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Embraer 195 - Why Unpopular?  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 26212 times:

We know that the Embraer 170 and 190 have been quite successful models for Embraer, and more recently, orders for the Embraer 175 have began to pick up. However, the Embraer 195 remains quite unpopular.

What is the real reason for the Embraer 195's low popularity? I know it has less range than the Embraer 190, however, I don't know if that is the real reason.


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42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21420 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 26099 times:

My guess would be various scope clauses at various airlines combined with the need for 3 flight attendants in most configurations. It's barely over 100 seats with a 2-class cabin, but would incur the crew costs of a mainline aircraft with 149 seats...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 26031 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
My guess would be various scope clauses at various airlines combined with the need for 3 flight attendants in most configurations.

That fact is the major thing that almost completely precludes it from serving with American carriers. The same factor has made the 190 somewhat less popular over here too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAVION826 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 25877 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
That fact is the major thing that almost completely precludes it from serving with American carriers. The same factor has made the 190 somewhat less popular over here too.

To expand a little....nearly all major airlines using the E-170/175 have outsourced it to various regional airlines. If these major airlines decide they want to offer the E-190, they have to fly it on the mainline certificate (in most cases) due to scope clauses. This makes it MUCH more expensive to operate. Take a look at US Airways. Their E-170/175 aircraft are flown by Republic Airways, while the E-190 is flown by US Airways itself.

Much of the reason the E-170 is farmed out to regionals is because since it is replacing 737-type flying, the mainline pilots want a 737 pay scale for the airplane. This would make it unprofitable to operate. That is the case at United Airlines. Huge fuss being made about the E-170 over there. Seemingly the CRJ-700 flies under the radar a little bit. Many feel it is because the E-170 "looks like" a 737, therefore it is mainline worthy, or because CRJ is "called" a regional jet. Who knows. My seniority dictates I spend most of my time on the CRJ 200. No questions there!


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 25858 times:

Well, the E-190 is quite popular outside the U.S.. However, the E-195 doesn't seem to be popular anywhere.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 792 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25476 times:

I actually posed this same question last year. Here's the thread:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4145735/

We never did come up with much of an answer then, either, but speculated along some of the same lines as here. FlyBE is the only carrier that comes to mind that operates the 195 in any numbers.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11574 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25416 times:

FlyBe has 14, Royal Jordanian has 7, and there are a bunch on order for LH which will be split between Air Dolomiti and Swiss. I don't think we'll see many large fleets of this aircraft, but instead lots of smaller ones - it's the ideal aircraft to replace 737-200s or -300s at airlines where they only have one or two large aircraft, Montenegro Airlines have already gone down this path and I expect many others to follow.


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSkyone From Mexico, joined Feb 2001, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 22834 times:

I was reading yesterday in Airliners Magazine that Air Europa ordered a few E195´s and that they have 122 seats on them. If this is true, then there you have it. The solution is to put tons of seat on it in order to have 3 flight atendants justify that 3rd one. The E190 is popular because of that. Everyone uses it with 100 or less seats and only has to have 2 flight atendants.

Many airlines like Aeromexico here in Mexico use the E190 on a 99 or 100 seat layout including business class and they have it under their regional (Connect) in order maybe to save on 1 flight atendant. But if you are to use an E195 instead of an E190 in full coach with 122, then you have a perfect sustitute to the 737-200/300/500/600 or the A318 and maybe even cheaper to operate. Although remember Easyjet with its A319 with 4 wing emergency doors. They ended up taking away the 4th flight atendant and going back to 150 seats or less.

What do you think?


User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 21088 times:

Another thing the E195s are new, and cost of leasing one is certainly higher then keeping an older 737-500 or similar jets.

KS/codeshare



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User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7031 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20927 times:



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
LH which will be split between Air Dolomiti and Swiss.

Swiss won´t get any EJets, Cityline, Air Dolimiti and Augsburg are the ones getting the EJet.
Swiss is getting the CSeries.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20871 times:
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Quoting Skyone (Reply 7):
They ended up taking away the 4th flight atendant and going back to 150 seats or less.

I heard that EZY abandoned the idea and kept 156 seats and four FAs.

The E195 has picked up a few orders in Europe, where airlines are less manic about having 50 pax for every FA. European airlines offer either/or complimentary service and buy-on-board and need an extra pair of hands to get the inflight product served before landing.

Brazilian start-up Azul has 36 or 76 x E195 on order, so it's not doing too bad either.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5082 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20693 times:



Quoting Skyone (Reply 7):
The E190 is popular because of that. Everyone uses it with 100 or less seats and only has to have 2 flight atendants.

