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Korean Air, Why Not Major Kangaroo Route Player?  
User currently offlineLinglesou From Australia, joined Apr 2009, 123 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12124 times:

G'day all;
Korean Air now operates services to MEL, BNE, SYD and at times CNS. Whenever you place a dummy booking from any of the aforementioned ports to a European destination on the KE website the flights always seem ridiculously expensive sometimes 4 times what is reasonable to pay on a route such as MEL-ICN-FRA. Why is this? I would think that with reasonable connections KE would be able to have a reasonable slice of the Australia-Europe/Europe-Australia traffic but with prices the way they are no-one is going to choose them...


YOU SHALL BUILD A TURTLE FENCE
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePewpew320 From New Zealand, joined Mar 2009, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12117 times:

I'm not sure, ICN is a great airport to transfer through and their service is really good, I've also found it odd that if you look for flights from say LHR to AKL the prices are often 25 - 30% cheaper.

User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12113 times:



Quoting Linglesou (Thread starter):
I would think that with reasonable connections KE would be able to have a reasonable slice of the Australia-Europe/Europe-Australia traffic but with prices the way they are no-one is going to choose them...

I agree, they do seem to do a good job connecting Europe to Japan. Hell, when I was flying KE to from LHR to NGO via ICN, there were both pilot and cabin crew announcements in Japanese, as well as Korean and English.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19245 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12102 times:

Not about this per se, but there's a great article in this month's ATW about ICN developing to become a major transit airport, among many other things.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 3011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12103 times:

It is definatelt a surprise considering that KE was known for its cheaper fares at one stage.

I always thought that it was a much longer distance via ICN on the Australia to Europe route but it is only about 300 miles longer via ICN than via SIN on MEL-LHR.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12057 times:

ICN isnt really a direct routing for the Kangaroo route. Even HKG is a bit more circuitous than SIN and BKK

User currently offlineAidanoc5793 From Ireland, joined Apr 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12020 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
ICN isnt really a direct routing for the Kangaroo route

yes that is right, but also KE don't operate enough frequencies to Europe and the Middle East, KE are competeing against some of the best airlines in the world SQ, CX ect all with frequent flights to world cities, although for flights from Northern europe such as stockholm, seoul would be a perfect transfer destination to australia


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11949 times:

Asiana used to have competitive prices between Oceania and Europe and you got a nights accommodation in Seoul if you wanted to. A stopover in Korea was always free as well.

They were often among the cheapest you could find between Sydney/Auckland and London.

They don't fly to Auckland anymore though. Auckland was to low yielding apparently...



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineJQFlightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 1001 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11919 times:

im thinking about flying KE BNE-ICN-AMS in november, and they offer less connection time in ICN which is a great thing for me as i dont like hanging around airports. i think its something like a 4 hr wait, wereas JL BNE-NRT-AMS is a 18hr wait in NRT for connecting flight to AMS... and also alot of australian's going to Japan for skiing choose KE as its easy to get a flight into say Sapporo for eg.  Smile


Next Trip: PER-DPS-KUL-BKK-HKT-CNX-BKK-SIN-PER
User currently offlineAllrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2193 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11846 times:



Quoting JQFlightie (Reply 8):
im thinking about flying KE BNE-ICN-AMS in november, and they offer less connection time in ICN which is a great thing for me as i dont like hanging around airports. i think its something like a 4 hr wait,

Is that all? It seemed to me that Sydney - Europe flights via Korea involved an overnight outbound and a long stopover in ICN on the way back. I've flown Asiana/KLM on this route and quite enjoyed the stopovers (rather than overnight at ICN we stayed at Dongdaemun in Seoul and enjoyed the all night markets), though the daylight stopover was punishing - two overnight flights in a row.

Another factor is that Korea is relatively unknown as a tourist destination for Australians, though the KNTO work hard to change that.



Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11817 times:

Actually I flew them FRA-ICN-SYD and backwards AKL-ICN-FRA in November/December and it was a great experience.

ICN is a great airport, cabin crew is professionaly friendly, the 744 on the Europe leg is retroffited with a nice IFE (while the 744 ICN-Oceania is a "seat only" product).

Nevertheless, its only convinient for leisure travelling. On the way from Europe you have 6 hours layover in ICN, on the way back you have a night in Seoul, which gets paid by KE in a really nice hotel (Hyatt Regency ICN airport), but adds a certain amount on travelling time not ideal for business travelling.

However, pricing was great at 1000 EUR in eco compared to 1400 upwards for EK, QF and the likes.

