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Rumor: EK Talking With EY About A380s  
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1164 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14891 times:

From a very reliable source (although nothing written or documented) there is a negotiations between Emirates Airlines and Etihad Airways about 10 Airbuses type A380-800.
As the source says, Emirates doesnt want to break the agreement with Airbus, canceling or deffering the order, they would rather give the next coming 10 to Etihad against a small percentage of the deal and start receiving the remaining aircrafts after that 10 transfered to Etihad.

Now, the big question is: Is it legal if this happend, can Airbus refuse this deal and sue Emirates ?
What would happen to Etihad order of A380s.....
If this was true , this is a strong proof that Emirates does not get any government support, at any stage.

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7201 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14668 times:



Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):

Now, the big question is: Is it legal if this happend, can Airbus refuse this deal and sue Emirates ?

On what basis? There is no harm to Airbus if the contracted aircraft indeed get delivered when Airbus wants to deliver them. The harm only comes when deliveries get deferred or canceled. It is irrelevant to Airbus who takes them.
But if this is true, then it proves something that I have believed all along; EK is trying to bite off more than they can chew and they will ultimately not take all of the A380's that they have ordered. They may collapse in a heap trying, however.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10253 posts, RR: 97
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14651 times:
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Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
But if this is true, then it proves something that I have believed all along

Evidence, maybe. Proof sounds a bit, er "final"...  Smile

Rgds


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14611 times:



Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
Now, the big question is: Is it legal if this happened, can Airbus refuse this deal and sue Emirates ?

Assuming the rumor is true, I don't think Airbus will do anything to jeopardize their delivery schedules (Remember: Deliveries = $$$) by causing a stir or raising a legal issue, not to mention the bad publicity that would ensue. They'll be happy to keep the aircraft rolling off the assembly line and into the hands of anyone that will pay for the birds.

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
If this was true , this is a strong proof that Emirates does not get any government support, at any stage.

Hardly proof. Even governments want to make sure their investments are sound.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently onlineMWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 742 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14467 times:

I would say that all the means is that EK, want to reduce the rate of their delivery's a little with as small as possible penalty, now as long as EY are happy to take an earlier delivery date and EK take on the later delivery slots from EY there really is no looser in this scenario. This could also allow EK to take delivery of an even more mature aircraft with weight targets met allowing for further efficiency gains as are not the current birds overweight even though they are still meeting fuel consumption targets?

Or am I missing something?



Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7201 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14372 times:



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 2):
Evidence, maybe. Proof sounds a bit, er "final"...

You are quite right. I accept the correction.  embarrassed 



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14355 times:

Assuming that all this is correct (and I am not convinced) to what end would EY put these aircraft that EK could not? If EK, which AFAIK has a more comprehensive route network than EY, couldn't put them to good use, why would EY fare any better?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4070 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14354 times:

Now, that would be strong evidence that things are not going as well as EK would like us to believe.


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User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4919 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14282 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
Now, that would be strong evidence that things are not going as well as EK would like us to believe.

Actually by planning ahead and taking proactive action that would support my belief that EK do in fact know what they are doing.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Assuming that all this is correct (and I am not convinced) to what end would EY put these aircraft that EK could not? If EK, which AFAIK has a more comprehensive route network than EY, couldn't put them to good use, why would EY fare any better?

They are at different stages of maturity EK is huge and very established. EY could possibly use the 380 to slot restricted markets to get a boost. Although I do agree that EK letting EY back into the game is a little odd...

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineArabAirX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14282 times:



Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
From a very reliable source

Erm, NO.

Sorry, but this is nonsense of the highest order, EY will not be taking EK's A380's. End of "story".


User currently offlineC680 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14139 times:



Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
If this was true , this is a strong proof that Emirates does not get any government support, at any stage.

Much to the contrary - the thing that makes this rumor all the more believable is that it has EY from oil rich Abu Dhabi taking over A380 deliveries from EK's debt laden Dubai.

Sounds like a case of one Emirate helping (taking advantage of?) another - or should I say "being opportunistic?"



My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
User currently offlineColts001 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14138 times:

Assuming this is ture, where will EY deploy those planes? there are not a whole bunch of routes in EY network which would currently support the big whale. Beyond AUH-LHR there are not any routes that will support this.

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4070 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13944 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 8):
Actually by planning ahead and taking proactive action that would support my belief that EK do in fact know what they are doing.

Can you provide evidence that EK, by looking at this transaction NOW, is "planning ahead"?

