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Order For 20 Bombardier CSeries  
User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 24388 times:

Nice to see a new order for this aircraft! Any ideas which airlines they will be leased to?

Quote:
Bombardier Aerospace announced today that Lease Corporation International Aviation (New Buildings) Limited has signed a firm purchase agreement for three CS100 and 17 CS300 jetliners. The purchaser, which also took options on a further 20 CSeries aircraft, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Lease Corporation International Limited (LCI). LCI is a privately owned aircraft leasing company that owns and leases planes to major airlines.

Source: http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2246728/

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHRlocal From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 24368 times:

Brilliant news! Nice to see a new aircraft earn new orders, hopefully this will give other airlines the confidence to get behind a brand new clean sheet offering.

User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23936 times:

http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/LCI-CSeries300-LR.jpg

Official press release: http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...ses/details?docID=0901260d8008dc54


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 23831 times:

At the moment the GTF started looking good, the CSeries did. Airbus and Boeing saying they felt a successor for their NB's wasn't needed until 2020 also helped.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...wbody-development-on-the-back.html

The hotspot (bulk) of the narrowbody market is 140-160 seats <1200nm. I think the CSeries can cover this big segment at significantly lower operating costs then 737 and A320 series.



I think a moderate stretch of the CS300 will land the CSeries right in the middle of 737/A320 territory.

Those 2 platforms are dimensioned to also carry 210 passengers over 3000nm and carry cargo. But at a (OEW) price the bulk of the market is no longer willing to pay.

Its like driving a SUV in the city. It has the capasity & range to do so, and a lot more, but for some reason nobody buys them anymore.

I think Airbus is investing in a A320 midlife upgrade. http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...sibleenhancements.jpg?t=1238427720

I expect Boeing to make a strategic decision on the 120-250 segments first. The 737 backlog isn't a solid as it looks IMO, maybe time is catching up on the 737.

Boeing itself focussing on a 180-250 seater Light Twin and teaming with BBD or Embraer for 120-170 seats still doesn't sound unlikely to me.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...al_aviation/read.main/4286853/1/#1

[Edited 2009-03-30 09:15:56]

User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 23704 times:



Quoting ENU (Thread starter):
Any ideas which airlines they will be leased to?

B6 is a possibility though with the current ecomony quite remote. Also DB SK and other European operators of CRJs...



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 23675 times:

I believe this is the first order for CS300. At 31" pitch, CS300 can seat 135 in all Y, and with wider seats/aisle can be as comfortable as B737-700(32" pitch, 140 Y seats).

User currently offlineKennyK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 23580 times:

Ok who is next?, and I don't think it will be too long before we know either, great news.

User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 23447 times:



Quoting KennyK (Reply 6):
Ok who is next?, and I don't think it will be too long before we know either, great news.

I bet on SK (they said they were looking at it), once the LH merger is complete, SN, AT, & co and perhaps some orders from Japan? China must buy their ARJ's, maybe they'd buy some CS300's?
AC is also on my favorites list thought they recently got their Embraer's.

Many many many U.S. regionals could use this type, but for now, there is no money around, so it's hard to believe that there would be any firm orders from there.

This proves to me that R. Aboulafia is nothing but a cheap amateur paid alot of money for unjustified opinions  Wink


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 23252 times:

Excellent news. 50 firm and 50 options...and counting.


What the...?
User currently offlineLegacytravel From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1067 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 23213 times:

Maybe it is YX.  eyepopping 

Wait they would rather outsource than have their own planes anymore.

Mark in MKE



I love the smell of Jet fuel in the Morning
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4589 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 23090 times:
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Quoting NCB (Reply 7):
and perhaps some orders from Japan?

I'll bet good money most if not all Japanese carriers will buy the MRJ, and you can probably put the Taiwanese carriers in that group too now that AIDC is a supplier. remember the YS11?


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12773 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 23003 times:
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Quoting KennyK (Reply 6):
Ok who is next?, and I don't think it will be too long before we know either, great news.

