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Question About LHR Slot Ownership And Use.  
User currently offlineTFFIP From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 211 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

(some people talking yesterday.......)
When LH completes the BD deal, it will control all of BD's LHR slots, but is it free to use them in which ever way it wants. The question was attached to the (hypothetical) idea of rebranding BD into (... whatever...) Someone said that the slots are owned by bmi British Midland and had to be used under that name....

Just curious......

9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

I believe that as they are purchsing BMI then they have the right to take BMI's slot ownership and use them as they need. Having a slot doesn't mean you have to use it on a certain route. What they will have to do though is factor in that BMI use mainly shorthaul aircraft Due to Terminal capacity it is not as simple as swapping the A321 for a 744 on every single slot, although with T1 empty without BA then it wouldn't be too much of a problem apart from T1 would need more large aircraft gates!

User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2958 times:



Quoting TFFIP (Thread starter):
Someone said that the slots are owned by bmi British Midland and had to be used under that name....

Lufthansa Italia is already using two of BDs slots.

Slots can be bought and sold. Delta and Continental have both bought slots from other airlines at LHR with the openskies agreement. I believe AA got its slots at LHR when they bought TWA and United bought its slots from Pan Am. Someone can correct me if I am wrong about AA and UA.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

I believe that what both Theginge (Reply 1) and Eghansen (Reply 2) are correct.

Quoting Theginge (Reply 1):
What they will have to do though is factor in that BMI use mainly shorthaul aircraft Due to Terminal capacity it is not as simple as swapping the A321 for a 744 on every single slot, although with T1 empty without BA then it wouldn't be too much of a problem apart from T1 would need more large aircraft gates!

And I believe it is not only terminal capacity that is a factor here. Swapping a slot used by an A321 for a 744 service could also raise problems of airspace as the spacing between a 744 and a 320, for example, will need to be larger than that between a 321 and a 320 because of wake turbulance.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 2):
Slots can be bought and sold. