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B6-F9 Merger Idea?  
User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 570 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

I've been pondering for a while about a B6 and F9 merge. I feel that if executed properly, which i think Meinke and Barger won't have a problem doing, would it make sense in the long term? F9 needs east coast presence and B6 needs a larger west coast presence. I think the only drawback would be the 2 different engine types. I think in the short term, it would give F9 the bk exit financing they need and give B6 a bigger network to better compete against WN and give it a market dominance of VX. I flew VX a few weeks ago SFO-LAS and was not happy at with the service. Red did not work and the flight attendants were just plain rude. As much as I like first class travel, I have enjoyed what F9 and B6 have to offer. Any thoughts?


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3193965/

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3174309/

Among many others. I realize you're new here, but there have been lots of threads on this subject. Long story short, there is a snowballs chance in heck of that happening.



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6049 times:



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
Long story short, there is a snowballs chance in heck of that happening.

I personally would put my money on an FL-F9 merger over an F9-B6 merger. A merger between AirTran and Frontier would make more sense than Frontier and JetBlue (or even Virgin America [just thinking outside of the box]). JetBlue already has somewhat of a West Coast presence, so adding Frontier into the mix really doesn't contribute much except for some destinations in the Midwest, which is where B6 is practically non-existent, and in many cases are served by Lynx or by the codeshare with Great Lakes. Over the years, AirTran and Frontier have had some form of a relationship. Originally, it was mainly handling agreements at a few airports (For example, at ATL, FL handled F9's flights and at BMI, F9 handled Fl's flights.). The current frequent flier agreement has long been rumored to eventually lead to a codeshare agreement. That would give both airlines' passengers access to a lot of cities.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25434 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6011 times:
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Quoting Sancho99504 (Thread starter):
Any thoughts?

Just this: no, please no.

This one is an old a.net chestnut, and I guess I don't understand the fascination with it.

One of the two airlines would disappear, presumably the smaller one, but given all that Frontier's CEO has achieved in the last twelve months, I'm looking forward to seeing what future he's planning for Frontier as a standalone.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
I personally would put my money on an FL-F9 merger over an F9-B6 merger.

Code share? Sure (well, perhaps). Merger? Hope not.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6008 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
or even Virgin America [just thinking outside of the box

I know that F9 and VX have different business models and are aiming for different markets, but speaking as someone who has had good experiences on both airlines and appreciates what they offer, I think it would interesting to see what the two airlines could do together, building on their various strengths. And unlike B6, VX at least has the engine commonality with F9, I believe.

I do wonder why B6-F9 is such a commonly suggested idea, though.


User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 575 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5991 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
This one is an old a.net chestnut, and I guess I don't understand the fascination with it.

They both fly Airbus and have LiveTV so it must be a good idea.  Wink

At least we have the first mention of F9's FY2010.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5961 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):

Code share? Sure (well, perhaps). Merger? Hope not.

If you think an F9-B6 merger is an old chestnut, an FL-F9 merger predates B6 starting up. When I worked for FL about 10 years back, that was the rumor that was going around back then.

When Vanguard managed to get Jeff Potter to briefly leave F9 to run NJ, the rumors were flying back then that this was in preparations for a merger.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5932 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
(For example, at ATL, FL handled F9's flights and at BMI, F9 handled Fl's flights.)

That isn't a valid argument that a merger is a good idea. For that matter, it's been years since Frontier has flown to BMI, but FL has a nice little operation there.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25434 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5888 times:
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Quoting Srbmod (Reply 6):
If you think an F9-B6 merger is an old chestnut, an FL-F9 merger predates B6 starting up.

But it is the Frontier/JetBlue merger concept that has continuing currency, and not just on a.net.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 6):
When Vanguard managed to get Jeff Potter to briefly leave F9 to run NJ, the rumors were flying back then that this was in preparations for a merger.

At that point, Frontier's CEO had already formally turned down a merger with Vanguard, just a few months previously.

Vanguard had been a purely "heartland" operation, mostly (but not entirely) unprofitable. Vanguard's backer, the banker William Hambrecht, decided that a merger with Frontier was the way to survival and bought a large holding of Frontier shares.

