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AA Starting MD-80 Phaseout  
User currently offlineDingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 23289 times:

The New York Times just ran an article:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009...AP-American-Airlines-New-Jets.html

First of 76 B738s to replace about 25% of the venerable AA workhorses, the MD-80s.

Article basically says more seats on the B738, better mileage, power plugs in Y, and 10" LCD screens every few rows.

So what's the AA phaseout schedule for the MD-80s? Nothing against them; I enjoyed my flights on the Mad Dogs, but am curious what kind of timeline we're talking about here.


DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
136 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 23268 times:

One of the biggest hurdles to fleetwide 738 adoption is a decision AA made a long time back to confine all 738 flying to and from the DFW hub, and keep ORD as an MD-80 only base (for shorthaul narrowbodies, at least). It may have saved a few bucks back then, but I've always wondered if this was a penny-wise and pound foolish decision. I'm wondering if this lead directly to AA having to drop several mainline ORD routes about this time last year when oil was near record highs?

I'm assuming that part of this plan is to re-introduce 738 hub operations at ORD....which would be a good move.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 23202 times:

One of the reasons I don't fly AA very much is because of the dreadful MD-80s. The overhead bins are too small, the droning of the engines in the back seating is numbing, and the fuselage curvature makes window seats cramped.

It is unfortunate that AA is not equipping their new 738s with personal video screens which Delta is doing for theirs. It is also sad that AA and DL will still be flying MD-80s for a long time when they are disappearing in Europe and Asia. I guess they still have financial problems.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20243 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 23028 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
It may have saved a few bucks back then, but I've always wondered if this was a penny-wise and pound foolish decision. I'm wondering if this lead directly to AA having to drop several mainline ORD routes about this time last year when oil was near record highs?

AA has known for some time that the Mad Dogs were going to be phased out. They are roughly equivalent to the 733. The decision to restrict them to certain hubs was a wise one as it simplifies maintenance.

If they are going to phase out the MD's, they know they are going to have to replace them with a comparable A/C. Obviously, that would be the 738. They will probably have to buy more to replace the capacity.

I don't see how mixing narrowbody fleets would simplify the situation now and I don't see how it would have saved any money then or now.


User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1834 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 22994 times:

From the article: "American got its first MD-80 in 1983, and the average age now is 19 years."

That doesn't sound right. I'm sure I saw AA Mad-Dogs in the late 70's and early 80's when I lived in Ft. Worth and flew out of DFW on a regular basis. Am I wrong?

As for replacing the Mad-Dogs, as I have said in the past they were good planes in their time, but it's now time to start retiring them.

I'm hoping some of my summer trips will be on the new 73's.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 22912 times:

This is nothing new. Just the latest article of something we've been expecting for a long time.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
They are roughly equivalent to the 733.

The 734 is more comparable

Quoting Contrails (Reply 4):
From the article: "American got its first MD-80 in 1983, and the average age now is 19 years."

That doesn't sound right. I'm sure I saw AA Mad-Dogs in the late 70's and early 80's when I lived in Ft. Worth and flew out of DFW on a regular basis. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. The MD-80 was not in service in the late 70s. AA's first delivery was in 1983, the last in 1992. The yongest frames are ex-TW, built in 1999.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 22860 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
AA has known for some time that the Mad Dogs were going to be phased out. They are roughly equivalent to the 733.

Actually, they are much worse. They are considerably noisier than the 737-300 and the JT8D turbofans are not as efficient as the CFM56s. The JTs have a lower bypass ratio than the CFMs. Also, the MD80 went into service 4 years earlier than the 737-300.


User currently offlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 22706 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 6):
Also, the MD80 went into service 4 years earlier than the 737-300.

I know people loathe Wikipedia but.....The MD80 went into service in October 1980 and the B737-300 in 1981

KD


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 22683 times:



Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 7):
B737-300 in 1981

B733 was first ordered in '81 but went into service in '84.


User currently offlineFuturestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 22519 times:

okay, pax are looking on more frequencies instead of bigger airplanes, thats what the general trend to regional jets is showing us... so is AA really going to replace the MDs with 737? what about some smaller jets? how are the chances that AA does NOT replace at least some of their MDs with Boeing-airplanes (the A319 or the E190 come to my mind...)?

User currently offlinePia777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1738 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 22474 times:

Great, I like the 737-800. I hate flying MD80s on long flights like ord-lax.

