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Will TWA's A318/319 Order Go To NW?  
User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 4
Posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Does anyone think NW will pick up the A318.A319s from TWA now that AA has said they don't want them.

They would make a good DC9 replacement.

Any thoughts?


16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNwa#1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

It is possible.

The DC9 has a few years left in it and I know the A318s were due to arrive at TWA in 2003 (which may be too soon for the bulk of NW DC9s under their current retirement plans)

If NW wanted to retire the DC9s earlier I could see the A318 coming in. Or possibly, the DC9 could stay on for a while A318s arrive.

While I would like to see or hear about a DC9 replacement I am not sure when it will be coming. However, with the mechanics now settled the replacement for the DC9 will move up on the list of things to do. Maybe the AA dumping of the A318s will just come at the right time for NW to pick it up.


User currently offlineGo Around From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

I'll emphasize that I'm just thinking out loud here, and have not heard one peep about this while at work. But, with AWA apparently still getting 318's to replace their 737-200's and already flying 319's, it would seem conceiveable to see us jump in on these orders if the price were right. There has been rumors of the the 318 not being built but just last month there was a memo saying the rumors aren't true, and the 318 is still coming to AWA. Seems there might be room for a few more if the price were right.

I know the argument that the 318 doesn't fit here, but since it is going to apparently happen, I say lets get em' if we can.


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6420 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Hey friends, it doesn't work that way.
No metal has been cut for those planes yet.
When an order is cancelled (and it happens from time to time) then the order book is shuffled a little. Some airlines will be happy because it means that they can get their new planes a little earlier. Maybe in addition Airbus also adjusts the 320 assembly line growth plan a little.
If NW wants 320 family planes as replacement for old DC-9s, then they will get the type or mixture of types they want, when they want them.
This cancellation is of course a blow to Airbus, but hardly an unexpected one since TWA's situation has been no secret for quite some time. In any case it is five percent of the total 320 family order backlog in Toulouse in number of planes. Even less in value since they were all in the smaller half of the product family.
With such a relatively large order Airbus is lucky that it happen now, and not when half of the planes are at different stages on the assembly line. That happens too, both for Airbus and Boeing, at least on minor scales. On a fifty planes order that would be a major blow.
Best regards, Preben Norholm



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1862 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

The A319 TWA ordered are with the V2500 engine, and the A318s are with the PW6000 engine. So, NW with a big fleet of A320 with the CFM56 engines is unlikely to after TW's A318/319. In additoin, if NW orders a DC-9 replacement, it will be a rather sizable order. TWA's A318/319 orders would not be enough for NW's DC-9 replacement.

User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

I know the planes aren't being made yet, I was just saying that maybe NW could take TWA's place on the delivery schedule.

I know the DC9 fleet is 170+ airplanes and the TWA order was only 30, but I thought it might have been a place to start the ball rolling on the DC9 retirement. For example the really high time planes leave with the intital order of A318s and the lower time wait until another order slot.



User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1650 times:

I just don't see the A318 as a DC-9 replacement. It's such a heavier plane than the DC-9 that the operating economies that you'd like to see in a replacement for the small end of the spectrum simply won't be there (even though there will be a nice bounce from the commonality). I'm not saying it wouldn't happen if the price was right (i.e., giveaway).

I think NW would order the 717 as a DC-9 replacement tomorrow if they thought they could work Boeing for a good price. However, they know there's no need to rush on this as they just invested a whole bunch in their DC-9 fleet and are confident they can keep them operating for at least another 5 years. They'll try and wait for the moment when they can work Boeing vs. Airbus for the best possible price, something at which they are without equal.

Hence, from a purely operational standpoint, I think the 717 wins hands down. But purchase price and terms do play into the equation.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineFjnovak1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 607 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1635 times:

I think that Northwest may be another case where both would fit well into the fleet. Not all of Northwest DC-9 routes are short hops where the 717 would have the ultimate advantage. The A318 and additional A319 craft would be advantageous to routes two hours and up that are currently operated with DC-9 series -30 and -40 planes like DTW-DFW, DTW-ATL, DTW-FLL, DTW-MIA, DTW-PBI, DTW-JAX, DTW-SRQ, MSP-RDU, MSP-CLE, MSP-MEM, MEM-MIA, MSP-IAD, MSP-JFK, MEM-FLL, etc...

