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777Fs For China Southern - Off To The Desert  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9601 posts, RR: 69
Posted (5 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 22159 times:
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Wow.

Boeing is ferrying both 777Fs from PAE to MZJ today.

Not good  Sad

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10365 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 22150 times:

I thought so from the first time I saw a photo of them, halfpainted as they were and still are.

But why should the 777 be the only type not affected by the crisis? The question is, when will they be joined by the aging, high-cycled pax 772 of the same airline which are up for sale since last summer.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 22130 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Wow.

Boeing is ferrying both 777Fs from PAE to MZJ today.

Not good

Well they did this before with Southwest 737's.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21417 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 22031 times:

The good thing about the 77F is that there is pretty much one configuration no matter who ordered it, so if Fedex is really interested in grounding MD10s and taking 777Fs sooner, it would be mostly a matter of paperwork.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 22008 times:

This is not unusual. Lots of new aircraft have done this and then been put into service either with the original airline or with someone else. China and others have been making comments that the bottom of the recession is in sight and the upswing is starting. One of the signs that it is true will be a return to better volumes of cargo out of China. If Chinese airlines restart orders or bring the new aircraft into service you will know that the Chinese economy is truly rebounding and it isn't just a government statement.

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9601 posts, RR: 69
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 21870 times:
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Of course it is nothing new. Those of us who have been around can remember after the first Gulf War Boeing sent brand new 747s and 767s for Air Canada straight to the desert, and MD used to do the same.

However - it is the first time it has happened recently, hence my post.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 21826 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Boeing is ferrying both 777Fs from PAE to MZJ today.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 2):
Well they did this before with Southwest 737's.

And AF's B744 F-GITG back in Jan. 1993 ... This aircraft was never taken up by AF and sold to Royal Air Maroc in Oct. 1993 (now CN-RGA).


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12430 posts, RR: 100
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21596 times:
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Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Wow.

Boeing is ferrying both 777Fs from PAE to MZJ today.

Wow is right. While this is not unique, it was very news worthy when it happened before as it is now.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):

The good thing about the 77F is that there is pretty much one configuration no matter who ordered it, so if Fedex is really interested in grounding MD10s and taking 777Fs sooner, it would be mostly a matter of paperwork.

I had not thought about the one configuration of 77F's... Last I looked, the overhead crew rest lavatory in the pax 77L was optional. Is it standard in the 77F? Do they have any galley? Since the pax crew rests were configurable, I would assume the 77F's were also? Any links to photos or floorplans of the 77F's crew rest is appreciated.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9601 posts, RR: 69
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21553 times:
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Both are wearing N- regs. You will have to check out this excellent website for more info:

http://paineairport.com/kpae.htm


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21502 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 6):
And AF's B744 F-GITG back in Jan. 1993 ... This aircraft was never taken up by AF

Why was that?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21417 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21484 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 7):
I had not thought about the one configuration of 77F's... Last I looked, the overhead crew rest lavatory in the pax 77L was optional. Is it standard in the 77F? Do they have any galley? Since the pax crew rests were configurable, I would assume the 77F's were also? Any links to photos or floorplans of the 77F's crew rest is appreciated.

I don't know about that part of it. But I assume that whatever is available is completely removable or can be retrofit without much issue.

I was thinking more of one engine type, one cockpit configuration, things like that.

When dealing with white tailing an A330, for example there are multiple engine choices and other options that make the aircraft more specific to the carrier who ordered it.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21465 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 7):
Wow is right.

Huge news, IMO. Does this mean that they are being stored for the customer, as in China Southern paid for them, but can't use them, or they are white tails?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21395 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 9):
Why was that?

AF was in a very bad situation and on the edge of bankruptcy at that time. No need of another new B744 and no money to pay for it ...


User currently offlineSancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 21351 times:

When I used to work at ORD, we handled CZ cargo and they couldn't wait for the 777LRF, their 744ERF's are horrid. The PDU's don't work and as far as I know, their leases are due to expire as the first batch of 777LRF's were to be delivered. And IIRC, they had purchased additional slots to fly 13 flights a week, 2X Mon-Sat. and 1 flight on Sun as well as more slots for JFK, DFW, and IAH. Also, off topic, I still keep up with friends that are employed by PO and CV respectively, the 2 launch customers for the 748F and PO, which owns Atlas, were hoping to have their 748f's in time to start phasing out 742f's and 743f's late Q3 this year, and as such, not going to happen. And I heard somewhere that BR was ordering 777LRF's to replace 744BCF's and MD11F's. Can anyone confirm that or is that purely heresay? How long would it take for CZ's frames to be repainted into FX's livery? Shouldn't be too hard?


