try to push FL out of the market.



yep.
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 7021 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
IMHO They shouldn't push all they slots to MDW anyways unless they can get 10-15. With 7 they may be safer going all in to BWI and try to push FL out of the market.

What market? FL doesn't fly BWI-LGA unless you mean trying to push FL out of BWI altogether.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 6885 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
While I think it would be fair for WN to get more slots thats not the way the system works. Now that WN has slots I do not believe PANYNJ or the FAA(or DOT) has to give WN anything.

WN is playing nice. They seem to be willing to pay for what they are getting.

But, I don't think LGA has ever had a slot auction. The government has not been paid a dime, so far as I can determine. Therefore, these permits are government property.

In 2007, the Bush government went pretty far towards a total re-auction of all LGA slots. Would the proceeds have gone to the incumbents? I can't see why really. The proceeds could instead go to the Feds. My preference, slots could be rented out for 2-5 year time periods, on a rolling or staged basis. This would make sure gentleman's agreements would not crop up such as the DL/US/AA squeezing out of competitors, which if you want to get technical, could be broken up by the DOJ if they really felt like it.

No matter who owns what, the govt has its priorities. Transport effectiveness and anti-trust are both key priorities of the government, and they have wide powers to enforce both, including breaking up airlines or dictating terms. Once WN really gets going at LGA, some articles may come out asking why WN "can't buy" enough slots, because there is no free market for them, just a smoky room of gentlemen laughing.


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5694 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 6803 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 2):
Does that mean they intend to expand in MSP as well, despite saying otherwise?

Yes, Kelly stated he wants to see where other people are booking out of MDW and if demand is fit will add the non stop destinations out of MSP. Right now this is a testing stage to see where people are really flying to out of MSP via the MDW connection.

Quoting Enilria (Reply 10):
When DAL opens up it is a lock you will see DAL, but that is 2013 I think.

2014 actually.

Yes, LGA-DAL is a lock for sure.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 6659 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 18):
Yes, Kelly stated he wants to see where other people are booking out of MDW and if demand is fit will add the non stop destinations out of MSP.

That puzzles me. I like WN, and I fly them a lot. But if I have the choice between a n/s on NW and a one-stop on WN for the same price, I'm going to pick NW every time. If it's a n/s on WN and a n/s on NW, the calculus is quite a bit different.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5694 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 6619 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
That puzzles me. I like WN, and I fly them a lot. But if I have the choice between a n/s on NW and a one-stop on WN for the same price, I'm going to pick NW every time. If it's a n/s on WN and a n/s on NW, the calculus is quite a bit different.

I think that's the idea of offering only MSP-MDW first, see if say ok wow over 100 people are booking MSP-MDW-LAS there's demand for it, and open the non stop.

Since as noted before MSP-Chicago is strong in it's own self, WN doesn't lose to much out of it.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 6616 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 20):
see if say ok wow over 100 people are booking MSP-MDW-LAS there's demand for it, and open the non stop.

My point, though, is that there might be demand for MSP-LAS even if 100 people are not booking MSP-MDW-LAS, and if Kelly is looking at bookings to figure out whether they can expand from MSP, he might miss that demand.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5694 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 6540 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
My point, though, is that there might be demand for MSP-LAS even if 100 people are not booking MSP-MDW-LAS, and if Kelly is looking at bookings to figure out whether they can expand from MSP, he might miss that demand.

I don't know if that is EXACTLY what Kelly is doing, but if you notice in the past, almost all the open cities are former ATA cities. Also, they are all started to MDW or other big cities by WN purely to see where the connection goes to. However, Kelly already has access to them from ATA/WN codeshare and already knows where the WN folks were flying to on ATA.

This is proved by RSW, DEN, SFO, PHL, MSP, and now BOS and LGA. So Kelly already has the booking access from ATA, and I guess MSP-MDW were strongest for ATA and will expand more if needed based on bookings.

I mean hey, it's worked for the past 36 yrs, I won't question it!  Silly

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7340 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 6516 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
DL has 7 MDW-LGA flights; AA and UA have 17 and 16 daily ORD-LGA flights, respectively. That suggests to me that WN needs more than 14 slots to competitively serve Chicago and have a few frequencies left over for, say, BWI.