We have been talking about the impact of the global recession on Dubai for months now. If EK was planning ahead, they would have had a plan in place for a severe downturn before it started happening. This coming up at this point sounds like planning behind the curve.



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User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21590 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13930 times:



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 1):
On what basis?

Depends on the contract. Some contracts prohibit selling of slots or reselling of aircraft within a set period of time.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1073 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13911 times:



Quoting C680 (Reply 10):
oil rich Abu Dhabi taking over A380 deliveries from EK's debt laden Dubai

bingo! so much to government support  Smile no money, no honey Big grin



I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13787 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
Now, that would be strong evidence that things are not going as well as EK would like us to believe.



Quoting YOWza (Reply 8):
Actually by planning ahead and taking proactive action that would support my belief that EK do in fact know what they are doing.

Agree. EK have proven time and time again that they do in fact know what they are doing where growth/profitability is concerned. They are cognizant of the fact that there is a global recession going on and as such make pro-active adjustments accordingly.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 8):
They are at different stages of maturity EK is huge and very established. EY could possibly use the 380 to slot restricted markets to get a boost. Although I do agree that EK letting EY back into the game is a little odd...

Very true. Agree as well. Remember the ( pragmatic and smart ) move EK made with regards to the A380 and JFK/YYZ ? EY could possibly do likewise. But at the end of the day I am positive EK knows very well what they are doing, whether this development is true or not.



greenheart
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13529 times:

I have doubts about this. EK was the carrier that always wanted the A380s as quickly as possible, now they are to give ten to EY?? Besides, is AUH ready for A380 service? Especially such a number of A380s?

User currently offlineBBADXB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13445 times:

I have it from inside sources, that cabin crew are being offered 6 months' unpaid leave. That is quite interesting in the light that up to a few months ago, they were recruiting 90 cabin crew per week. I take a very skeptical view of all this gloss and glitter of management excellence, proactiveness and whatever nonsense euphemism one would like to call it. To my it is biting far more than one can chew.

User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 859 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13447 times:

'
Me think EK wait for the A380-900 to be built, they wanted the -900 model in the 1st place ´cuz the -800 was to small that´s why this story of EK/EY !!!

Cheers

//Mike  Wow!

[Edited 2009-04-13 12:13:15]


Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13351 times:



Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):

Now, the big question is: Is it legal if this happend, can Airbus refuse this deal and sue Emirates ?

Why? If I agree to buy six bushels of apples from you and buy them and pay for them and then turn around and sell them to someone else, what damage have I caused you? In order to sue, you have to prove that the other party caused you damages. EK taking delivery and paying on time doesn't damage Airbus in any way.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13182 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
If I agree to buy six bushels of apples from you and buy them and pay for them and then turn around and sell them to someone else, what damage have I caused you? In order to sue, you have to prove that the other party caused you damages. EK taking delivery and paying on time doesn't damage Airbus in any way.

While there's nothing illegal about the above scenario with regards to EK & EY, Airbus does not deal in a commodity. It is selling something of unique value. To that end, it would be in its interests to make sure to the extent possible that additional sales (e.g., to EY) are not diminished by having an existing sale (e.g., EK) passed along to the other potential sale, thereby killing the prospect of selling ten more units. Besides, EK could end up becoming a competitor to Airbus - Airbus is selling A380's, and now EK is selling A380's as well. I'm sure the contract Airbus signed with EK was a contract for a sale-and-purchase by an end user, not a contract for sale to a supplier. Contracts are written to safeguard against these scenarios all the time, and I have no doubt that the aircraft OEM's do it as well.

Now, despite this, I don't think Airbus will balk at EK passing along it's airplanes to EY. The market for VLAs has proven to be quite fragile and at this point Airbus does not want to disrupt its production and delivery schedule because in the short term it will disrupt its cashflow. I'm sure they will turn a blind eye and deal with the fallout at some point in the future when demand in that market returns, or at least improves.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21590 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12778 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Why? If I agree to buy six bushels of apples from you and buy them and pay for them and then turn around and sell them to someone else, what damage have I caused you?

If you are a launch customer or large customer who gets a launch/volume discount and then turn around as a middle man and resells the aircraft you receive for a lower rate than the current market rate for an early build aircraft, you are undercutting the market and creating an arbitrage.

This is why such practices are usually forbidden and written into contracts as forbidden.