Except in Australia  Sad

We still have a rule of 1 FA for 36 pax. So Virgin Blue with their 78 seat E170 require 3 FA's!


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1721 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20466 times:



Quoting Skyone (Reply 7):
was reading yesterday in Airliners Magazine that Air Europa ordered a few E195´s and that they have 122 seats on them. If this is true, then there you have it

Actually they were ordered to form a separate, lower cost, airline to be named Universal. The Air Europa pilots complained and it was decided first that they would sell them (the first one in Universal colours was sold) but finally they were integrated in UX network.

They're now flying routes the 738 has become too big for.


User currently offlineThestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19781 times:

I was looking into the E-Jets just recently and came up with the exact same question.

Doing a it of research I've found the exact numbers of deliveries, orders and options of all the 4 E-Jets as of December 31, 2008 from Embraer itself

Deliveries

E-170: 148
E-175: 114
E-190: 201
E-195: 27

Orders

E-170: 193
E-175: 134
E-190: 438
E-195: 111

Options

E-170: 93
E-175: 173
E-190: 466
E-195: 78


So as you can see only 27 E-195's have been built and delivered compared to 201 E-190's, a massive difference of almost 1:8.

By looking at these numbers I predict that about 150 to 200 E-195's will be built in total (unless there's a sudden unseen surge in demand) whereas the E-190 looks like it will easily surpass 1,000 frames, by far the most popular of all the E-jets.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11574 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19081 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
Swiss won´t get any EJets, Cityline, Air Dolimiti and Augsburg are the ones getting the EJet.
Swiss is getting the CSeries.

Ah, thanks for the correction - they would have both looked good in the Swiss livery  yes 



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineAlianza From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 18161 times:



Quoting Thestooges (Reply 13):
Doing a it of research I've found the exact numbers of deliveries, orders and options of all the 4 E-Jets as of December 31, 2008 from Embraer itself

Hey Stooges, thanks for your research figures!

Is there a web url to consolidated info on the safety record of E-jets, CRJ's and others ? .. to research mechanical incidents/reliability of jet models (not pilot errors).


Thanks.


User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16363 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
My guess would be various scope clauses at various airlines combined with the need for 3 flight attendants in most configurations. It's barely over 100 seats with a 2-class cabin, but would incur the crew costs of a mainline aircraft with 149 seats...

 checkmark 

I think you hit the nail on the head. For ten seats your adding a flight attendant.
Several operators have taken their smaller 37's and Buses to 150 in order to cut one flight attendant.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16341 times:



Quoting 7673mech (Reply 16):
Several operators have taken their smaller 37's and Buses to 150 in order to cut one flight attendant.

This is why WN chose the 737-700 instead of the -800. The -800 has a CASM advantage, but that is wiped out because in WN's configuration it would require an extra FA. But for legacy carriers with a First Class section, the -800 usually makes more sense.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 14871 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 10):
Quoting Skyone (Reply 7):
They ended up taking away the 4th flight atendant and going back to 150 seats or less.

I heard that EZY abandoned the idea and kept 156 seats and four FAs.

Yeah, they have 4 on every flight. On all my U2 flights there has been 4, no matter the load (from 78 on PRG - BRS to 156 on BRS - MAD)

The important thing is that they said the 4th FA was paid for and more by the extra 6 passengers, therefore making it viable. If an extra FA can be made up by 6 passengers, why not a 3rd for an extra 22? Also, as well as being a good replacement for A318 + 732/5/6, E195 is a great replacement for BAe 146/ARJ, similar size and range, similar takeoff/landing stats, but the E195 is faster. That is one reason why it would fit for carriers like Flybe, however I don't know of any other airlines which were heavily reliant of BAe146 or ARJ and use it as a "Mainline" aircraft in its own right.

[Edited 2009-04-16 15:27:49]

[Edited 2009-04-16 15:33:08]


AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21420 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 14766 times:



Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 18):
Yeah, they have 4 on every flight. On all my U2 flights there has been 4, no matter the load (from 78 on PRG - BRS to 156 on BRS - MAD)

It goes by number of seats, not load. Most airlines have found that the added revenue of those 6 seats under 100% loads isn't worth the cost of carrying a 4th F/A on every flight, when most of the time, loads are under 150 seats anyway.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMcr From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14300 times:
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Quoting Skyone (Reply 7):
I was reading yesterday in Airliners Magazine that Air Europa ordered a few E195´s and that they have 122 seats on them. If this is true, then there you have it. The solution is to put tons of seat on it in order to have 3 flight atendants justify that 3rd one. The E190 is popular because of that. Everyone uses it with 100 or less seats and only has to have 2 flight atendants.

