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Pan Am 707/DC-8 Routes?  
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12792 times:

From about 1960 to 1968 Pan Am operated "Intercontinental" models of both the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8. Unfortunately, their timetables from these years do not specify which type was operated on their various worldwide routes, refrerring to both types simply as "JET" denoting "Boeing Intercontinental Jet Clipper or Douglas DC-8 Jet Clipper." Therefore, my question is...

...does anyone know which routes tended to see Pan Am's 707s and to which routes their DC-8s were typically assigned? Or, during the years the two types served side-by-side with Pan Am, was either type as likely as the other to be seen operating any given longhaul route?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLVTMB From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12763 times:

I believe they used the 707s on the Latin America routes.

MB


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12720 times:



Quoting LVTMB (Reply 1):
I believe they used the 707s on the Latin America routes.

DC-8s were also used to Latin America, at least on the Pan Am/Panagra interchange flights. One of those at LIM below. Note the Panagra logo near the forward door. Technically it was a Panagra flight using their PG code.


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User currently offlineTAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12619 times:

Not sure about the late 60's, but in the early 70's DL operated an interchange with PA from ATL to IAD and I think JFK continuing on to LHR and perhaps FRA.

Maybe some older Pan Am folks can help me out her on that. But otherwise PA used 707's virtually worldwide. Remember at the peak PA operated over 100 707's and just the original 20 DC-8's.

Also, IIRC, I think a few of those DC-8-33's were sold to UA. I just don't remember for sure.

hope this helps.


User currently offlineRidgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12607 times:

I know that in 1975 PA operated a 707 from SEA to FAI

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12558 times:



Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 3):
Also, IIRC, I think a few of those DC-8-33's were sold to UA. I just don't remember for sure.

8 went to UA and 7 to DL, and a few to various other carriers. Two of the PA DC-8s below in their first two liveries.


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User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12536 times:



Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 3):
Remember at the peak PA operated over 100 707's and just the original 20 DC-8's.

Pan Am ordered 25 DC-8-32s (later converted to -33s?) of which they took 19. Two went to their associate Panair do Brasil, with 4 going to Panagra in which Pan Am had 50% ownership until 1967 when Panagra was absorbed into Braniff who in turn, for a short time, operated some of the DC-8-32s/-33s originally ordered by Pan Am. At least one such DC-8 was repainted in the Braniff "jelly bean" scheme... in none other than the Panagra Green variation.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12406 times:

Pan Am in Oslo, Norway 1972. The " Jet Clipper Gladiator ":


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User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8494 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12182 times:
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Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 3):
Not sure about the late 60's, but in the early 70's DL operated an interchange with PA from ATL to IAD and I think JFK continuing on to LHR and perhaps FRA.

The Delta/ Pan AM interchange was via IAD, Washington-Dules. From IAD to LHR, FRA etc.


User currently offlineRwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12171 times:

In 1967 I flew on Pan American DC-8s operating flights 76/77 JFK/REK/PIK/JFK. For years I thought they were 707s until I saw an interior shot of the DC-8 and remembered those seat-mounted reading lights.


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineCubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 410 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12133 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 8):
The Delta/ Pan AM interchange was via IAD, Washington-Dules. From IAD to LHR, FRA etc.

Actually, originally, the PA/DL interchange operated LHR/BWI (the old Baltimore-Washington Friendship airport) to ATL. DL crews took it over in BWI (which of course you are right....later they did move it to Dulles) and flew it to ATL. DL would then use it (wet leased I guess) on their domestic system to MSY, DAL and LAX and maybe other cities. It would return to ATL the next day and originate the interchange back to BWI (later Dulles) with the PanAm crew taking over for the flight back to LHR.


User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1954 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11947 times:

Tango-Bravo...I suggest you find yourself an OAG from that era. I can assure you that this source does differentiate the services between the two types. For example, during the 1960's, from PHL, the 707/720B's operated to the Caribbean, while the 707's also flew to LHR, while the DC-8 ran the Paris route. Look for an International edition...

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11924 times:



Quoting Crownvic (Reply 11):
Look for an International edition...

Timetable Edition OAG says "JET", as you'd expect. Don't have a QR OAG from the early 60s, but I'll bet they show JET too. Anybody got one?


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11920 times:



Quoting Cubastar (Reply 10):
originally, the PA/DL interchange operated LHR/BWI (the old Baltimore-Washington Friendship airport) to ATL. DL

Anybody got a timetable showing that?
12/63 OAG shows no PA/DL interchange

6/64 shows MSY-ATL-IAD-PHL-LHR subj to govt approval

12/64 shows MSY-ATL-IAD-LHR


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11897 times:

The 4/67 Timetable Edition OAG shows JET; the 5/67 says 707/DC8.