So, if you have no time restriction, I can only recommend KE for the route down under.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3181 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11752 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
ICN isnt really a direct routing for the Kangaroo route. Even HKG is a bit more circuitous than SIN and BKK

Looking at the great circle distance, LHR-ICN-SYD is only 95nm longer than LHR-HKG-SYD and 10nm longer than LHR-SIN-SYD. Via ICN is 189nm shorter than the popular LHR-DXB-SYD. So distance-wise, it competes very well.

With better timed connections, it could be a real killer on the route. How about bilateral traffic rights between Korea and Australia, New Zealand and European countries?


User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11729 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
ICN isnt really a direct routing for the Kangaroo route. Even HKG is a bit more circuitous than SIN and BKK

For LHR-SYD:

LHR-ICN-SYD = 5520 + 5164 = 10681 mi
LHR-SIN-SYD = 6765 + 3907 = 10672 mi
LHR-BKK-SYD = 5958 + 4662 = 10620 mi
LHR-HKG-SYD = 5994 + 4581 = 10575 mi

So that's all within 106 mi, with HKG being the shortest.

And for LHR-MEL:

LHR-ICN-MEL = 5520 + 5302 = 10821 mi
LHR-SIN-MEL = 6765 + 3743 = 10508 mi
LHR-BKK-MEL = 5958 + 4546 = 10504 mi
LHR-HKG-MEL = 5994 + 4590 = 10585 mi

So for MEL its indeed 300 mi longer from ICN, instead of BKK or SIN.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11700 times:

When I flew LHR-ICN back in November 2007, about 1/5 of the flight was made up of Australians returning home. The rest were Koreans.

Yields and loads ICN-LHR-ICN are both good (flights from LHR to ICN are comparatively speaking very expensive), so I suspect that KE use the "kangaroo-route" just to top-up flights that would otherwise be wide-open rather than being a full blown player. In other words, it is to supplement existing routes rather than existing purely for connections like Emirates.


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8577 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11451 times:



Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
It is definatelt a surprise considering that KE was known for its cheaper fares at one stage.

Unfortunately KE were also known for far worse things, not too long ago, like "landing" short of runways. They have one of the worst safety records amongst major Asian carriers. They've improved substantially but people's memories don't go away that fast.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
ICN isnt really a direct routing for the Kangaroo route. Even HKG is a bit more circuitous than SIN and BKK

Not only is that not entirely correct but on such a long itinerary like Australia-Europe, a couple hundred miles don't make any difference.


User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3051 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11360 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
Unfortunately KE were also known for far worse things, not too long ago, like "landing" short of runways. They have one of the worst safety records amongst major Asian carriers. They've improved substantially but people's memories don't go away that fast.

Although it is true that KE's safety record is far from spotless, I cannot see how their past safety record from a decade ago has any relevance as a factor in the choice to fly with the airline today. People's memories don't fade away that fast, but that does not necessarily mean such memories can be rationally linked to KE's current safety standards.

By choosing to avoid Korean Air merely due to its poor safety record from over 10 years ago, without taking into consideration the fact that they have made a drastic turnaround in terms of its safety standards that addressed issues such as CRM and flight crew training, would be an uninformed decision. The fact that Korean Air has introduced over 30 new destinations and more aircraft within that time frame, and the fact that Korean Air hasn't had any serious incidents during that period is consistent with the fact that they have reformed themselves as a safe airline. I am not inclined to believe that it is a mere coincidence.

I respect the idea that people entirely have the right to choose whatever airline for whatever reason, but I do want to point out that it is not very fair to disregard the significant endeavors and strides the airline and its employees have made in a relatively short amount of time. It is also not fair, nor is it rational to view them in the same light as people did in the late 90's. I also understand that, for some people, it's hard to come to terms with the idea that they have drastically changed for the better, and indeed, it is certainly remarkable, and I am proud of them. I am confident that KE will be able to safely take me wherever I want to go.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11342 times:

They carry probably 10-20 passengers on the kangaroo route per day each way, but I'm sure they revenue manage most of it off their flights because unless you are BA or QF, it's crap traffic that they probably don't want.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineManu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 406 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11281 times:



Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 15):
I cannot see how their past safety record from a decade ago has any relevance as a factor in the choice to fly with the airline today

The book Outliers gives some history on this. I've read excellent rebuttals on Gladwell's theories, but interesting that maybe the popularity of the Outliers book has made it more expensive to fly them now? I wonder...

For those who don't know Outliers, it links Korean hierarchal culture with poor Crew Resource Management. After a few incidents, Korean Air revamped their CRM and company culture to rid itself of their communication problems.


User currently offlineAirNz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10627 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
They carry probably 10-20 passengers on the kangaroo route per day each way

Based on what statistics?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
but I'm sure they revenue manage most of it off their flights because unless you are BA or QF, it's crap traffic that they probably don't want.

Can you define what you mean by "crap traffic"? Mind you, I can't quite see how you put BA in that context the same sentence!


User currently offlineSelwoode From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10020 times:

I know the freqeuncies X LON suck but arent we all forgetting about Asiana - I specifically booked my wife on LHR-ICN-SYD because they were not only price competitive but also 5X skytrax and the enforced 'break' on the way home. On the incident issue - airlines are a little like any other business there are good and bad times - I think TK come to mind......

On my wifes recommendation We will probably use Asiana again...... everybody gets fixated on QF/BA/EK/SQ and bla bla.. as a final note both legs were full of Aussies heading each way - so I think they (KE and Asiana) do okay.  Wink


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9869 times:

Why not a player?

1) people don't think Korean when it comes to flying to London
2) people are more familiar, maybe more comfortable with Singapore, Hong Kong or Bangkok as a stopping point, whether it be the fuel stop or an actual stop of a day or two.
3) long memories for issues KE have had in the past?
4) the flight is long, if there is a gap between flights one way it just makes the whole ordeal that much longer and less desirable, a few hours in LAX/SFO for the DEN-SYD runs is bad enough.
5) is there a plane change in Korea? just adds hassle.
6) it just isnt advertised enough? if you dont know the option exists in the first place....
7) FF membership (KE is with Skyteam, dont think they are linked to QF or DJ)
8) people are worried about the menu options

There can be many reasons (justified or not) why people wont fly one airline or another, and by human nature we know we can all be awfully picky on the wierdest things.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 15):
I respect the idea that people entirely have the right to choose whatever airline for whatever reason, but I do want to point out that it is not very fair to disregard the significant endeavors and strides the airline and its employees have made in a relatively short amount of time. It is also not fair, nor is it rational to view them in the same light as people did in the late 90's.

Fair statement, but keep in mind, as KE is not really a major player into Australia the likely hood of all these improvements being reported to the general public isn't all that high. Also, unless maybe you are looking at a trade publication the mainstream media aren't going to see advertising dollars or ratings etc when it comes to doing a story on how good KE has become. If the only time they get reported on is when something bad happens it doesn't make it easier for them to change the perception.

Quoting 413x3 (Reply 19):
so going by your logic, you don't fly any American carriers either, right?

Rather out of place statement, when flying within the USA your choice is pretty much limited to (by regulations) the American airlines so pick your poison even though they are all pretty good (but none necessarily exceptional) and I don't have a concern flying on any of the major US airlines (I live in Denver), when flying from Australia to England there are many international airline options that have much more superior long term safety records which the consumer can factor into their decision on which airline they want to fly.


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2729 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9569 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
ICN isnt really a direct routing for the Kangaroo route. Even HKG is a bit more circuitous than SIN and BKK

False: HKG is shortest and ICN is roughly the same as SIN; One of the reasons there are so many possible Asian routes to Oz

LHR-HKG-SYD 17019 km

LHR-ICN-SYD 17194 km

LHR-SIN-SYD 17176 km



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineAg92 From India, joined Jul 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 9277 times:

I feel the major reason is that people dont think Geographically that Korea/Japan could be used as a connection point on the Kangaroo route. Just a little checking, Jbernie did provide some good suggestions but a few of them didnt make sense

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 24):
5) is there a plane change in Korea? just adds hassle.

All airlines except maybe BA/QF will require this, plane change / gate change. SQ, TG, MH, CX don't officially have a direct route, there are two seperate flights and they can equally have two different planes involved

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 24):
4) the flight is long, if there is a gap between flights one way it just makes the whole ordeal that much longer and less desirable, a few hours in LAX/SFO for the DEN-SYD runs is bad enough.

I think the flight from say SYD to HKG would also be long as well as HKG to LHR, or even SIN but geographically I would suppose HKG could take upto 10 hours with ease for SYD and then a further 11-12 hourss to LHR


User currently offlinePuercaeli From South Korea, joined Sep 2008, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 9225 times:

Whilst it is true that there has been many accidents with Korean Air,
Many of them were linked with cold war(at least those happened before 90s).
And it is most likely these 'large inevitable accidents' formed the general public
image rather than recent(i.e. 90s) accidents.

People's memory fade away but when it is a major incident like missile blowing off the aircraft, it is often remembers with extra detail for extra duration. It is also sad fact that people tends to forget less forget incidents... in 79 B707 crash landed in Russian Lake(I won't even try to spell...) after being shot by Soviet fighter jets. Most people on board survived so if you think Hudson river accident is miracle think again...

Quoting Linglesou (Reply 27):

Whilst it is understandable to refuse cause you never heard of them(especially if you are old), it makes more sense to 'do some research' rather than flat out refuse.