PIA777



GO CUBS!!
User currently offlineExaauadl From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 22425 times:



Quoting Contrails (Reply 4):
That doesn't sound right. I'm sure I saw AA Mad-Dogs in the late 70's and early 80's when I lived in Ft. Worth and flew out of DFW on a regular basis. Am I wrong?

yes you are wrong. Im not even sure AA was the fist US customer for the DC-9-80 as it was called then. I think AY and SR were the launch customers.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
The 734 is more comparable

The 734 is much more efficient than the MD80. Same number of seats rougly but the 734 has lower fuel consumption with the CFMs than MD80 does with the JT8Ds. The 734s main problem is it is underpowered.


User currently offlineJaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 22295 times:

I'll miss the 2/3 seating on the MD-80's the most. I love getting the window seat and only having one person to crawl over if I want to leave my seat rather than 2 people.

User currently offlineAirnerd From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 22236 times:

I thought the question was about the phase-out program - not if you like or don't like flying AA MD80s. And it's a good question too. Last I checked AA was flying 272 MD80s. Obviously that's going to take awhile. AA's got 85 738s on order. Those will take a few years to deliver, and will still leave close to 200 MD80s unreplaced. Even if AA cuts back on capacity and parks quite a few of them permanently, they're going to have to order more aircraft, and it'll take even longer to get rid of all the MD80s. I have a hard time imagining any scenario that takes less than 5 years to phase them all out - and even that would be really aggressive.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 22121 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
I'm assuming that part of this plan is to re-introduce 738 hub operations at ORD....which would be a good move.

I expect we'll see the 738s replace the longest S80 flying, which is mostly ORD- and STL-west coast, along with ORD-PVR and a handful of DFW routes (SEA, PDX, YYC, BOS).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 22039 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
I expect we'll see the 738s replace the longest S80 flying, which is mostly ORD- and STL-west coast, along with ORD-PVR and a handful of DFW routes (SEA, PDX, YYC, BOS).

Definately. ORD-West Coast is probably where we will mostly see the 738 flying out of ORD. As you mention, out of DFW- SEA, PDX, and YYC will more than likely see them.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 21634 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
One of the biggest hurdles to fleetwide 738 adoption is a decision AA made a long time back to confine all 738 flying to and from the DFW hub, and keep ORD as an MD-80 only base (for shorthaul narrowbodies, at least).

It was not about making ORD an MD80 base and only DFW a 737 base. There are other 737 bases - including LAX and MIA. The issue was simplification. It cost less money to simplify the number of aircraft types at major hub stations.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
It may have saved a few bucks back then, but I've always wondered if this was a penny-wise and pound foolish decision.

Not in the slightest. It was a very prudent decision.

There was no need to pay for the spare parts, equipment, materials, training, etc. for all these years for the 737s to be at ORD when there was only a fleet of 77 of them spread across the entire system. And especially once the 727s were retired, and a great deal of the 737 flying was concentrated solely in Miami, it really made no sense to spread the fleet that thing. Now, with 76 new 737s arriving, it will make sense to bring them back into ORD a bit because there will be more of them flying around, and because the longer ORD-West Coast MD80 runs have become more expensive with fuel.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
I'm assuming that part of this plan is to re-introduce 738 hub operations at ORD....which would be a good move.

And by that I assume you mean re-open a 737 crew base at ORD, and the answer is yes, the 737 base reopened in the last few weeks.

Quoting Futurestar68 (Reply 9):
so is AA really going to replace the MDs with 737? what about some smaller jets? how are the chances that AA does NOT replace at least some of their MDs with Boeing-airplanes (the A319 or the E190 come to my mind...)?

Until AA gets some sort of a deal worked out on smaller (than MD80) jets worked out with the pilots, I doubt we'll see anything smaller than an MD80 anytime soon.

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 12):
I'll miss the 2/3 seating on the MD-80's the most. I love getting the window seat and only having one person to crawl over if I want to leave my seat rather than 2 people.

Me too.