Additionally, the A318 has the range capability to open longer thin routes from the NW hubs (MSP-PVD, MSP-MHT, DTW-PSP, DTW-TUS, MEM-SNA, DTW-ONT, MEM-PDX, DTW-SMF to name a few possibilities) as well as to cut capacity on a few current routes that are currently operated with 319 and 320s that have empty seats often (MSP-BOI, MSP-GEG, MSP-TUS) solely because the aircraft is used for its longer range. Then you can redeploy these 319s and 320 on routes where they can replace DC-9 series aircraft where you know you can fill the extra seats like MSP-DCA and MSP-LGA, MSP-ORD, and MSP-DTW.

So the 318 could blend nicely into the fleet. In addition, customers would appreciate the extra room of the A318 (6 abreast) as compared to the narrower cabin of the DC-9 (5 abreast). I seem to remember the comfirmed order for TWA Airbus aircraft was only 25-30 planes. With the new DTW gates on the way and lots of new route possibilities for new connections at the MEM and MSP hubs, (not to mention maybe some point to point routes too that would be nice) Northwest could take all of those planes and use them solely for expansion purposes only. Then they could decide later if they want like 100+ 318s or if they want to then go for the 717 for the 160 or so DC-9s that aren't scheduled currently to retire...



Go Blue!!
User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1624 times:

I actually have thought somewhat the same thing. While the 318 wouldn't be the best sole replacement for the DC-9, it still could play a role in the NW fleet. The commonality with the 319/320s would mean that you wouldn't necessarily have to get a whole bunch of them to make it worthwhile.

Airbus, now without a US customer for the type, might be willing to deal. Just a thought.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1618 times:

I think I said that but I didn't make it clear enough.

The A318s could come in at 2003 and take place of the oldest DC9s and then allow NW a couple more years operating the younger DC9s and deciding on a replacement for the bulk of the DC9 fleet.

The A318 does fit well for longer flights on thinner routes that don't need all the seats of an A320.

I think the A318 would eventually do well on the DC9-40/-50s routes and the 717 could replace the 100+ DC9-30s.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

I think one thing that NW is watching with interest is the BAe/Avro RJX-100 program. If the RJX-100 does live up to its promises on the airlines that have ordered the plane, NW could be in serious talks to buy over 130 RJX-100's over a 6-7 year period to completely replace their DC-9 fleet.

This will allow NW to fly into smaller airports from MSP and DTW, even those with very short runways.

This is why I think AC's DC-9/F28 replacement should be the RJX-100.  Smile


User currently offlineAKelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2191 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

RayChuang:

And who would operate the RJX-100s? Mesaba? NW pilots would never allow it!

Folks, there are a lot of factors that go into ordering a plane then just the # of seats.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

AKelley728:

The RJX-100's will be flown by mainline pilots. After all, they are going to be DC-9 replacements, and DC-9's are currently flown by mainline pilots.  Smile


User currently offlineBraniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

Personally, while I don't care as much for Airbus, I would think the A318 / 319 is a great choice for NW. Yes it's bigger, but it offers much more flexibility with the NWA fleet. Image all of the DC-9's, 727's replaced with an all A320 series fleet! The commonality would be great, the bulk of your pilots can fly almost any route, and the FA's will all be familiar with the aircraft systems.

In the long run, I think the saving to the airline would far out weigh the initial cost.



Climbing
User currently offlineAWA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1561 times:

"Airbus, now without a US customer for the type, might be willing to deal. Just a thought."

America West was one of the launch customers for the A318 with 15 orders.


User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

I think fleet commonality is the major importance to NW so I think the A318 is infront.

I think both Boeing and Airbus know that NW needs ALOT of new planes...

Boeing could give a good deal on 717s (dc9s) and 747s/777s for (last of DC10s and 747-200s)

Airbus could give a good deal on A318 (dc9s) and A340-500/600s for the last of the DC10s and 747-200s.

NW can go either way.

For example in the last order they went with Boeing for the 747s and 757s and airbus for the A330s and additional A319s.

But I remember the Republic 757s being sold because of the different engine types and I think NW could save lots of money from the A318 with similar pilots and training and maintainence.

Overall, the A318 also allows for a much more FLEXIBLE fleet because they could basically swap any of the A318s A319s or A320s if there was a maintainence delay or if the load on one flight needed it, as well as the ability to find crews easily if one certain crew has used up their hours or been delayed on another flight. where as the 717 doesn't have the range or the commonality to be so flexible.


User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (13 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1538 times:

Yes, I know and Frontier has them ordered, too. I was obviously too tired to make sense when I posted that. Thanks for the correction.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin



Too many types flown to list
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