When Sam Addoms turned him down, Hambrecht sold the shares and decided that Vanguard should become like Frontier (national, serving both coasts) and enticed Jeff Potter to be the new CEO.

Sure, there were rumors among the Vanguard troops that Potter was a stalking horse - but Sam Addoms had made it crystal clear that wasn't going to happen.

As was shown when, after only 11 months at Vanguard, Potter returned to Frontier as Sam Addoms chosen successor.

mariner

[Edited 2009-04-10 13:07:51]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5854 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
That isn't a valid argument that a merger is a good idea. For that matter, it's been years since Frontier has flown to BMI, but FL has a nice little operation there.

I was giving an example of their past relationships. On the flip side, FL hasn't handled F9 @ ATL in nearly nine years.


User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

I should re-iterate, F9 and B6 have almost identical business models. FL would make a better fit with AS in my opinion than with F9. I do believe that Meinke would remain as CEO of a combined company as Barger would move back to CFO as he was under Neilman. I know this has been talked about a couple of times before, however with hubs at DEN, JFK, and MCO, they would be in a far better position to give WN a run for their money. Also, with that setup, they would easily be able to take market share away from UA at DEN and DL at JFK, albeit not very much international market share. However, with LH's stake in B6, I feel that they could codeshare on flights from DEN and JFK to Europe thru FRA even if they did move them on UA metal. From a financial and a marketing standpoint, it would look really good on paper, but it would ultimately depend on everyone in management working together.


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25434 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5757 times:
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Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 10):
From a financial and a marketing standpoint, it would look really good on paper, but it would ultimately depend on everyone in management working together.

And this Frontier shareholder would vote against it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5710 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
which is where B6 is practically non-existent

Hopefullywhen the economy rebounds they can expand a little more & maybe set up a midwestern hub



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5607 times:



Quoting Ytib (Reply 5):



Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
And this Frontier shareholder would vote against it.

Speaking of which, what happened to Frontier shareholders when they went into bankruptcy? Do you still have your shares, and are they worth anything? If you look up the stock symbol, the price is listed at $0.00. When F9 finally exits bankruptcy, will FRNT get re-offered or re-listed or what? Will your shares have value again, or what?


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5563 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Thread starter):
I've been pondering for a while about a B6 and F9 merge

so has everyone else on this site


User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5541 times:

I would imagine coming out of bk, all shareholders would get new shares in the company. As far as stockholders, not sure on that, but all old shares in the company are obsolete. When I was with United, we were issued new shares in the company when we exited bk.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 14):



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 14):

so has everyone else on this site

I know a lot of people have thought about it, however, if you look at it on paper, there are a few airlines out there that could merge that would make stronger, more competitive companies that would be able to weather the current economic slowdown and future slowdowns. The DL/NW merger has shown us that with cooperation on both sides and strong planning, has so far shown us that 2 companies can merge and be successful. Hopefully the success is continued and DL doesnt do to NW what AA did to TW and a host of others. On a side note, what would an NK/G4 merger look like? Would it be feasable?



kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5451 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):

Agreed. It would benefit both parties. F9 would have access to the south and NE area FL serves and FL would have more service out west.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25434 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5364 times:
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Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 13):
Speaking of which, what happened to Frontier shareholders when they went into bankruptcy?

Like many Chapter 11 companies, Frontier shares are on the pink sheets (penny stocks) and are listed as FRNTQ.PK, trading at around 24 cents.

As usual, there are a bunch of people who are "hopeful" that the shares wont be cancelled on emergence, but I have assumed, from Day 1 of the filing, that they dead in the water.

I can't see many real alternatives to a whole new share structure. As part of this, I assume that republic will have a slab of shares in the new company, in part settlement of their suit.

Now, it is possible that SM will find a way not to cancel the shares but I'm not holding my breath. I'll also buy shares in the new company.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineN623JB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5289 times:

I think jetBlue may go to Detroit,MI..that is a possibility.