I will miss the Super 80s so much. As I have long said - and as many, many AA frequent flyers I know can appreciate: as long as you're not sitting in the last 5 rows of Coach, the Super 80 is one of the most comfortable rides in the sky, at least in my experience. I love the 2-3 seating, which greatly reduces my chances of getting a middle, and with the engines at the back, the cabin - especially in F or the first 10-15 rows of Y - is remarkably quiet. Plus, with the cabin retrofits AA did to the MD80s around 1998-2001, I find the MD80 cabins now to be among the nicest of any in the AA fleet.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 13):
AA's got 85 738s on order. Those will take a few years to deliver, and will still leave close to 200 MD80s unreplaced. Even if AA cuts back on capacity and parks quite a few of them permanently, they're going to have to order more aircraft, and it'll take even longer to get rid of all the MD80s. I have a hard time imagining any scenario that takes less than 5 years to phase them all out - and even that would be really aggressive.

Nobody is saying that these 76 new 737s will replace all of AA's existing MD80 fleet. This is just the beginning of the MD80 phaseout. But yes, as you rightly say, it is going to be years - at least another decade and probably closer to two, depending on what happens in the world - before you see the last of the AA MD80s gone.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
I expect we'll see the 738s replace the longest S80 flying, which is mostly ORD- and STL-west coast, along with ORD-PVR and a handful of DFW routes (SEA, PDX, YYC, BOS).

Indeed.

I expect that the longest MD80 routes will see the most 737s the soonest. That means ORD-LAX/SFO/SEA/SAN, etc. and DFW-SEA/PDX/SFO, etc.


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 21593 times:



Quoting DingDong (Thread starter):
First of 76 B738s to replace about 25% of the venerable AA workhorses, the MD-80s.

I don't think it is accurate to state that the 738 is replacing the M80 anyway. I think it must be more complicated than that.

The A300s are being eased out of service with no direct replacement planned. Some of the A300 routes are being replaced with 757s and others with 767s. In addition, AA is increasing service to Brazil and Latin America which will use more 757s, 767s and possibly some 738s.

The 738 is a much more capable aircraft than the M80 since it is able to fly transcon and 6 hour flights to northern Latin America. It is also to be equipped with video monitors for movies which the M80 is not.

I suspect some of the 738s will replace 757s or 767s and those aircraft will be redeployed on other international flights and to the Caribbean. Some of the "thin" transcons such as SAN-BOS and SAN-JFK could be downgraded to 738 instead of current 757/767.


User currently offlineOzark1 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 21265 times:

From a flight attendant's perspective, the MD80 has gone from being a favorite to work, to one to be avoided, at least in coach.. Flying up front is great---nice galley----away from the pax so no one has to watch you work and get set up for the service, but the back is a claustrophobic sardine can with no where to go. They took out the rearmost galley and added 4 seats when they did away with "More Room Throughout Coach". These planes are a real challenge to work on a DFW-SEA leg when every single storage space is full---two services done, including a can to each person on the first run through. When I worked a 737 for the first time the biggest difference to me was how much wider the aisle was. That and the back galley have been instrumental in making this a F/A favorite. The overhead bins on the MD80 are larger than those on the 737, although no matter what the size, we are having to check LOTS more luggage since the $15 bag fee came into effect. It seems like on every flight i am rearranging rollerboards so that more can be accommodated. I do understand, from a pax perspective, the enjoyment of the 3-2 seating.
In a delay, the MD80 is a challenge because there is nothing to keep the pax occupied. On planes with some kind of entertainment, a wait on the tarmac becomes a little more tolerable.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 21192 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
That means ORD-LAX/SFO/SEA/SAN, etc. and DFW-SEA/PDX/SFO, etc

I want to see 738's on DFW-YYC so bad. I would think they would be high on the list since its the 4th longest M-80 route out of DFW and only has 2 flights a day.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSLUAviator From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 357 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20849 times:

Take it as you will, but according to the Chicago Tribune all of the new 737s are going to be based at O'Hare.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...-737-fleet-april13,0,6787169.story



What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11840 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20790 times:



Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 20):
Take it as you will, but according to the Chicago Tribune all of the new 737s are going to be based at O'Hare.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...story

Definitely false.

Many of them with be based at Chicago, but there is almost no question that least some of these planes will find their way to D/FW and Miami, and probably a few onto transcons out of LAX and possibly JFK as well.


User currently offlineMoman From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20741 times:

It's really sad when we as a society cannot go more than 2-3 hours without seeing things on a moving video screen.

Regardless, I enjoy the MD's but find the 738 to be more roomy in both F and Y. I especially like the bins on the 738 as a rollerboard can fit wheels in on both sides, where on the MD it's only on the DEF side.