As for the question why KE does not bother with Kangaroo, it is simple. Australia route is small proportion of KE's revenue(as reflected by non-IFE plane being used frequently on this route). There is a significant variation in the yield as this route heavyly relies on the students and also there are not many business/first class demand as less affluent of Korean population tends to come to Australia.

In fact, it is American market that Korean is eager to grab hold of. And all the schedules are in fact, aligned to faclitate the connection to American destinations. Even their major advertisements is on US at the moment(not to mention they are silentlly increasing the number destinations to US).

So for Korean Air, there is no need to compete in a already well established market or need to do a massive advert to change the public opinion. KE can survived without Australian market(at the moment). But this may change in the future.

However, I must say Korean has been traditionally slack on the advertisement quality and prevalence. I wish they can notch up a bit in terms of advert....


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8993 times:



Quoting Ag92 (Reply 28):
Quoting Jbernie (Reply 24):
4) the flight is long, if there is a gap between flights one way it just makes the whole ordeal that much longer and less desirable, a few hours in LAX/SFO for the DEN-SYD runs is bad enough.

I think the flight from say SYD to HKG would also be long as well as HKG to LHR, or even SIN but geographically I would suppose HKG could take upto 10 hours with ease for SYD and then a further 11-12 hourss to LHR

There were some previous comments indicating that there stop in ICN was extended (6 hrs or more) which on such a long flight to begin with makes for what might be a less then pleasant experience depending on how you travel. The actual flying time depending on which city you go through will be reasonably close, but extended lay overs aren't high on my list of desired things  Smile.


25 Airbazar : For whatever reason, US carriers don't have nearly as bad an image but that could be because they are also way bigger than KE so playing the probabil
26 AFGMEL : They need to advertise more and perhaps tidy connections. We flew them last year MEL-ICN-LHR then CDG-ICN.MEL. Service was excellent. Unfortunately we
27 Post contains links Huaiwei : Now if we are to look at distances from each of the four major Australian cities in addition to SYD and MEL, we have: LHR-BNE LHR-SIN-BNE = 10581 mi
28 Ikramerica : I sent my crew on KE through ICN to Beijing, and they had nothing but great things to say about KE and ICN. And we are low budget, so it was all Y, n
29 Pewpew320 : The connections for Australia flights are indeed awful, when i flew them LHR - AKL there was only a stopover in ICN for around 2 hours.
30 Linglesou : Am I missing something? This seems like a nice connection time!
31 Pewpew320 : I also forgot to put however in, it should have read. "The connections for Australia flights are indeed awful, however when i flew them LHR - AKL ther
32 Ex_SQer : Throughout the 70s and much of the 80s, KE could not overfly the former USSR en route to Europe. Same applies to JL - both carriers routed most Europe
33 Linglesou : Ah right! Yes...slightly confused for a minute there...
34 AirKorea : Austrailia-ICN-Europe seems very much lucrative business for KE. They know ICN is located strategic place in that passingers traveling Eurpoe - Oceani
35 Cragley : I believe KE still has NETT fares, not published at this stage. They are always one of the cheapest carriers from Australia to Europe. Check with a tr
36 Vincewy : Any chance KE would introduce red eye out of SYD, MEL, and BNE? Especially for SYD, most can't due to curfew, but Japan/Korea will work out perfectly,
37 Ikramerica : It's shorter to LHR through ICN, and with both segments at 4600nm, a more fuel efficient and cargo efficient proposition on a KE 77W v. an EK 77W or a
38 Vincewy : Actually, all KE has to do is shifting the Australian flights from the current (early evening departure - coming back next evening pattern) to late n
39 DavidByrne : KE are still flying to AKL as of today. However, I think their biggest problem will be the huge slide in Koreans visitng NZ in the last few years, ra
40 Ash185 : KE must be doing pretty good as they went back to the 744 from 772, im not sure if thats still the case now but they were a couple months ago, maybe
41 Pewpew320 : On the flight i took last year in KE from ICN to AKL the aircraft was very full, and this was in september, i was actually surprised by the amount of
42 NZ107 : I think this was regarding OZ, who discontinued AKL.. What are the time differences? Any advantage due to prevailing winds by going via a certain poi
43 AirNZ : Sorry, but I'm confused here.......what is shorter to LHR through ICN? Nowhere that I know of and, indeed, how come if you clearly state that "ICN is
44 B747-4U3 : I think he means that although the overall journey may be longer via ICN, there is a more even split between the sector lengths and thus there should
45 MaverickM11 : The traffic between the UK and Australia has so much competition by non-Australian/UK carriers that the fares are fairly low. The only carriers that
46 Linglesou : Why would such websites/agencies prices not be affected by demand?
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