Bring JetBlue To Mexico City! (TLC and/or MEX would be great)
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7375 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5188 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
Just this: no, please no.

This one is an old a.net chestnut, and I guess I don't understand the fascination with it.

One of the two airlines would disappear, presumably the smaller one, but given all that Frontier's CEO has achieved in the last twelve months, I'm looking forward to seeing what future he's planning for Frontier as a standalone.

At this point the only carriers that would merge with F9 are UA and WN. I would bet on UA over WN. NOBODY wants to merge their way into being the third hub carrier in DEN.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25434 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5041 times:
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Quoting Enilria (Reply 19):
At this point the only carriers that would merge with F9 are UA and WN. I would bet on UA over WN. NOBODY wants to merge their way into being the third hub carrier in DEN.

No need to convince me - I agree. It's what I've been saying for a year or two.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

With CO joining Star in late October or thereabouts, B6 will no longer be needed by LH and will open the door for B6 to be a nice takeover target by someone - my guess is Delta! This would give them complete control of JFK and domestic feed for their huge international ops plus with the NWA airbus addition to the fleet - makes alot of sense! Just a thought!!!!!! Could be fun in 2010!!

User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

A DL takeover wouldn't be a bad idea, however would DOJ and DOT approve? Even though CO is joining star in Q4, LH doesn't have a stake in CO, which would lead me to believe LH would take more importance in B6 as they wouldn't want to lose their investment.


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4604 times:

The chances are, F9 will be emerging from bankruptcy as a stand alone carrier. I have a real positive feeling that WILL happen.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineF9fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 698 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4237 times:

Arguments for merger
* compatible fleets
* similar business models
* little overlap in route structure

Arguments against merger
* little desire on part of management from either airline
* both airlines have relatively high brand loyalty, and someone would lose that when the name changed
* incompatible FF program
* tough competition at DEN

On that last point, DEN now has three major carriers competing for the relatively limited O&D market. I don't know of any airports with three major carriers, and the airports that I know of in the U.S. (ATL has DL and FL, ORD has AA and UA, LAS and PHX both have WN and US) Granted, DEN was designed with three hub airlines in mind (never-mind that the old Frontier went out of business three years before ground was broken), but there have been very few airports that maintained three major airline presences. To be honest, I am surprised how well F9 is doing in lieu of the strong competition from WN.