My local station (TPA) is now down to only 738 and MD-80 flying, and soon the ORD runs will be 738, leaving only JFK and DFW with the MD-80.



AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5948 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20715 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There are two more AA 738's ready to go at Boeing Field.

I like the maddogs for one reason...the 2-seat side (love seats). It's easier to deal with when nature calls.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20435 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 17):
I don't think it is accurate to state that the 738 is replacing the M80 anyway. I think it must be more complicated than that.

Sure, the 738 are going in to replace M80 where they provide the biggest bang for the buck. New planes are expensive, so they will take advantage of the 737's greater capability. This means longer routes where comfort, quiet, are a bigger priority. They will take that duty from the M80s and extend it.

Is it "replacement.." Kinda sorta. Only in some areas of the M80 game.


25 Post contains images 727LOVER : I know its a phaseout, but please, we're talking north of 275 frames right?. This would be the largest phaseout in aviation history. They outnumber th
26 Commavia : Somewhere in that neighborhood, but it's hard to track down a definitive number of frames that are actually operating - until the next quarterly SEC
27 FlyASAGuy2005 : As for the phasing out, I don't think it will be a one for one process. Here's a thought. Does anyone see the 737-700 is AA's future? But as others ha
28 Cubsrule : Here are the long (>1400 nm) M80 flights ORD-LAX 6x (and 1x 752, 1x 763), 1516 nm (2 738s start next week) ORD-PVR 1x seasonal, 1549 nm ORD-SAN 4x 14
29 Commavia : Yep. It almost certainly won't be a 1-for-1 thing. It will probably be a more than 1-for-1 scenario - in other words: 76 new 737s in, more than 76 ol
30 FlyASAGuy2005 : I'm with you man. Yeah, in a perfect world it would be nice to see DL/AA/UA, etc pick up a whole punch of 100+ seater a/c into their fleet because the
31 Cubsrule : I don't know about the 73G. The costs of the 73G and the 738 aren't too much different, so unless AA never fills the additional seats, they might not
32 Quickmover : You are right and this is something I don't understand about any 73G operator. If a 738 and a 73G cost nearly the same and operate for the same money
33 Commavia : A good point. The 700s and 800s are almost identical, so there would be very little in the way of marginal cost associated with a fleet of 700s. Trai
34 FlyASAGuy2005 : Take DL as a good example. It was a pretty good niche for them to place the a/c on "hot & high" routes and other short field-type routes were the 757
35 ElBandGeek : It just seems the biggest problem AA has with with longterm fleet renewal is that they have such a huge, but simple fleet. Large numbers of any partic
36 Cubsrule : So you have what, SNA and TGU? The 73G isn't needed for SNA-DFW (the 738 can do it), and the 752 is probably the right aircraft size-wise for TGU-MIA
37 Post contains links Eghansen : The same story in the Chicago Tribune adding that all new 737-800s will be based in Chicago. http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...-737-fleet-april13
38 FlyASAGuy2005 : Well I guess the example works best for DL as they have plans to fly to quite a Central/South cities. With AA as you've said, markets are much more m
39 STT757 : The 737-700 has too high of a CASM, CO stopped taking delivery of them years ago. The 737-900ER is the sweet spot, it has a rock bottom CASM that wou
40 Post contains links Deltaffindfw : More info from the Dallas Morning News - the planes will be based in ORD partially due to the new seating config - 160 pax vs 148 for the older 738s.
41 FlyASAGuy2005 : I figured that was a give. ------------------- My only thing with the 73G and the 738 is why WN hasn't ordered any yet. Maybe it's because it best fi
42 Cubsrule : WN doesn't regularly fill the 73Gs on very many routes. It's a different business model from legacies, which tend to have a much higher average load
43 DfwRevolution : That concurs with what AA has said in the past about their MD-80s and 738s. It looks to me like they ordered 19 more on February 21, 2008 Most airlin
44 ElBandGeek : I'd bet they didn't want to have to add the extra F/A on the 738. Without F, they really don't have the option of cutting enough seats to get by with
45 Post contains links AAR90 : Already been heavily discussed here
46 STT757 : When CO places an order for 737s they always list them as 73Gs for some reason, but when the delivery date nears they are switched to 737-800s or 737