I'm curoius who else is interested. 50 firm and 50 options is nice...
But not enough for long term sales.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 10):
I'll bet good money most if not all Japanese carriers will buy the MRJ, and you can probably put the Taiwanese carriers in that group too now that AIDC is a supplier. remember the YS11?

I would suspect Korea too. But as far as Pratt's concerned, its another (lower cost) GTF sale!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 5):
I believe this is the first order for CS300. At 31" pitch, CS300 can seat 135 in all Y, and with wider seats/aisle can be as comfortable as B737-700(32" pitch, 140 Y seats).

Concurr... almost makes one wonder why it wasn't made just a little bit longer to have 150 at 30" for the European market and 135 Y for WN competition.  box 

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 22982 times:

What is the status of this project? Is it currently still in design? or is design halted until they have more orders?

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 22884 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):

Concurr... almost makes one wonder why it wasn't made just a little bit longer to have 150 at 30" for the European market and 135 Y for WN competition.

That's not out of the question...final design freeze isn't until next year. If enough customers want it, 150 seats at 32" pitch is probably doable.



What the...?
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 22880 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 5):
I believe this is the first order for CS300. At 31" pitch, CS300 can seat 135 in all Y, and with wider seats/aisle can be as comfortable as B737-700(32" pitch, 140 Y seats).

Concurr... almost makes one wonder why it wasn't made just a little bit longer to have 150 at 30" for the European market and 135 Y for WN competition.

If CS300 was another 2.5' longer, it would accommodate:

135 seats at 32" pitch
140 at 31" pitch(direct competition to B737-700)
150 at 30" pitch(perhaps acceptable for routes less than 700 nm, especially in Europe/Asia)

I think it would have made sense to lengthen the CS300 by 2.5', as 5-abreast BBD airframe will not be competitive against an all new B737 6-abreast airframe(with GTF engine) beyond 150 seats.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 22500 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Concurr... almost makes one wonder why it wasn't made just a little bit longer to have 150 at 30" for the European market and 135 Y for WN competition.

Because 137 is WN's magic number...  Wink It should be two more rows at 30" for 140  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently online2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 22099 times:

Nice, this is good news, this brings the CSeries closer to fruition as it can bee a successor to early A320 and 737NG aircraft.
 optimist   bouncy   box 



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20106 times:

Looking at the relative bulky C110 design / OEW, the dimensions of the wings and GTF power range options I have little doubt a CS500 is already engineered in, landing Cseries right in 737/A320 territory.

It would offer less range / cargo capability then those aircraft. But when fuel goes $148 again this won't be a problem for the majority of applications and more then enough 737/A320s around to fill those missions.

sketch I made last yr

I think Bombardier needs more industrial muscle to realize a strong position in the 130-160 segment and think we'll see some type of JV / merge in the future.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12773 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 19641 times:
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Quoting KELPkid (Reply 15):
Because 137 is WN's magic number...

I sit corrected.  Smile

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
If CS300 was another 2.5' longer, it would accommodate:

135 seats at 32" pitch
140 at 31" pitch(direct competition to B737-700)
150 at 30" pitch(perhaps acceptable for routes less than 700 nm, especially in Europe/Asia)

I think it would have made sense to lengthen the CS300 by 2.5', as 5-abreast BBD airframe will not be competitive against an all new B737 6-abreast airframe(with GTF engine) beyond 150 seats.

Good numbers. I didn't realize it was only 30 more inches to be that much more competitive.  hyper 

The 150 at 30" pitch would work in certain short haul markets. For example, I could see U2 trying to cut CASM going up against FR. Or perhaps Flybe could upgauge?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTylerDurden From United States of America, joined May 2008, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 19572 times:



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
If enough customers want it, 150 seats at 32" pitch is probably doable.

Not gonna happen.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
the dimensions of the wings and GTF power range options I have little doubt a CS500 is already engineered in, landing Cseries right in 737/A320 territory

No, it's not.