As for QRs, best I can do is the 8/66 North Amer, which shows mostly JET, tho the PA/NA interchange to Panama is shown as DC8.


User currently offlineSparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11873 times:
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The PA-DL interchange started May 29,1964.It operated MSY-ATL-IAD-PHL-LHR MO,SA) and Rheintalflug (Austria)">WE,SA,and MSY-ATL-IAD-PHL-Paris Orly SU,TU,TH,FR with PA DC8-30s.It was changed to PA 747s originating in ATL in 1971.In 1973 Delta and Pan Am 747s were used until the interchange ended in 1975.
Sparky


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11761 times:

By 1967 or 1968, Pan Am had sold their DC-8-32/33's to Delta and United. Delta's aircraft purchased from Pan Am continued to be used on the interchange through IAD to LHR and ORY. Delta retired theirs first after the first Arab Oil shock after the Yom Kippur war in October of 1973. I believe they were gone by January 31, 1974 being traded into Boeing on 727-232A's. United soon followed parking theirs in Denver next to the flight academy before disposing of them. Also parked on the tarmac and grass in Denver were about half the of 720-022 fleet with the old Pan Am 8's. I believe United sold a few of them and traded what wasn't sold to Boeing on their first order of 727-222A's in 1978, along with some if not all of their DC-8-21's. Delta kept the Pan Am interiors and the rows in coach were numbered from back to front. I flew on one only once on Delta from MIA to ATL with a stop in JAX. While Delta separated them in the schedule, United did not, and I believe United installed their own interiors with the five seat lounge in the rear of coach across from the coach galley. The -33's were the only non fan DC-8's that Delta operated after converting all of their Series 10's to -51's in about 1963, while United converted many of their series 10's to -20's with the same JT-4's as were on the -33's from Pan Am. Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's, but rather used the generic JET both in their own timetables and in the OAG. The only flights designated as DC-8's were those operated on the Panagra and Delta interchanges. For example, in the June 15, 1966 OAG, the Pan Am Flights to HNL from LAX and SFO, or from LAX to PTY used the JET designator, as they could be either 707-320B's, 707-320's or the DC8-33's; however, the flights from MIA to PTY that were interchange flights with PG were listed as DC-8's. Pan Am ordered 25 DC-8's and 25 707's in 1955, but some of the 25 DC-8 went to Panagra and AeroBrasil. With United, they did not designate the schedules either between the converted -52's, the delivered -52's, or the -21's and -33's; and the in some issues of the OAG, all UA DC-8 flights were designated as D8F's even though most of United's aircraft until the retirements started were JT-4 powered rather than JT-3D fan powered. United did advertise Mark IV DC-8's, their designation for the Fan Powered aircraft in 1962/1963 in order to compete with American's 707 Astrojets on transcon flights from IDL/JFK.

User currently offlineCV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11742 times:
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I remember in the late 60's Pan Am flew the DC-8 to Dusseldorf from London but I'm not sure which US city the flight originated from. Most of the flights from London to the USA and Europe at that time were 707's


SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11722 times:

I remember some B707 in BEY,EZE and ANU

Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11621 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):
Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's, but rather used the generic JET both in their own timetables and in the OAG.



Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
The 4/67 Timetable Edition OAG shows JET; the 5/67 says 707/DC8.

Anyone who looks at an OAG after 5/67 can see for himself. (Or a PA timetable, I suspect.)


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11609 times:

PA used 707's on MSY-GUA, MSY-MID as well as on multi-stop flights through Central America originating in IAH.

User currently offlineRleiro From Venezuela, joined Jan 2006, 499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days ago) and read 11590 times:

Also PA's 707's were very common in CCS in the JFK - CCS run:


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Saludos,

Roberto.



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11488 times:



Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):
Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's

Assume you're referring to the period before PA sold the DC-8s. I'm sure they used the 707 designation in timetables and OAGs in later years.

Can't remember whether PA separately identified flights operated by their nine 720Bs (mostly used to the Caribbean and Latin America due to their excellent hot/high performance) which PA acquired used from AA and LH.


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11171 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 19):
Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):
Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's, but rather used the generic JET both in their own timetables and in the OAG.



Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
The 4/67 Timetable Edition OAG shows JET; the 5/67 says 707/DC8.

Anyone who looks at an OAG after 5/67 can see for himself. (Or a PA timetable, I suspect.)