47 SirSheldon : or how about the new Bombardier C-series jets?
48 DLMD90 : You couldn't have put it better! The MD80 gives one of the best rides in the sky, and is VERY quiet from row 27 forward. I would take it over a 757 a
49 Lightsaber : With a Decade replacement schedule, I could see 100 to 150 C-series orders. Perhaps as many as 200. Caviat: The C300 would have to perform well and b
50 T5towbar : Yeah. I'm glad we don't have the "Mad-Dogs" anymore. They were a bear to load, and you always keep hitting your head on the doors! I don't miss 'em a
51 Post contains links TrijetsRMissed : Sorry, but neither of these statements are true. The 734 is not much more efficient, as a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite. The MD-88 has a le
52 Sovietjet : Personally I think it's sad to see the MD80 start to go. Oh great, another carrier with a boring 737 fleet. I think a lot of us here on the site enjoy
53 DocLightning : No, AIRLINES are looking on more frequencies so that it appears to pax as if there is superior service on that route. What PAX actually want is ON-TI
54 Eghansen : You are right about the MD-88 being more efficient than the 737-400, although American does not own any MD-88s. The MD-88 first flew in August 1987 w
55 QualityDr : I recently flew AUS-DFW-MSP, and the second leg was a 738. Nice ride! All my other MSP-DFW and DFW-MSP legs this year have been MD-80. I wonder: Was
56 SurfandSnow : With those leases through 2024, looks like the AA MD-80 phaseout will be a 2 decade affair! Nevertheless, it is an absolutely massive undertaking to r
57 Contrails : I checked schedules yesterday for some trips I have planned for this summer, all via DFW, and in each case they have Mad-Dogs assigned. Bummer! IFE ma
58 CF-CPI : I'd have to check, but it seems PSA was one of the early users in late 1980. Until AA wangled its deal from MDC, there was a 3 year period in which P
59 Floridaflyboy : I don't think it's a matter of that people can't (some can't, but not most). I think it is more that it is nice if there is something to make the tim
60 Manfredj : I'd like to say a few things about the MD's. I have always thought they were brilliant aircraft in that they didn't have the traditional 3-3 seating t
61 Rwylie77 : So where will all the MD80's being parked in the desert end up? Do they have buyers for some (if so, where do you think they will end up), or do they
62 Lightsaber : Your 10 year phase out is most likely if AA waits for the Y1. But I wonder... there is the C-series, MRJ's, and E-jets. A mix of 738's/739's to repla
63 Rwylie77 : They have signed leases on some of them up until 2024, so a D Check maybe cheaper than ending a lease early...?
64 Lightsaber : Good lord, these will be more immortal than the NW DC-9's! You have a good point... with that long of a lease, AA might be stuck with them for a long
65 Rikkus67 : ME LIKEY BREADSTICKS! ("Family Guy" reference) I wonder if the C100/C300 hopeful economics would make it a viable replacement for smaller routes?
66 Brilondon : I found maddogs to be an excellent plane. The bins over the two seats were always small by design. As for being cramped, you must be seven feet tall.
67 Contrails : In my case, boredom. There was a time when a flight on the shuttle to LGA would get me excited, but that was a long time ago. I've flown enough times
68 Cba : Agreed... most airports I visit these days in the US are composed of 3 basic aircraft types: 1. 737 2. 757/767 3. 777 Sometimes you get lucky and see
69 Futurestar68 : E.g., you want to fly from A to B because you have a meeting there at 10am, your airline has 3 daily flights scheduled, with the return flights sched
70 Eghansen : When the MD-80s first flew, they were an excellent plane. Their nearest competition was the Boeing 727 which had three engines and was more expensive
71 44k : The 737 service has officially begun today with AA1565 ORD-MSP this morning. The flight left 2 minutes early and arrived 15 minutes early at the gate
72 ElBandGeek : I could care less about IFE if more planes had this. My laptop has 10 times the boredom-surpressing value as a PTV. As soon as AA starts rolling out
73 KELPkid : I see this argument a lot here on a.net, but I think one thing most people are leaving out of that is that a 73G will require one less flight attenda
74 KELPkid : You mean like the F-100 (Fokker, not Ford ) ? Always wondered why they phased that one out...
75 Cba : It's unfortunate, as the new E jets are phenomenal: extremely efficient on short routes and very comfortable, yet most airlines can't operate them du