The funding for the CSeries with risk sharing partners is rigid in the 85-149 seat configuration (based on 5 x 30")

This is predicated on two factors bound by contract:

The bottom limit of 85 seats for the CSeries is seen as the least likely to interfere with AVIC’s own ARJ (in which BBD is investing $100M). This aircraft is seen as a regional effort with most sales within China. This limit is basically meaningless since the base CSeries is 110 seats and it’s highly unlikely they would offer a smaller version at any point. Other aircraft from BBD are exempt from this limit.

The 149 seat upper end is limited by AVIC’s non-compete agreement with Airbus who does not want AVIC—through their investment with BBD encroaching on their largest sales segment. Since the Airbus/AVIC joint venture represents an almost $2.3B investment—it far outstrips any financial benefit they may ever have with the Canadian manufacturer. Both final joint venture agreements were signed within days of each other---which speaks volumes.

While it’s great to say that BBD will increase the capacity of the CSeries---they contractually have painted themselves into a corner on further growth in this series. Whether this gamble to secure financing will produce the necessary ROI will be known in about five years or so. In better financial times, it’s likely they would have subcontracted all the work instead of taking on risk sharing partners and being constrained to these limits.

So, you may see a 150+ seat Bombardier….but it won’t be a CSeries….and it won’t come cheap.

So design all the six-abreast layouts and stretches you want….but speculating that this aircraft will grow beyond the CS300 is basically moot---and is nothing more than ‘flights of fancy’ at this point.

It’s all out there on the web, boys.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 19505 times:



Quoting TylerDurden (Reply 19):
While it’s great to say that BBD will increase the capacity of the CSeries---they contractually have painted themselves into a corner on further growth in this series

149 Seats overlaps with the Airbus family anyway, and how do the Comac 919 and the stretched ARJ21 fit in?

Piece of paper, specially with the Chinese, they're "flexible". If the market situation changes, it changes. And if demand arises the agreements are amended and adjusted. Mark my words.


User currently offlineTylerDurden From United States of America, joined May 2008, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 19487 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
Piece of paper, specially with the Chinese, they're "flexible". If the market situation changes, it changes. And if demand arises the agreements are amended and adjusted. Mark my words.


Nope. AVIC's agreement is not just with BBD..it's also with Airbus not to compete in this sector. It would be interesting to see the response and the ensuing litigation with the world's largest airliner manufacturer in breaking this contract. It would be devasting to AVIC and particularly BBD. Mark my words.


BTW...I see the CSeires will now sport two overwing exits (pop up 737 style)...you may want to include that in your next fantasy schematic.
 Smile


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 19427 times:

About the Chinese (The Chinese, there is centralized control)

- They sit on the money
- The buy aircraft by the hundreds, from everybody
- The have a unique track record regarding IP / agreements

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3372277/
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090313/120554173.html


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 19328 times:

Quoting TylerDurden (Reply 19):

The 149 seat upper end is limited by AVIC’s non-compete agreement with Airbus who does not want AVIC—through their investment with BBD encroaching on their largest sales segment.

That obligation only exists if AVIC is doing the work, not for BBD. AVIC is responsible for the center fuselage section for the current models.

If BBD wants off the hook, they could have the necessary pieces for a larger plane built elsewhere.

I'm not saying it will be done but it certainly could be done. If BBD wants into the +150 market, it will be a long way down the road after the CSeries is already established. At the moment, they have the 110-149 market to themselves. It's much better for them if they keep on flying under the radar and keep it that way for a while.

[Edited 2009-03-31 09:25:41]


What the...?
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 19303 times:

Does the AVIC/Airbus agreement on 149 seat specify seat pitch, and no. of seat classes?

Quoting TylerDurden (Reply 19):
The 149 seat upper end is limited by AVIC’s non-compete agreement with Airbus who does not want AVIC—through their investment with BBD encroaching on their largest sales segment.