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10365 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 21042 times:



Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 13):
they couldn't wait for the 777LRF, their 744ERF's are horrid.

Hard to believe. These aircraft are just 5 or 6 years old and built to fly 30 years and more as freighters. If the two 744Fs are "horrid", their, in comparison, very old 772s must be a nightmare.


User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 20914 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
Huge news, IMO. Does this mean that they are being stored for the customer, as in China Southern paid for them, but can't use them, or they are white tails?

Well, if they were real white tails, Boeing wouldn't have bothered to put the CZ paint scheme on it, so I suppose CZ decided at the last moment not to take them. And I wouldn't be surprised if CZ has already paid most terms, only the last one (upon delivery) open. Where I work, that means 90% must have been paid... Not sure if that % also applies in the aviation world.

The test 77F, originally destined for AF, and the final 2 744F's destined for Load Air apparently are real white tails, and I expect them to follow CZ's 77F's soon  Sad



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT3,ATP,E90,F50/70,M11,
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 20863 times:
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Well I expect their must be some type of insurance coverage or something in place for Boeing so it's not like they're sitting on two planes they have generated no significant revenue from.

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10365 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 20837 times:



Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 15):
The test 77F, originally destined for AF, and the final 2 744F's destined for Load Air apparently are real white tails, and I expect them to follow CZ's 77F's soon

All in all the storage of new aircarft will only be temporary, so is nothing worrying. In the early 90s and in 97/98 during the Asian crisis also some brandnew aircarft spent some time in the desert. I would really like to know who will get the Loadair 744Fs.
I wonder why AF rejected its first 777F? No need for it? No money? Change of fleet plan?
Back in 93 they were also about to take the very first 744F, and didnt take it due to financial problems. It went to Cargolux in the end.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12430 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 20836 times:
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Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8):
Both are wearing N- regs. You will have to check out this excellent website for more info:

That has one going hmmm...(on the N-registrations)  scratchchin  Oh, I wasn't able to find the picture of the two aircraft under discussion.  Sad

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
I was thinking more of one engine type, one cockpit configuration, things like that.

That you are correct.  spin  But if its just a 'paperwork' issue, it implies its ready to just switch fleets. Even if there are no backup coffee pots.  hyper 

You did bring up an excellent point. How much of the 777F is standardized? I'm curious as I do not know.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
When dealing with white tailing an A330, for example there are multiple engine choices and other options that make the aircraft more specific to the carrier who ordered it.

No doubt there. Not to mention later models are more capable than early models while the 777F is so new, its 'one size fits all.'

Or to paraphrase a bad joke:
"Would you like GE-90's with that?"  duck 

Quoting Sancho99504 (Reply 13):
How long would it take for CZ's frames to be repainted into FX's livery? Shouldn't be too hard?

If they were parked at VCV, less than 10 calander days.  spin 
Does MZJ have a paint shop?

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
Does this mean that they are being stored for the customer, as in China Southern paid for them, but can't use them, or they are white tails?

You ask a good question. Since you quoted me, I'll just state 'I do not know.' The N-registration has me wondering... (Yes, I saw the LAN cargo had an N-registration too... So it could just be the lessor.)

So the question remains, who is paying to park all of that expensive beer can?  spit 

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 20743 times:



Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 15):
Well, if they were real white tails, Boeing wouldn't have bothered to put the CZ paint scheme on it, so I suppose CZ decided at the last moment not to take them. And I wouldn't be surprised if CZ has already paid most terms, only the last one (upon delivery) open. Where I work, that means 90% must have been paid... Not sure if that % also applies in the aviation world.

In Boeing contracts, final payment is due before it goes into the paint shop.



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User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12430 posts, RR: 100
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 20693 times:
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Quoting EBGARN (Reply 19):
In Boeing contracts, final payment is due before it goes into the paint shop.

Really? If I was an airline this would not make me happy. What's to accelerate time through the paint shop? What about all the customer inspections, some of which occur right before delivery? My impression (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that the final payment occurs when the maintenance log is handed over to the airline.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 20575 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
Really? If I was an airline this would not make me happy. What's to accelerate time through the paint shop? What about all the customer inspections, some of which occur right before delivery? My impression (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that the final payment occurs when the maintenance log is handed over to the airline.

I got the info while visiting Everett last July. Usually, the final payment is the final 10%. This is because Boeing doesn't want painted AC's which ends up not being taken by the customer. Of course, it is possible for an airline to have a special arrangement of some kind, but I was told this was the default procedure.