76 Cubsrule : Correct. Figure $30 a block hour for the extra f/a. You get about 36 more seats, so it's less than $1 per passenger per block hour-- if they fill the
77 Eghansen : I love AA marketing. They present the 738 as if it is some sort of groundbreaking aircraft when in fact it went into service in Apr 1998 (11 years ag
78 CALPSAFltSkeds : AA has had the "cost saving" program of no 738s at ORD. With new additions, they won't be able to isolate the 738 from major hubs. So, if they wan to
79 Tommy767 : good for AA but too little too late. They make it seem that the new 738s are some sort of "environment saving grace" for AA with less emission and bet
80 AADEN : I'm curious I was under the impression that the 738 was old technology? I thought everyone was waiting for the next gen technology with composite fram
81 LTBEWR : Is this going to be the new 'When is NW going to get rid of their DC-9's' thread? I would assume AA will keep the MD-80's as long as they are financia
82 PITIngres : They aren't. All of the new 738's that AA are getting are brand new. AA needs aircraft now, not 10 or 15 or 20 years from now. Sometimes you can't wa
83 QQflyboy : The bins on the new 738s are indeed larger than the bins on the current fleet of 738s. The bin doors, primarily, were redesigned by Boeing to allow m
84 QQflyboy : There's a lot of speculation on here of what the numbers will look like 10 years from now in terms of 738s vs. MD-80s. Once piece of info AA has put o
85 Bahadir : There is nothing preventing AA calling Embraer and ordering 100 E-190s. They can get them pretty fast as well.. as long as they fly them under AA, no
86 AJMIA : I agree. I can easily read or listen to music and keep myself entertained on the longest flight, but it is nice to have a seat back video screen as a
87 Bahadir : Paid $200 for upgrade to Econ Plus on United roundtrip all the way to LHR. They have been able to use that product line to generate ancillary income
88 Cubsrule : They have- it's something that, by all public indications, works pretty well for them. It makes me wonder why others in this country don't try it.
89 Stillageek : The problem is the pay rate at AA would be very high with a starting wage of at least $145/hr (the lowest paid Captain at AA must be paid more than t
90 Cubsrule : It's really that rule that is at the heart of the problem. It'll be interesting to see if the union has some flexibility with it-- I don't see the po
91 Bahadir : Well, AA was operating F100s before 2001. They can bring back the 100 seat rate. I am sorry but we have seen the WalMartization of the airline indust
92 1337Delta764 : Well, the conditions of DL's pilot union states that any aircraft with over 76 seats shall be flown by mainline pilots. For the E-175 and CRJ-900, DL
93 SlimShady : Heh, it kills me that this is such a big concept for AA to announce this and creating a "competitive advantage". I dont have time to read every post a
94 KELPkid : The F100's lasted into mid-2003, IIRC....
95 727LOVER : So, did we get a #? AMEN I don't think STL has been discussed. What aircraft does STL get?
96 Commavia : Not gonna work. It's not that easy. The payscales the mainline pilots were getting for the Fokkers back then are way out of line with what would be c
97 Brilondon : I noticed on my last flight with IFE on AA to HNL that only about 20% of the passengers were actually watching the movie. On the last tip to LHR I wo
98 American 767 : The last Fokker 100 was retired in the fall of 2004. STL sees MD-80's for mainline flights and ERJ's for American Eagle flights. I'm not surprised ST
99 Stillageek : There was a recent decision by an arbitrator which ruled that American Eagle can operate 22 additional CRJ700s. The initial allotment was 50. Only 25
100 Moman : You don't know what you are talking about. TWA aircraft usage has nothing to do with the aircraft that AA operates in STL today. Based on your logic,
101 Commavia : I wouldn't be so sure of that. It's possible, but I highly doubt that all 18 of the daily ORD-LGA flights will be 737 by next year, for several reaso
102 Viscount724 : Swissair and Austrian were the joint MD-80 launch customers in 1977 and first operators in 1980. AA didn't order their first MD-80s until late 1982.
103 Cubsrule : STL actually sees a fairly high percentage of 752s. Of the ~40 mainline flights in the current weekday schedule, 11 are on 752s. 3x DFW 1x LAX 2x MIA
104 American 767 : True, but when American took delivery of its first 737-800 back in 1999, TWA was still taking delivery of MD-80's. Boeing (ex-Mc Donnell Douglas) was
105 Commavia : Agreed. I expect that DFW-LGA will go all-737 before ORD-LGA.
