Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3702 posts, RR: 34 Posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21076 times:
Retrojet liveries are presently "the 'in' thing" with at least five of Europe's legacy airlines and I seem to remember seeing a drawing of a British Airways A320(?) in a retro livery resembling that of BEA c. ~1970. Since I have not been able to locate a photo of a 1:1 British Airways retrojet...
Does British Airways have, or plan to have, an entry in the retrojet category? ...or was the drawing I saw nothing more than a "flight of fancy?"
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16221 posts, RR: 57 Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 20499 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Thread starter): I seem to remember seeing a drawing of a British Airways A320(?) in a retro livery resembling that of BEA c. ~1970. Since I have not been able to locate a photo of a 1:1 British Airways retrojet...
These will have to do unless BA does get into the retrojet fold:
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 5860 posts, RR: 15 Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 20154 times:
Here is a photo taken just over ten years ago of the first BOAC 747. It wore this sort-of BOAC livery on the left side only after it made its final revenue flight:
Mysterzip From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 154 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19430 times:
I don't think you'll see any sort of logo jet anytime soon (unless it's paid for by someone). Willie and his buddies are into the whole "brand" thing, thinking it's the only thing that will make them money.
Justlump From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 152 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18791 times:
Call me crazy, but I loved the "World Tails." Granted, those colours did not look very 'British', but were awesome none the less.
Viscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17802 times:
A Retro-BOAC 744 would just look like a BOAC 741. IMHO retro liveries look better and attract more attention (the whole point of the thing) on types they did not have at the time. So a "BOAC" 767/777 (Either the 741 style, or VC-10/707 style), and "BEA" A319/320 (either the "Red Square" or "Union Flag" style), would look best.
Of course, in an ideal world, they would follow US Airways lead and also utilise the liveries of their "Legacy" companies that were merged and absorbed over the years to form BA. For instance BKS/Northeast, Cambrian, BCal, BUA, Airwork, Hunting-Clan, Air Charter, Transair, BSAA etc. Imagine THAT line-up at T5!!
GDB From United Kingdom, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 12357 posts, RR: 83 Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17354 times:
Reply 10, more like the cost of such a thing has to be justified in these difficult times.
If doing such a retrojet would cost more than a normal scheduled re-paint, staff who are fearing for the future would rightly be concerned.
BA does not exist to make enthusiasts happy.
The 747-100 pictured back in 1999, to commemorate the retirement of BA's oldest 747, generated some adverse comment from some staff.
Until it was revealed that the Engineering staff involved had done it with surplus materials in their own time, something that those who complained would never think of doing presumably.
Any other retrojet now would have to be similar.
Also, BA has upgraded it's paint bay hangar at the LHR base recently, at the moment staff are getting used to using the extensive new equipment there, to worry about doing a non standard paint job.
AlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17124 times:
This has been discussed before, and yes, most of us are eagerly waiting for BA to come up with some kind of a Retro theme... I guess OneWorld liveries are keeping the painters busy enough for now, but how about this:
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 967 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16604 times:
I don't think we'll see a retrojet any time soon.
Remember, British Shareways is run by beancounters. Painting aircraft in special schemes costs money and if the expenditure isn't going to be at least matched by an increase in revenue it is probably unlikely to happen - especially given the current climate.
Unfortunately, true of many airlines worldwide now... (both KLM/AF and LH are both public companies, yet they still did their Retro liveries).
A proud and long history is something that legacy carriers have against new entrant and low costs, so airlines should use this to their advantage, I always loved the BA black and white retro photos in the Club World cabins, that's clever marketing!
Also, from what I gather the repainting of aircraft occurs every 5-7 years or so, and painting it differently to another model may not cost much more than a regular repaint? Can someone enlighten us on the approximate cost of a repaint?
Also, the delight of all Airliners.netters surely would be worth the extra pennies?
LongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 3300 posts, RR: 26 Reply 26, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15611 times:
Quoting Andz (Reply 18): I prefer this BEA livery...
I agree.
I still think the BEA "SpeedJack" livery and the final BOAC livery with the royal blue/gold speedbird to be among the finest ever placed on an airliner.
Two more swords and I am queen of the Monkey People!
Type-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 3661 posts, RR: 23 Reply 27, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14755 times:
I still think the classic blue and gold BOAC livery was one of the classiest liveries every devised. It makes anything you put it on look great. And isn't Britain all about class anyway?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
Quoting GDB (Reply 14): Until it was revealed that the Engineering staff involved had done it with surplus materials in their own time
Oh really?! Now that's some commitment...this isn't the normal practice with retrojets though is it?
Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 13): f course, in an ideal world, they would follow US Airways lead and also utilise the liveries of their "Legacy" companies that were merged and absorbed over the years to form BA. For instance BKS/Northeast, Cambrian, BCal, BUA, Airwork, Hunting-Clan, Air Charter, Transair, BSAA etc.
Oh wow, that would be something! Yeah, no...not going to happen anytime soon. As long as we're on the subject, how 'bout QF giving us a retro livery - V-jet on an A380 perhaps?
Bramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 29, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13691 times:
Quoting GDB (Reply 14): If doing such a retrojet would cost more than a normal scheduled re-paint,
Does anyone know what the cost difference from standard to retro livery would be?
Obviously the design would cost money. Would a more colourful than normal livery cost more? Am not just thinking of BA. Am sure the AF retro wasn't much more than he normal livery. Am very interested in the possibility (very remote due high beancounter levels in head office!) of Aer Lingus having one of their new A320s in retro for the 75th anniversary in 2011.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 12357 posts, RR: 83 Reply 30, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13054 times:
So presumably, 'British Shareways' should be re-nationalised or something?
Incredible, only the in the UK.
BA are part of an industry that is world class, from airline operations to engines and major components.
Certainly not perfect, but who is, outside of Daily Mail-land.
Excuse us for being generally successful, certainly compared to many other full service international carriers, better if we were a British version of Alitalia?
If non UK members are baffled by all this sort of stuff................your right to be.
Back to the 'Retrojet', remember too that BA was once two airlines, so really for any BEA retrojet you really have to do a BOAC.
Nice as the images above are, what's the point?
LH did a very good one a few years back to celebrate 50 years in their current form, I can see how a Retrojet would tie in there.
So, maybe in 2014 when BA has been going in it's current form, for 40 years, perhaps that would be the time?
Assuming and hoping of course, that the economic crisis is a distant memory by then, (or it ended and some other major event knocked the airline industry afterward, not impossible given how it's been so far this decade).
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3702 posts, RR: 34 Reply 31, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13046 times:
In a word (or actually a smilie)... ...same for the A319 and 320 illustrated in Reply 4
Based what we have seen in the way of 1:1 retrojets from IB, KL, LH, OS and SK, the illustrations in Replies 4 and 15 are what we would (hopefully will) likely see if and when British Airways chooses to get on the proverbial retrojet bandwagon.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 5860 posts, RR: 15 Reply 33, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12443 times:
Quoting GDB (Reply 30): So, maybe in 2014 when BA has been going in it's current form, for 40 years, perhaps that would be the time?
We could wait another five years.
Following the end of World War I three British airlines, Daimler Airways, Hadley Page Transport and Instone Air Lines were all formed in 1919. These three airlines together with British Marine Air Navigation founded in 1923 were merged in 1924 to form Imperial Airways.
In 1938 Imperial Airways together with the original British Airways were merged to form state owned BOAC.
So 2019 would mark the effective BA centenial. However I suspect that retro-jets in the colours (colours?) of these founding airlines would not only be disappointing but also fairly meaningless and a waste of money.
Of course retro-jets in either or both of one or more of the BEA and BOAC liveries would be more meaningful to many as these airlines still existed in 1973 and their liveries did not disappear entirely until the late 1979s or very early 80s. But again to the non-enthusiast these liveries would still be fairly meaningless and would not directly promote BA to the general public or its business flyers.
So realistically any retro livery would have to be the original British Airways livery that first appeared in September 1973, the same livery with the larger 'British' titles originating in 1980 or the Landor livery introduced in the run up to privatisation in February 1987.
Personally I would go for a Landor retro-livery to be launched to mark the 25th anniversary of BA's privatisation in early 2012. But since this livery was in use right into the 1990s there are no basic aircraft types that will be in service with BA at that date that have not previously worn it.
Of course there will be the 773 but the Landor livery was worn by the 772. And although it has never been painted on the 318, 319 or 321 it was carried for many years on the 320. So for it to truly be a retro livery BA would have to wait for either the 787 or the 380.
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 967 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12190 times:
Quoting AlanUK (Reply 22): I always loved the BA black and white retro photos in the Club World cabins, that's clever marketing!
Me too...those pics are very tasteful.
Quoting AlanUK (Reply 22): A proud and long history is something that legacy carriers have against new entrant and low costs, so airlines should use this to their advantage
I agree with you, a I believe BA could be doing more to promote its heritage. Perhaps, as suggested here, waiting for a major anniversary would be an auspicious time paint an aircraft in a heritage scheme. That way BA could use the special scheme as part the marketing for that anniversary which might make the special livery a more commercially attractive venture.
Quoting GDB (Reply 30): If non UK members are baffled by all this sort of stuff................your right to be.
I think a lot of UK members will be baffled by what you have just said. No where in this thread has anyone suggested that BA should shirk its responsibility to the shareholders and pursuit of profits to paint an aircraft in a special scheme. Indeed, I think most members of this forum (bar a certain two or three), think BA is following the right course by putting its core activities first (i.e. transporting people and making money by doing it.)