25 OyKIE : Have you gotten the OEW for the CS100 and CS130? I remember your first model was based on a theoretically model, but it has now been released by BBD.
26 TylerDurden : If they were only a subcontractor, that would be the case. As a risk sharing partner---and largest outside investor...they actually own a piece of th
27 JoeCanuck : It depends on how it was written. If it specifically deals with particular models or relates to any aircraft, (including potential aircraft), in the
28 TylerDurden : Interesting comment, but it's not AVIC that wanted the protection of that agreement. It will be interesting to see what the terms are once it becomes
29 Post contains links JoeCanuck : I can't find the article but I seem to remember it being mentioned that customers wanted a higher MTOW and that resulted in more structure, so a high
30 Viscount724 : Only two lavatories for 170 passengers (or even 150) is totally inadequate in my opinion. Do any other current aircraft have only 2 lavatories for 17
31 Keesje : I guess addition overwing exits, addition galley capasity etc would work too. I cut & pasted this in a few minutes.. BBD own layout in reply 3 shows
32 NCB : Japanese airlines will order MRJ's, in fact NH already has some on order. But these aircraft are in a lower seat-count market (below 100), so C-serie
33 LAXDESI : My updated numbers based on BBD site and the link in reply 29 by JoeCanuck: .........CS130ER... B737-700 OEW ....78,200.... 83,000 MTOW 139,100.. 154
34 Connies4ever : Ironically, as BBD bulk up the order book for the CSeries (or maybe CS-series), they're announcing a 10% aerospace workforce cut worldwide today, abou
35 Panais : How about using those Thompson seats?
36 CRJ900 : I believe Easyjet, Cebu Pacific and Germanwings only have two lavs for 156 pax on their A319s... and that is enough? But perhaps LCCs get away with t
37 Post contains links Keesje : SAS and Air Canada are also studying the CSeries, citing Airbus/Boeing "2020" .. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-early-narrowbody-replacement
38 LAXDESI : As per Seat Guru, AC has 37 A319s configured with 14J and 106Y seats. CS300ER will be a perfect substitute with 20%-25% lower fuel costs. AC also has
39 CEO@AFG : Keesje, have been following your fine work with graphic presentations of the C-series from day one. I feel however I should point out a glaring omissi
40 Kaneporta1 : ...as well as a second pair of overwing exits.
41 JoeCanuck : With final design freeze not scheduled until next year, I would be very surprised if BBD isn't working very closely with customers, (and potential cus
42 TylerDurden : In all fairness, I imagine they also studied the A380 as well. Getting them to commit, particularly since both are financially ailing will be quite a
43 Lightsaber : AC would almost seem to a given for political reasons. That is... assuming a 'fair' price can be negotiated. For SAS, they might use the threat of an
44 LAXDESI : I don't see why not. A six foot stretch takes CS300 to 140Y/145Y seats at 32"/31" pitch--well under the 149 seat agreement of AVIC/Airbus.
45 TylerDurden : Simple. Because maximum capacity is based on 30" pitch (not 31 or 32) @ 5 abreast---maximum 149 seats. Suppose the cabin could have been made a bit l
46 LAXDESI : Is the above seat pitch, for max. seat calculation, part of AVIC/Airbus contract? In any event, CS300ER could be considered as a near perfect replace
47 JoeCanuck : Is this industry standard or just with the CSeries? QR didn't say what they wanted from BBD besides cheaper prices.
48 Post contains images Keesje : No doubt additional lavatories and gally options are part of the configuration catalogue. Its up to the airlines. Additional overwing exits would be
49 Mrocktor : BBD is not legally bound by AVIC's commitments, nor liable if AVIC breaks them. And anyone who trusts the Chinese government deserves what he gets.
50 TylerDurden : No one is contesting that. However, if one agreement (by any member) is broken for the sole purpose of enriching another, then, yes, they can be held
51 Post contains links LAXDESI : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-to-reduce-larger-engine-drag.html From the above link: Combined with flights on its Boeing 747 testbed, the en
52 LAXDESI : As promised, I will now compare CS300ER to B737-700 replacement(Y1). .........CS300ER... B737-700(Y1) OEW ....78,200.... 80,000 MTOW 139,100.. 150,000
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