It's true - I was on their first 195 yesterday (EC-KRJ, from ORY to MAD) and there's a nice piece in their inflight magazine about the new plane and how they are introducing it. Yes they ordered 11 (two have been delivered so far) and they're being fitted out with 122 seats.

As a passenger it was a very pleasant plane to fly on. I hope they become a lot more common!


User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 14145 times:

So it seems to be pretty well established that the 195 is unpopular because it requires an extra flight attendant. Now my question is why was it built in the first place? I'm sure they knew before they designed it that it would require an extra flight attendant.
I guess that the 100 or so they've sold cover the costs of the stretch, but how many of those orders would have gone to the 190 if the 195 didn't exist? I know there's no way to know the answer to that one, just an interesting thought.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15503 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day ago) and read 14131 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 21):
Now my question is why was it built in the first place?

Well, some airlines may actually need the capacity. Plus, for smaller carriers, the cost of an extra flight attendant may be offset by savings from fleet commonality. Probably the biggest reason though, is that the stretch allows airlines to have a decent first/business class section and not give up any seats in total.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineLamox From Norway, joined Oct 2008, 41 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14032 times:

Seems quite strange to me that the difference in pilot cost should be a major issue regarding whether or not to buy a E195. Pilot costs is appr 6-8% of the total cost of operating an aircraft, so the difference between regional or main salary would probably make a 1-2% differenc in costs.

Anyway; a very north american problem - in the rest of the world it would not be an issue at all.



none
User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 13972 times:



Quoting Lamox (Reply 23):
Anyway; a very north american problem - in the rest of the world it would not be an issue at all.

However apart from in europe is has a problem in its range, which is shorter than the 190. Unless the customer specifically wants a larger aircraft or better CASM, they would choose the cheaper, more capable 190 every time. It is for the 10% of user who want the extra capacity for more seats or want more room for business and first, keeping passenger numbers as close to 100 as possible, but it could also be used in a similar way to the 753 compared to the 752, the E195 could find its place flying to high demand, low yield destinations in high density configuration over short distances - e.g. flights from northern europe to the Mediterranean. If it was not for the finanical situation we are in now, I could see orders from airlines like USA 3000, Allegiant, etc.



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
25 Ikramerica : Nope. If a 5 year mainline pilot were flying the plane, the costs could be 3x that of a two year regional pilot. Then there are some F/A unions that
26 Lamox : Do you really mean that a major pilot in the US would have 300% over the salary of a regional pilot???? That is just INSANE - in Europe, the differen
27 BMI727 : Or they could have a larger F class section to bring in more revenue without the extra FA and only a marginal hit in CASM. I don't know if the differ
28 Ikramerica : Maybe, but then you have to fill that. Most carriers have 6-8 F seats on a 110 seat aircraft. In 2-class the E195 at 38" pitch and 31" pitch holds 8/
29 Viscount724 : AC's E190s are 9/84, total 93, with two lavs.
30 BMI727 : That is about what I thought too. I was never thinking that they could be used as the backbone of a fleet but rather a subfleet dedicated to routes w
31 PlymSpotter : It can't handle short runways, the 190 will be certified for LCY, but not the 195 and really the 146 similarities stop with the 190. There are a few;
32 Ikramerica : They must be giving 32" pitch in Y instead of 31".
33 EXTspotter : I am not so sure about that, Ryanair has said similar things in the past, and then just ordered more 738s. One other thing that I wouldn't be sure ab
34 PlymSpotter : Which is why Airbus publicly announced they would not be involved in a MOL bargaining war - it just makes me think that Ryanair are going to need som
35 LongHauler : Not in Canada. Here, it is one F/A per 40 passengers, not 40 seats. (For all except the CL-65 which is operating under a let.) So, the E190 would hav
36 LipeGIG : I think mostly opinions bring the right matters, in the USA the fact that it's too small to mainline operators and too big to regional ones. In other
37 Brilondon : I have flown with AC on their E-jets. Is there a huge difference apart from the size in the E190 compared to the E195? i quite enjoyed the smaller mo
38 Ikramerica : Not if it has 110 seats. Think of it this way: an E195 is the type of plane to do four turns in a row of under 2 hours, meaning that the same crew ma
39 LongHauler : Maybe I am missing your point, but the 93 seat E190 would carry the same number of Flight Attendants as the 110 seat E195 ... three. Only our 73 seat
40 Viscount724 : 33" pitch in Y on AC E190s, 38" in business class (eqiuvalent to US carrier first class).
41 Ikramerica : I missed your point. I thought your point was about the difference between seats and pax booked, not that Canada had a 40 passenger increment rather
42 LongHauler : Looking at this thread I see some valid points. But I have always thought the E170-195 series to fill an unusual niche. That is, when an airline requi
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