Eljonno From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 12008 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 33): Personally I would go for a Landor retro-livery to be launched to mark the 25th anniversary of BA's privatisation in early 2012. But since this livery was in use right into the 1990s there are no basic aircraft types that will be in service with BA at that date that have not previously worn it.
Of course there will be the 773 but the Landor livery was worn by the 772. And although it has never been painted on the 318, 319 or 321 it was carried for many years on the 320. So for it to truly be a retro livery BA would have to wait for either the 787 or the 380.
Rwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1358 posts, RR: 4 Reply 36, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11962 times:
Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 13): For instance BKS/Northeast, Cambrian, BCal, BUA, Airwork, Hunting-Clan, Air Charter, Transair, BSAA etc. Imagine THAT line-up at T5!!
Someone catch me.
Quoting PM (Reply 12): Quoting Justlump (Reply 11):
I loved the "World Tails
Me too!
Me three!
Quoting LHR380 (Reply 16): That 777, I could almost imagine an extra set of engines, making it almost 707ish.
I thought that nose-wheel forward looks rather VC-10ish.
The early bird gets the worm, BUT...the second mouse gets the cheese!
GDB From United Kingdom, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 12357 posts, RR: 83 Reply 40, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11374 times:
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 34): I think a lot of UK members will be baffled by what you have just said. No where in this thread has anyone suggested that BA should shirk its responsibility to the shareholders and pursuit of profits to paint an aircraft in a special scheme. Indeed, I think most members of this forum (bar a certain two or three), think BA is following the right course by putting its core activities first (i.e. transporting people and making money by doing it.)
Really? I was reacting to the 'Briitsh Shareways' crack, I'm not offended and as you say, it illustrates a fact, consider it a 'eye rolling' reponse.
Along with (yawn) 'London Airways' etc.
I must admit I only thought Landor looked good on one type, Concorde (best of our liveries on it IMHO). Mainly because I found the gray upper fuselages rather insipid, on the 'Rocket' of course it had to be all in white..
I was at one of a series of unveilings of it, in a modified hangar, back in late 1984.
After all the build up, what appeared after all the dry ice and lasers, was like.......is that it?
I agreed with one comment in the press that it looked like a design for a cigarette brand.
(Then we found out that Landor's previous contract prior to BA, was for a Mexican tobacco company!)
I think an anniversary one should have the original BA livery, it seemed dated by the time of Landor, but it had a certain charm I think.
In 2006, the rebuild and restoration work on Concorde G-BBDG was completed, as one who had played a very minor role in it, I was one of the invited guests.
A beautiful day, once at Brooklands I turned a corner and there she was, replendent in the original BA livery white and gleaming in the sun.
It took my breath away, (G-BBDG though it never carried fare paying pax for BA, was in the livery for most of it's operational life).
The effect for me was to take me back in time some 20+ years.
(And gratifying that the original BA livery paint scheme drawings for Concorde, which I had saved from the bin, came in useful).
An A380 in the original livery maybe, as part of an anniversary-if the ecomonic climate is good at the time?
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 22 Reply 43, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10860 times:
Someone once told me that the chances of a BA retrojet were slim, as they would need two, maybe three, different retrojets in order to keep everyone happy.
BA's senior management could be divided into four categories: former BOAC staff; former BEA staff; a sprinkling of British Caledonian staff (plus a few Dan Dares); and then the new management who were taken on after the merger and who have more respect for profits than reminiscences of the glory days. So if the last group could be persuaded that a retrojet would be appropriate, a BOAC retrojet would upset the BEA group and vice versa.
Unlike LH, AF, KLM and others, who have been trading continuously under the same name for decades, BA can only go back 34 years in its present form.
If any UK airline should have a retrojet, I think the honour should go to Monarch who have been trading under the same name and under the same ownership for over 41 years.
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 967 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10691 times:
That BCAL livery on the 380 is absolutely fantastic. It works really well with the shape of the 380 and looks very classy.
Why don't BA change their name to British Caledonian, and then paint all of their aircraft in BCAL's scheme? As much as I like the current BA livery, it can't hold a candle to the beautiful lines of the BCAL scheme.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 12357 posts, RR: 83 Reply 46, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10547 times:
BCAL, you are so right about those different sources of management and staff generally.
However, I can see why some would want it buried since it had a dark, or rather silly, side.
When I joined, 10 years after the merger between BEA and BOAC, there were still staff who would barely speak to, or do so under sufferance, those from the 'other' airline to them.
BOAC types would tell you that they were sleek, efficient, blue chip, a piece of old style Britishness that traversed the world, right down to having a clone of actor James Robinson Justice as a no nonsense Capt.