Once the DC-8's were sold, the flights were listed as 707's, but when before the 8's were sold, they used JET. I haven't seen a May 1967 OAG in 40+ years, (my dad brought them home every month from the office during that time, and I read them), but I do have a June 15, 1966 North American version and Pan Am at that time was still only using Jet. Their timetables also used the word JET with an explanation that JET was either a 707 or DC-8 Jet Clipper. I do not believe they ever distinguished between the 707-321;s, 321B/C's, 121's, 121B's, or the 720-030B's they picked up from LH.


User currently onlineNWOrientDC10 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1404 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11143 times:
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Quoting Ridgid727 (Reply 4):
I know that in 1975 PA operated a 707 from SEA to FAI

In 1973, PA also had a JFK - FAI (and reverse) 707 flight.

The 1973 SEA - FAI flight originated at PDX (reverse ended there).

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973p47.html

Good Day  Smile

Russell



Things aren't always as they seem
25 Tango-Bravo : From JFK, FAI was mainly a refueling stop on a flight that continued on to Tokyo, Osaka and Guam (reverse routing was also operated). Keep in mind th
26 WA707atMSP : By 1978, FAI-SEA-PDX had been combined with PA's SEA-PDX-HNL flight, and operated FAI-SEA-PDX-HNL, with a 747. PA suspended the entire route shortly
27 Tango-Bravo : Thank you for the info... I was surprised to find in Pan Am's June 1, 1974 timetable that their PDX-SEA-FAI flights (PA901 northbound, PA902 return,
28 DavidByrne : PA started jet services to AKL in 1965 or 66 using 707s.
29 Semsem : In 1966 TWA went on strike and I was transferred onto Pan Am from London to New York. It was a DC-8. I was a kid so I was given to one hostess to take
30 Post contains links NWOrientDC10 : Before deregulation, was Pan American restricted in some of its intra-US routes? I know that Pan American didn't have many intra-US routes and was mos
31 Timz : PA could always carry passengers from the west coast to Hawaii-- that might have been their only domestic traffic until deregulation. (They started tr
32 TVNWZ : I flew a UA DC8 from MKE>SFO non-stop back in 75 or 76. Remember taking off in a blinding snow storm. Most harrowing flight I have ever taken.
33 Tango-Bravo : Pan Am was, indeed, totally restricted from carrying pax on U.S. domestic segments prior to deregulation, with the exception of Hawaii and Alaska...
34 NWOrientDC10 : This answers my question. Thank You I'm wondering why Pan American was restricted from operating intra-US traffic. I could understand it if PA was th
35 Timz : Where?
36 Viscount724 : I'm sure PA never had 2-3 seating on 707s or DC-8s. That was very rare and in those days seating standards and pitch etc. on international routes ope
37 Post contains images Zippyjet : If I'm not mistaken, back in the late 1950's National Airlines leased 707's from PA for their JFK - MIA service. Back then JFK was Idlewild. The crews
38 Sparky35805 : National did lease 707s from Pan Am for the 1958-59 winter season as well as 1959-60.They operated along with Nationals own DC8s for a month or so in
39 WA707atMSP : This is not strictly true. In 1977, PA was allowed to carry local traffic between DTW and BOS, on flights routed DTW-BOS-LHR. DTW-BOS was the first r
40 Tango-Bravo : These years were during the time immediately prior to deregulation, when the CAB had become very generous with approving airlines' proposals for new
41 Maxpower1954 : National's IDL-MIA 707 service inaugurated Dec 10, 1958 with a Pan Am 707, flown by National pilots and F/As was the very first domestic jet service
42 BostonBeau : The Pan Am/Delta DC-8 interchange I remember was MSY-IAD-BOS-ORY. Delta had not yet absorbed Northeast Airlines, and did not serve Boston themselves y
43 Timz : When?
44 Argonaut : My wee Pan Am DC-8 contribution: In 1960, the DC-8 replaced the DC-7C on Pan Am's US--South Africa service. For at least two years, perhaps longer, DC
45 Viscount724 : Didn't the 707s stay in PA livery during that lease? I've always considered that service as a little less than full normal domestic service for that
46 Sparky35805 : The PA 707s were in full Pan Am colors.All 707-121s were used.Pan Am used the aircraft at the same time.They were opereted as PA flights into IDL and
47 Post contains links Maxpower1954 : Sparky has got his facts right, here's some more information. National Airlines was next to last of the traditional U.S. majors (only Northeast was sm
48 Post contains links Milesrich : Here is a link to the story of the crash of NA 2511, the DC-6B flight that replaced NA 601 after the Pan Am 707 experienced a broken windshield. http:
49 Tango-Bravo : From Pan Am's August 1-31, 1963, timetable their 'milk run' from New York to Johannesburg was flight 150, operated Tuesday only, with JET equipment;
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