106 AJMIA : But if AA added 100 seat aircraft to the fleet instead of replacing 737 and S80s with them then the pilots who would be flying them would either be n
107 QQflyboy : You have a point, and one I've considered as well. My guess is the concern would be the 100 seat a/c would replace, not supplement, some MD-80/738 fl
108 TrijetsRMissed : I understand that, but in the context of the 737 classic vs MD-80 series, the 734 and MD-88 are most comparable in size and timeframe of EIS. And whi
109 SirOmega : I keep seeing ORD-west coast discussed, but no one has mentioned LAS. I would think at 3 hrs it would be a candidate for 738s. The power plugs would b
110 September11 : Don't forget LAX-BNA M80
111 AABB777 : This is operated with a B738.
112 Cubsrule : ORD-LAS is 1316 nm, so it's the longest route I didn't mention on my list in Reply 28.
113 Commavia : It's not just a candidate. It's a confirmed candidate. One of the four daily ORD-LAS flights goes 737 on 1 May, it shifts to another of the 4 daily f
114 LMP737 : With the slow pace of sales for both the C-Series and MRJ I would not be to surprised if either one were willing to give big discounts in order to si
115 Commavia : Very true, although, if they were able to get somewhat competitive pilot payscales on a new 75-100-seat aircraft, it may well be worth it to them, si
116 727LOVER : Does AA still send MD-80s to SNA? Are the ORD-LGA runs on special seating MD-80s? Thought I read that somewhere.
117 Commavia : Nope. All 737s, 757s and Embraers nowadays. Not sure what you mean by "special seating" MD80s. ORD-LGA gets the same MD80s that flow through the rest
118 N62NA : I must be one of the few who actually enjoy being in the last 5 rows of the MD80... You get to hear how the engines sound in various phases of the fl
119 TrijetsRMissed : Not exactly west coast, but PHX and TUS also receive MD-80 service from ORD. Maybe in time, PHX will get the 738. A discount is conceivable, but a st
120 SirOmega : Sweet. Thanks for the info Commavia!
121 Cubsrule : By 4 August, the following will see increased 738 flying (this list may or may not be exhaustive, although I think I found all of the ORD stuff-- the
122 Eghansen : I don't think that is quite correct. It is true that the A320-100 was not as well received as the A320-200. But the -100 went into airline service in
123 Cubsrule : I found a couple more routes... Effective June 11, ORD-FLL goes from 1x M80, 1x 738 to 1x 752. That 752 changes to a 738 on August 1. Both ORD-TPA fl
124 Ebs757 : Does anyone know if the new 738s will be strictly used through ord? Mom is bidding on them as fa
125 777STL : For the moment yes, the new 738s are exclusive to ORD-xxx routes. I saw one of them yesterday at ORD - sharp looking planes when they're new.
126 TrijetsRMissed : Airbus only built 21 of them for a reason. Avionics aside, the aircraft was not all that capable. Furthermore, updates have been made to the A320-200
127 RB211 : What will happen to the markets where the MD-80's fit the niche nicely. The 738 is a slightly bigger aircraft, so my question is in the markets where
128 PGNCS : That's why you always bring your ear plugs! How've you been Trijets? The obvious comparison is the 737-100, which was quickly supplanted by the 737-2
129 Eghansen : Whether the A320-100 was capable or not is immaterial. It was replaced by the A320-200 only 3 months later. The first -200 went into airline service
130 Cubsrule : The 73G was "born" in November, 1993, when Boeing's BoD authorized the programme and WN ordered them. United took its first 320 in November, 1993. No
131 TrijetsRMissed : And thank god I did on my last ORD-TUS flight! Aside from a recent RIF, I'm hangin in. How you doing? Good call. I don't have the exact numbers, but
132 American 767 : Indeed, the MD-80 was an oddball in NW fleet. They were supposed to get 14 of them from Republic with whom they merged in 1986 but they got only 8 of
133 Bmacleod : So this will be a gradual phaseout since AA has no where near the number of 738s needed to replace the MD-80/88s? Hopefully the market will improve by
134 777STL : Yes, it's a bit of both. It's a gradual phaseout as you won't be seeing the MD80s all leave in a relatively short period of time. The MD80s aren't be
135 Viscount724 : The 731 and 732 aren't the same situation as the A320-100/200. The 731 and 732 were essentially identical except for the fuselage length and were pro
136 TrijetsRMissed : What happened to the other six aircraft? Were they to be delivered to Republic prior to the merger that NW never picked up? That's true. NW was one o
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