Delta is flying RJs, right? That's automatically inferior IMHO. They don't need to match RJ frequency.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
If WN had 30 slots and was asking for more, I'd say that that portended expansion at MSP. I'm not so sure that trying to go from 14 slots to, say, 24 does.

That's definitely an opinion. You must have a magnifying glass to split hairs that finely, but you may be right...or not. The fun is yet to come.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 6496 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 23):
Delta is flying RJs, right? That's automatically inferior IMHO. They don't need to match RJ frequency.

Yes, -175s. A pretty flexible a/c if you ask me, and much more comfortable 2-2 and than 3-3. However, they can and will put larger a/c on the route to "match" WN if need be. I would think the Grand Daddys has the upper hand for now in the market.



What gets measured gets done.
25 Aaron747 : So, in other words, competition is only valid when it comes in the form of established market actors? What kind of economic reasoning is that? How is
26 2707200X : Some cities WN may oparate from LGA can include FLL, MCO, TPA, BWI, and MDW.
27 USAirALB : I would love to see WN flying LGA-BUF/ALB. Theres no doubt they can make it work, but the slots would most likely go to other routes. Distance is not
28 Enilria : I think it would be suicide for DL to upgrade it. DL has minimal feed in LGA and none in MDW. WN has a gigantic hub in MDW. WN has much more ability
29 STT757 : If they could get the slots I'm sure they would love to add BNA, BUF, RDU, BOS, PIT and IAD.
30 Av8orwalk : Excuse my ignorance, but what's the big deal with LGA-BUF? Everyone keeps mentioning that route. Wouldn't LGA-ALB (the State Capital) be more popular?
31 BMI727 : Assuming that they can get slots to do it. I don't know. Those slots might be too valuable to use on Nashville and Raleigh. They could be more profit
32 Eghansen : What exactly is changing at LGA? The airport is dominated by USA, UAL, AAL and DAL as it has been for decades. These four airlines have grandfathered
33 IgneousRocks : Its the entrenched legacy carriers and their regional partners that are almost 100% responsible for making La Guardia the mess that it is.
34 USAirALB : What is WN's shortest flight? Is it RSW-PBI? I know ALB is longer than that to LGA.
35 DCA-ROCguy : Excuse my ignorance, but what's the big deal with LGA-BUF? Everyone keeps mentioning that route. Wouldn't LGA-ALB (the State Capital) be more popular?
36 SNCntry32 : When was the last time, if ever, WN closed a station? What if, despite what everyone says, DL does the unthinkable and beats WN in the MSP market? I
37 Eghansen : RSW/PBI do not have competitive Amtrak service nor do they have typical 40 minute delays to take off. Incidently, Southwest's route map only shows fl
38 QANTAS747-438 : We've closed a few cities in the past, but the last one was IAH in 2004/2005.
39 PHLBOS : Since WN still serves the Houston area via HOU (one of WN's original 3 airports), their leaving IAH does NOT mean that they stopped serving the city.
40 SNCntry32 : Define region. WN is in MDW and thats about as far north as they get when it comes to serving the midwest. So in a sense, yes they do serve the Midwe
41 MtnWest1979 : The first time WN pulled out of DEN.
42 Enilria : The Bush administration was attempting to grab slots and resell them. I think that is what they are referring to. DEN (back now) SFO (back now) BPT D
43 Cubsrule : Why is an E-Jet inferior to a 737? The interiors are quite similar; if anything, the E-Jet is slightly better by virtue of the lack of middle seats.
44 Atrude777 : As mentioned the shortest WN route in their entire system is RSW-MCO. Before that it was PVD-ISP (I think) before WN pulled out of that route. As men
45 TZTriStar500 : Except these MDW ATA markets were never codeshare markets with WN.
46 LoneStarMike : HOU was not one of Southwest's original 3 airports. They initially flew into IAH along with DAL and SAT. Some IAH flights were shifted to HOU in Nove
47 Iowaman : IIRC MSP was a codeshare city, as it was possible to fly MSP-MDW on ATA and then MDW-XXX on WN.
48 SNCntry32 : Burnsie lives in Grank Forks and restaussred, My parents still do not know what Southwest is. They will need to rely heavliy on adversments in MSP to
49 Isitsafenow : I cannot disagree. We here in central Michigan know of NW, DL and UA. Most folks here that fly very little see the Southwest ads on tv but think they
50 WN57787 : WN started Service to PHL before ATA was in the Pitcher with WN!!!
51 Atrude777 : I realize that, but I noticed when I did CSA, and did some checking, from the point on since mentioning PHL, every city we started at for WN seemed t
52 TZTriStar500 : While I am sure you could do that, ATA ended MSP service before it could have been added as a codeshare city. Not all ATA cities started out as codes
53 DfwRevolution : At WN's average load factor, 80% of the middle seats don't need to be occupied. That means more room for the other passengers flying in the 737, not
54 Enilria : The interior is only a little worse (not as much overhead bin space and simply smaller), but the fact is that customers don't like small planes and t
55 Cubsrule : Most cities aren't as big as New York, though. I think that if they had been able to, they would have started LGA with something like 10x MDW and 5x
56 DeltaL1011man : FL doesn't have LGA-BWI? Alright then its a free market for WN. Have 4-5 daily BWI and the rest to MDW E75 but it could get 319s or M88s if they need
57 Enilria : I suppose, but they still don't like to come in guns a blazin'...although they have done it a few times. I think it's just as true, but biz travelers
58 Slcdeltarumd11 : I'm not sure if they would want to enter the Florida market, lots of competition and low fares, WN is very smart. I think they are going to go to BWI
59 Atrude777 : Really Dude? WN was built up 100% after the Business Folks, look at all the short haul routes they fly in california, texas, STL-MDW, STL-MCI, and Fl
60 Cubsrule : But if they "suffer" once, won't they learn that the E-Jets have an excellent onboard product?
61 ScottB : Not just that, but in the 80s, one of Southwest's advertising tag lines was "The Company Plane." The name of the frequent flyer program before "Rapid
62 Grain : i guarantee 100% that MSP was a code share, as was SFO(with direct HNL) flights also. i used to drive the bags from WN flights to the TZ transfer yar
63 Chrisair : Last year they had something on board (I can't remember if it was on the napkins or the peanut wrappers) that was similar to this, saying with all of
64 Enilria : I know biz travelers who avoid all RJs even though they have tried them. I would say the E product is still inferior to a mainline plane, just not by
65 Cubsrule : How do those folks define "RJ?"
66 Enilria : Simplistically, if it says "Operated By" somewhere they avoid it *period*. I don't think that is uncommon.
67 PHLBOS : Thanks for the update/correction. Nonetheless, despite my earlier error regarding which Houston airport WN started at, my orignal point regarding WN
68 Cubsrule : That's probably as good a definition as any, but I think it's irrational. A RW 175 is just as safe and just as comfortable (in Y) as a mainline US 19
69 PHLBOS : Although, there are many CODE-SHARED flights (not sure if such situations exist at LGA) between mainline carriers that use the same Operated By desig
70 STT757 : I think on the weekends they might reduce the frequencies to MDW and offer a couple Florida trips and maybe even a Las Vegas flight on Saturdays which
71 Enilria : I think people avoid those too. If I'm on Delta's website and they have a CO flight, I just go to CO's website and book there rather than have the ha
72 Cubsrule : But again, while the "operated by" distinction works in 80% of the cases, there's another 20% where it's stupid. I recently booked STL-ATL-JAX-MEM-ST
73 PHLBOS : The thing is (and I've seen this very often when comparing UA vs. US flights) is that sometimes when one books an itinerary that involves using a cod
74 Enilria : If it saves money I'll do it, but you must avoid it. Doesn't it seem like it always makes matters more difficult? When something goes wrong with the
75 Yellowtail : I think we will see them back at IAH some day...it is the perfect spot with proven traffic to do MTY, MEX, CUN etc from once they decide to go intern
76 Cubsrule : No. If you find out your PNR on the other carrier (that's relatively easy to do for DL and NW; not sure about UA and US), it should be as easy for th
77 Enilria : I've been told on NW operated by DL (about a year ago) that to change my ticket I needed to go to the NW counter which meant exiting security. Forget
78 Cubsrule : Didn't I tell you exactly what you are getting: two one way tickets for the price of a round trip? If you know your DL PNR, that's shear laziness. DL
79 Post contains links HB-IWC : Please continue this discussion in the following thread regarding the announcement of the WN LGA services: WN LGA Starts 6/28 This thread is archived.
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