If this story is in any way true, EK either has a very sweet, free contract with Airbus that doesn't restrict this, or the real story is the EK is working with Airbus to transfer the planes to EY in a way Airbus agrees to.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
Besides, EK could end up becoming a competitor to Airbus - Airbus is selling A380's, and now EK is selling A380's as well.

This is very true. It's one reason why Boeing restricted sales of 787s to non-lessors for the first few years of production. That was the initial plan, at least.

In both cases, market realities can make these restrictions "soft" instead of "hard".



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12484 times:

Quoting Colts001 (Reply 11):
Assuming this is ture, where will EY deploy those planes? there are not a whole bunch of routes in EY network which would currently support the big whale. Beyond AUH-LHR there are not any routes that will support this.

I would disagree with you. Just remember where EK and DXB were 15 or even 10 years ago. They are as big as they are today because they built themselves from scratch trying to become more attractive that the competitor. The recipe has worked successfully so far. I don't see why EY and AUH cannot have the same fate, especially if DXB declines, as there will be a niche to be taken.
There will still be people and cargo to be carried between continents, no matter what. I don't think it matters for most to transit via AUH vs DXB vs anywhere else, if a competitive travel time, fare and level of service is offered.

[Edited 2009-04-13 12:59:47]


When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineBillReid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12485 times:



Quoting ArabAirX (Reply 9):
Erm, NO.

Sorry, but this is nonsense of the highest order, EY will not be taking EK's A380's. End of "story".

I agree, this seams so unlikely. Simply way too many reasons why not.

I think the real story is the collapse of yield and pax through the middle east as a result of the economic crisis.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12445 times:

I would also think it is entirely in the control of an airline to sublease or wet lease aircraft to another airline beyond selling an aircraft directly. I would think Airbus would deliver the aircraft as specified or as ordered and then any modifications would have to be done later. If EK is indeed going to take some 50 odd examples of the aircraft I don't think AB is going to start pushing their weight around at this stage with the VLA market under some stress due to the economy.

25 CV580Freak : Hardly an 'inside tip' as it was published in all the Gulf newspapers. If EY wants the A380 earlier then it's a win win for both carriers.
26 Stitch : Color me skeptical on this one, as well. EY was supposed to take four of the test frame birds, but then was rumored to actually cancel the deal. In 20
27 BBADXB : Oh thanks for that info. I thought the media was banned from publishing bad economic news in Dubai!
28 Colts001 : In the long run can EY/AUH grow as big as EK/DXB? the answer is yes definitely, but in the present context EY does not have the network or the load f
29 Rolfen : It all depends on the contract they (Airbus and Emirates) signed, but normally, I dont see any reason why either Airbus or Emirates would include in
30 Pnwtraveler : Well if you believe all the hyperbole thrown around about the masses of Canadians unable to visit Dubai and not able to get to most of the world becau
31 Ikramerica : There are reasons given above. This is a common practice with cars in low tariff nations, so much so that for certain high demand expensive vehicle m
32 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : Which one of the 50,900 results was your "inside source"? Just wondering... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=emirates+cabin+crew+unpaid+leave The same damage tha
33 Sirtoby : Didn't EY order the Trent - could be a problem in Toulouse to switch production plans from a EA powered A/C to a Rolls powered A/C. Purchase orders fo
34 JohnKrist : Not only that, everything that is EK/EY specific has probably been planned already, and all sub contractors have a schedule on deliveries they work b
35 MEA330 : EK can lease or sell their A380's to EY after delivery from Airbus. BUT Airbus will deliver an A380 to EK specifications as stated in their initial co
36 Nitepilot79 : An Etihad A380 would look pretty smooth, perhaps the best livery yet
37 Alianza : Although, it has been mentioned before that Abu Dhabi has found themselves the owner of the parent of EK, which they acquired due to the economic con
38 Jambrain : Yes, you would have thought 40 engines switched from EA to RR (or the converse) would cause some interesting conversations for the production boys!!
39 PM : Sort of. They initially agreed to take 4 of the test frames. Three of them by default came with RR. They were also planning to take one of EA test fr
40 ArabAirX : Any news on the fate of those test frames?
41 Scouseflyer : MSN002 will be going to a VIP customer and 2 of the other three are being taken by EK (one later on this year I think).
42 NCB : That could be indeed 2 birds killed with one stone if combined with the economic challenges of Dubai at this moment. Still, this is just a rumour or
43 Burkhard : Fairy tales from Arabia are full of such stories where the two brothers don't know either until the bride is gone. Our materialistic logic does not a
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