A306,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/6,A380,B717,B727,B737,B744,B752/3,B763,B772/3/W,C-130,AN26,CRJ900,Il62,DC-8/9/10,MD80's,BaeR
User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 20297 times:
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Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
Really? If I was an airline this would not make me happy. What's to accelerate time through the paint shop? What about all the customer inspections, some of which occur right before delivery? My impression (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that the final payment occurs when the maintenance log is handed over to the airline.

Lightsaber

There is no need to accelerate time through the paintshop. The aircraft coming down the assembly line will ensure that. The time it takes to paint an aircraft is pretty standard. The customer has been with the aircraft from the beginning, so final inspections generally only find fit and finish items.


User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 20129 times:

both aircraft on flightaware heading to MZJ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE16
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE17


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 19787 times:
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The planes also take at least one flight test prior to painting so if there were any issues left, they'd show up then, I imagine.

25 YULWinterSkies : And AC's brand new A345s in Chateauroux (France) in 2003/04 when they close to bankruptcy, and a few AF's 332s in the same time, although AF was not
26 MotorHussy : At the rate that factories are closing down in the south of China currently, this is no surprise. People just can't afford to buy like they used to an
27 Lumberton : The international market for exports has "slowed down" somewhat as well....
28 Scouseflyer : I guess that this means that we're very unlikely to be seeing a CZ A380 anytime soon?
29 Ikramerica : I thought this was already a given, and the CZ A380 was not being finished in order? Or was I mistaken on that...
30 Clickhappy : This is incorrect. The majority of Boeing twin-aisle aircraft are painted before they fly. It also used to be true in Renton, until they shifted the
31 WestWing : Is it certain that the AF 777F (F-GUOA) and the two LoadAir 7744Fs are also going into storage?
32 Post contains links and images Sralfalo : must have been this one View Large View MediumPhoto © T.Laurent
33 Scouseflyer : You are correct in that MSNs later than the first CZ bird are well along to being delivered, but there was a recent rumour that one of the forthcomin
34 Mascmo : Isn't there a list of carriers waiting for the 77F??? Why don't they just give them to whoever is next in line to receive one?
35 N1786b : Story on Bloomberg: China Southern Delays A380s, 787s, Saving $1 Billion (Update1) Share | Email | Print | A A A By Neil Denslow April 15 (Bloomberg)
36 A342 : And when did they resume taking new 744s? IIRC AF has some relatively new models, from the late 90s?
37 FlySSC : Considering the current situation, particularly in the Cargo activities, AF has, like many other airlines, delayed the delivery of several aircraft i
38 Ikramerica : This is a confirmation, but from what I gathered from the A380 production threads, Airbus wasn't in any hurry to build those A380s for them.
39 Sancho99504 : Hard to believe. These aircraft are just 5 or 6 years old and built to fly 30 years and more as freighters. If the two 744Fs are "horrid", their, in
40 NA : If they can ruin a 744F in short time, they´ll do the same to a 777F as well, so it doesnt make any difference.
41 Sancho99504 : I suppose. I wonder if they take care of the leased birds in the same manner? Can anyone who has dealt with CZ pax flight below wing elaborate?
42 JoeCanuck : Where does Airbus store their planes?
43 GARUDAROD : I wonder if they would consider Wet leasing them out, ala NCA with their latest 2 B744Fs. I'm sure there would be some airline somewhere that could us
44 Trex8 : isn't the latest IB A346 just sitting in Toulouse
45 Post contains links and images Virginblue4 : Yes it is. View Large View MediumPhoto © T.Laurent Jordan
46 Post contains links Stitch : The Seattle Times this morning ran an article in their business section on Boeing having to park three 77Fs (two for CZ and one for AF), the two Load
47 Post contains links TropicBird : LoadAir is in trouble.. AerCap takes control of AerVenture, as LoadAir fails to make payments http://www.airfinancejournal.com/Art...oadAir-fails-to-m
48 Asiaflyer : In times like these, I think Boeing has to share some of the pain with the airlines. It is now the customer - supplier relationship is tested.
49 Lightsaber : I wondered how FlyDubai was able to buy 738's so quickly... Does Boeing have a choice? Between a few hundred thousand dollars of lost revenue or a ba
50 Stitch : List for a 747-400 family freighter varies between $238 and $268 million and the 777 Freighter lists for between $253 and $261 million per Boeing's w
51 Sancho99504 : Are there any Airbus orders from CZ that were deferred as well to make up the rest of $1B savings?
52 Scouseflyer : Yes they have 5 A380s which have also been pushed back
53 Ikramerica : That's more than a billion right there. 5 A380s + 20 engines, 2 77Fs + 4 engines.
54 Stitch : Was CZ funding these planes out of their own cash? Or did they have financing lined up? If the latter, maybe they would have spent a billion in loan
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