25 TSS : My personal guess is because "JetBlue Airways" plus "Frontier Airlines" could result in "BlueFrontier Airways"... which is a pretty cool name for an
26 2707200X : It can't be to much of a bad idea, Denver would make a good third hub and B6 can use the A319 in many of its routes.
27 AirframeAS : Whats also really ironic is that our inflight magazine is the Wild Blue Yonder.
28 NZA320 : Who said that if B6 and F9 merged that they would have to get rid of one of the brands. One option would be that they merge into one company but keep
29 Mariner : I cannot think of any merger between two US airlines where the names and brands of both airlines have been retained. mariner
30 NZA320 : Then they can be the first. In terms of an airline example it would be like AF and KL merging but keeping their separate brands. My post was mainly i
31 Mariner : Why - since neither have indicated they want to be? Some of the synergy you present are may be valid, but could be said, as easily, of Frontier mergi
32 NZA320 : I agree that the merger won't happen and my post wasn't for or against the merger. I was just offering an alternative opinion on what is generally pe
33 Sancho99504 : The idea of B6 and F9 merging would be to give them a more competitive advantage against WN. With WN growing at DEN and now moving into BOS either Q3
34 Cadet57 : Isnt B6 non union ad F9 union? or vice versa?
35 Thestooges : I know of course that this would never, ever happen, but anyway . . . imagine if B6, FL, F9 and NK all merged !!! DEN would be a great western hub for
36 Ikramerica : F9 and FL would be better. Despite no aircraft commonality, they would be stronger as a team.
37 Post contains links Mariner : That's already happened. United has seen loss in market share at DEN. It was happening before Southwest came along. http://www.twincities.com/busines
38 Sancho99504 : Why would loyalty dissipate? It would remain DEN's hometown airline. Why do most say F9 and FL would be a better match? The FFP's? I suppose I'm just
39 Mariner : Because it might no longer be the perceived hometown airline. I am sure they will continue to evolve, but that might as easily affect United. Who kil
40 DLHFLYER : I don't think Jetblue wants all the baggage that Frontier has to deal with. They have a heck of fight going on with United and Southwest. Not to say
41 Sancho99504 : Glenn Tilton killed Ted, F9 was holding the coffin. I don't see how you can have a go at an LCC within an ultra high cost airline. Trying to fight F9
42 Mariner : Ted did not (finally) die until sometime after Southwest came to DEN. At first, United believed that Ted could compete, as with DEN-MDW. There is sti
43 AirframeAS : You can actually thank WN for that one, not F9.
44 Sancho99504 : The writing was on the wall for Ted even before it was introduced. If anything, WN put the nails into the coffin. Also, even though F9 is virtually no
45 Mariner : Yes. Which I expect will happen. I'm not sure how that relates to this. I disagree and I still wouldn't vote for a merger. Frontier is presently prof
46 United1 : It should be pointed out that even though UA has lost market share at DEN UAs revenue share at DEN is increasing (ie they are trading capacity for yi
47 Mariner : You have the advantage over me - I haven't seen any publicly released figures on this, but then I haven't read everything published about United. I s
48 Enilria : Not everybody on the thread is as knowledgeable as you are! If April is down as much as March was, I think the string of operating profits will have
49 Mariner : Now it's your turn to have the advantage on me - I haven't seen the March financials. More advantage Enilria - I haven't seen a breakdown of the DOT
50 AirframeAS : Lynx has been doing very well for us. I don't know what you are looking at....
51 Enilria : In this post, I'm speaking directly to Mariner. There was no press release because they were poor. Mainline PRASM was down 16.3% and haul was down 9.
52 AirframeAS : The last I checked....isn't this a public forum? If that is the case, then where are you obtaining this info, Mr. Enilria?? Sources, please. Where di
53 KingCavalier : How can you say this? Frontier didn't report February's financials till late March. We can only assume that the financials for March will be reported
54 Post contains links and images Mariner : There was a press release for March traffic. I've read it. Here it is: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRe...story/04-06-2009/0005001861&EDATE= I ha
55 KingCavalier : You aren't the only one, it doesn't. Now, back to the topic of the thread - No, F9 should not merge with another airline. The LCC's should expand FF
56 AirframeAS : I totally support the much stronger codesharing with FL. That would be cool to have!
57 ThirteenRight : That's rediculous. Of all the LCCs, F9 and B6 are the most similar. NK has a much different product and culture than FL and F9 do. So what? People ch
58 Mariner : The statement was made that the merger was desirable - in part - because of similar fleets. If that is the basis, Spirit and Virgin America have simi
59 Sancho99504 : I was pointing out that B6 and F9 share fleet commonality, but they also share an almost identical product. Both have fantastic employees that are for
60 AirframeAS : Who would then head the new company? Or are you saying to retain all 3 CEO's?
61 Sancho99504 : I would take all 3 as CEO. They're very smart individuals who are good at working with people and compromising to make the best of what they have. I b
62 JetBlueAUS : I was browsing the wikipedia page for Frontier and found this in the route structure section of the webpage: I don't believe everything wikipedia has
63 Post contains links Enilria : Technically they did issue a press release because they are required to, but they did not post it to all the usual outlets because it was not a posit
64 Mariner : It was released through PR Newswire, the usual outlet. I found it immediately, in all the usual places, without doing any special search. Who didn't
65 Mariner : You're right not to believe Wikipedia. It's open access, anyone can put in what they want. I just checked the page on Frontier and the line you saw:
66 Jgrant : From a customer perspective, a B6-F9 merger does nothing for me. There are no decent connections or destinations offered from Denver on B6 that fill i
67 Post contains links Mariner : With regard to the overall situation at DEN - something which directly affects Frontier's future: I've read something now. There's a good and very int
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