BEA? Brash, cheap, gaudy, a bit of the 'Continental tendencies rubbing off on them due to thier route network. Vulgar even.
BEA types would say that 'Better On A Camel' were stuffy, old fashioned, too often bailed out by government, like a dusty old gentleman's club complete with ruddy faced old farts, incompetent and set in their ways, hiding behind either a regimental or old school tie.
However, BEA were bright, modern, colourful, an efficient operation who gave a little piece of 'Swinging London' to the continent, including leggy, pretty, bright Stewardesses with suitably short mini skirts.
I thought these sorts of people were not right in the head. Or at best had too much spare time, at work and in their home life.
Who cared? Grow up! You still had a damn good, well paid job, with perks that back then most people could only dream of.
Indeed, it may have driven the initial 'merger that wasn't', that is, until 1979-and some of it carried on until Lord King, BA had separate 'Overseas' and 'European' Divisions, two sets of everything, even down to admin departments like personnel and pay.
ED and OD, a true merger delayed.
So there was later a reaction, from the mid/late 1980's there seemed to be a concerted effort to erase these two separate corporate identifies, already gone in practical terms, so now from memory too.
Not like that now, or for a long time, but you could see the reasoning.
And the 1987 Privatization, which loomed throughout the previous 5-6 years, certainly did make BA more cost focused.
ZuluTime From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10326 times:
The retro livery really needed is the second BOAC one, with the gold outlining on the blue cheatline towards the nose. That looks really stunning on the VC10s and Cunard Eagle 707 pictures.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 5860 posts, RR: 15 Reply 49, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10290 times:
I am sorry but realistically the chances of seeing a retro BEA or BOAC livery on any active BA aircraft is, in my opinion, zero.
Why has an airline like KL or its parent AF gone to the expense of painting an active aircraft in a retro colour scheme? I can think of but one reason, the resulting publicity for the modern airline. And do BA have any reason at all in spending any money on publicising either BEA or BOAC or both? I think not.
So the choice - if any - would be simple. It is either the original BA livery with either 'British airways' or the larger 'British' titles or the Landor livery. And since the Landor livery was in service up until just a few years ago, it is hardly retro. So it is probably almost Hobson's choice.
Yet... Those are very nice, and the BOAC one, fabulous, in my eyes.
That reminds me of how boring are the eurowhite fuselages... I mean, if it had reamined used only by one airline, it would probably still be interesting. But now, I miss the cheatlines, even more after viewing those examples (and the BCal A380 as well). Thanks, Alan.
Edit: As you said, GDB, Landor on the Concorde was at its best. For me, the nicest livery wore by Concorde.
[Edited 2009-04-15 18:26:18]
[Edited 2009-04-15 18:27:05]
"Mort aux cons!" (anonyme) "Vaste programme..." (Charles de Gaulle)
Viscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10002 times:
Quoting FI642 (Reply 51): How about an Imperial Airways Livery from the 1940's? Boeing Flying boats!
The problem with that is that up until the late 1940's/early 50s the Imperial, BOAC and BEA liveries were decidely boring. During WW2, the aircraft were camaflaged, for obvious reasons, and even in the immediate post-war era, just basic company titles, in a not very attractve font, LARGE registration letters on the rear fuselage, a Union Flag and tiny logos. VERY boring in fact. BEA were the first to make to make some kind of effort with the maroon "pin-stripe", but even that made little visual impact until the white-top version was added. BOAC's L-049 Constellations were delivered with a more attracive cheatline, but this was later removed and, again, it was not until "White-tops" were used that a more attractive livery emerged.
Quoting Andz (Reply 23): Don't forget the top view, we need to see the red wings!
G-SIXT flies out of Wycombe Air Park with the rest of the BA Flying club fleet that fly with the current Chatham livery. The logo on the nose celebrates BEA, BOAC and BSAA.
AlanUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 57, posted (3 years 1 month 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9247 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 49): And do BA have any reason at all in spending any money on publicising either BEA or BOAC or both? I think not.
I don't think the main point of a retro livery is to publicy the airline, it is to hit a "nostalgia" nerve with some passengers, and to celebrate the airline's past. Most people would remember BOAC/BEA I expect, and it would probably bring back some memories of the "good old days".
Quoting FI642 (Reply 51): How about an Imperial Airways Livery from the 1940's? Boeing Flying boats!
I would love to see that, but the Imperial Airways livery was never that compelling... Imperial Airways liveries
Quoting BCAL (Reply 43): Someone once told me that the chances of a BA retrojet were slim, as they would need two, maybe three, different retrojets in order to keep everyone happy.
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and I seem to remember seeing a drawing of a British Airways A320(?) in a retro livery resembling that of BEA c. ~1970. Since I have not been able to locate a photo of a 1:1 British Airways retrojet...
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