Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3777 posts, RR: 30 Posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10794 times:
From about 1960 to 1968 Pan Am operated "Intercontinental" models of both the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8. Unfortunately, their timetables from these years do not specify which type was operated on their various worldwide routes, refrerring to both types simply as "JET" denoting "Boeing Intercontinental Jet Clipper or Douglas DC-8 Jet Clipper." Therefore, my question is...
...does anyone know which routes tended to see Pan Am's 707s and to which routes their DC-8s were typically assigned? Or, during the years the two types served side-by-side with Pan Am, was either type as likely as the other to be seen operating any given longhaul route?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23154 posts, RR: 23 Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10722 times:
Quoting LVTMB (Reply 1): I believe they used the 707s on the Latin America routes.
DC-8s were also used to Latin America, at least on the Pan Am/Panagra interchange flights. One of those at LIM below. Note the Panagra logo near the forward door. Technically it was a Panagra flight using their PG code.
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3777 posts, RR: 30 Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10538 times:
Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 3): Remember at the peak PA operated over 100 707's and just the original 20 DC-8's.
Pan Am ordered 25 DC-8-32s (later converted to -33s?) of which they took 19. Two went to their associate Panair do Brasil, with 4 going to Panagra in which Pan Am had 50% ownership until 1967 when Panagra was absorbed into Braniff who in turn, for a short time, operated some of the DC-8-32s/-33s originally ordered by Pan Am. At least one such DC-8 was repainted in the Braniff "jelly bean" scheme... in none other than the Panagra Green variation.
Rwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2719 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10173 times:
In 1967 I flew on Pan American DC-8s operating flights 76/77 JFK/REK/PIK/JFK. For years I thought they were 707s until I saw an interior shot of the DC-8 and remembered those seat-mounted reading lights.
The early bird gets the worm, BUT...the second mouse gets the cheese!
Cubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 394 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10135 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 8): The Delta/ Pan AM interchange was via IAD, Washington-Dules. From IAD to LHR, FRA etc.
Actually, originally, the PA/DL interchange operated LHR/BWI (the old Baltimore-Washington Friendship airport) to ATL. DL crews took it over in BWI (which of course you are right....later they did move it to Dulles) and flew it to ATL. DL would then use it (wet leased I guess) on their domestic system to MSY, DAL and LAX and maybe other cities. It would return to ATL the next day and originate the interchange back to BWI (later Dulles) with the PanAm crew taking over for the flight back to LHR.
Crownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9949 times:
Tango-Bravo...I suggest you find yourself an OAG from that era. I can assure you that this source does differentiate the services between the two types. For example, during the 1960's, from PHL, the 707/720B's operated to the Caribbean, while the 707's also flew to LHR, while the DC-8 ran the Paris route. Look for an International edition...
Sparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 9875 times:
The PA-DL interchange started May 29,1964.It operated MSY-ATL-IAD-PHL-LHR MO,SA) and Rheintalflug (Austria)">WE,SA,and MSY-ATL-IAD-PHL-Paris Orly SU,TU,TH,FR with PA DC8-30s.It was changed to PA 747s originating in ATL in 1971.In 1973 Delta and Pan Am 747s were used until the interchange ended in 1975.
Milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1900 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9763 times:
By 1967 or 1968, Pan Am had sold their DC-8-32/33's to Delta and United. Delta's aircraft purchased from Pan Am continued to be used on the interchange through IAD to LHR and ORY. Delta retired theirs first after the first Arab Oil shock after the Yom Kippur war in October of 1973. I believe they were gone by January 31, 1974 being traded into Boeing on 727-232A's. United soon followed parking theirs in Denver next to the flight academy before disposing of them. Also parked on the tarmac and grass in Denver were about half the of 720-022 fleet with the old Pan Am 8's. I believe United sold a few of them and traded what wasn't sold to Boeing on their first order of 727-222A's in 1978, along with some if not all of their DC-8-21's. Delta kept the Pan Am interiors and the rows in coach were numbered from back to front. I flew on one only once on Delta from MIA to ATL with a stop in JAX. While Delta separated them in the schedule, United did not, and I believe United installed their own interiors with the five seat lounge in the rear of coach across from the coach galley. The -33's were the only non fan DC-8's that Delta operated after converting all of their Series 10's to -51's in about 1963, while United converted many of their series 10's to -20's with the same JT-4's as were on the -33's from Pan Am. Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's, but rather used the generic JET both in their own timetables and in the OAG. The only flights designated as DC-8's were those operated on the Panagra and Delta interchanges. For example, in the June 15, 1966 OAG, the Pan Am Flights to HNL from LAX and SFO, or from LAX to PTY used the JET designator, as they could be either 707-320B's, 707-320's or the DC8-33's; however, the flights from MIA to PTY that were interchange flights with PG were listed as DC-8's. Pan Am ordered 25 DC-8's and 25 707's in 1955, but some of the 25 DC-8 went to Panagra and AeroBrasil. With United, they did not designate the schedules either between the converted -52's, the delivered -52's, or the -21's and -33's; and the in some issues of the OAG, all UA DC-8 flights were designated as D8F's even though most of United's aircraft until the retirements started were JT-4 powered rather than JT-3D fan powered. United did advertise Mark IV DC-8's, their designation for the Fan Powered aircraft in 1962/1963 in order to compete with American's 707 Astrojets on transcon flights from IDL/JFK.
CV990Coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 281 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9744 times:
I remember in the late 60's Pan Am flew the DC-8 to Dusseldorf from London but I'm not sure which US city the flight originated from. Most of the flights from London to the USA and Europe at that time were 707's
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23154 posts, RR: 23 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9490 times:
Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16): Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's
Assume you're referring to the period before PA sold the DC-8s. I'm sure they used the 707 designation in timetables and OAGs in later years.
Can't remember whether PA separately identified flights operated by their nine 720Bs (mostly used to the Caribbean and Latin America due to their excellent hot/high performance) which PA acquired used from AA and LH.
Milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1900 posts, RR: 7 Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9173 times:
Quoting Timz (Reply 19): Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):
Pan Am NEVER designated their flights as DC-8's or 707's, but rather used the generic JET both in their own timetables and in the OAG.
Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
The 4/67 Timetable Edition OAG shows JET; the 5/67 says 707/DC8.
Anyone who looks at an OAG after 5/67 can see for himself. (Or a PA timetable, I suspect.)
Once the DC-8's were sold, the flights were listed as 707's, but when before the 8's were sold, they used JET. I haven't seen a May 1967 OAG in 40+ years, (my dad brought them home every month from the office during that time, and I read them), but I do have a June 15, 1966 North American version and Pan Am at that time was still only using Jet. Their timetables also used the word JET with an explanation that JET was either a 707 or DC-8 Jet Clipper. I do not believe they ever distinguished between the 707-321;s, 321B/C's, 121's, 121B's, or the 720-030B's they picked up from LH.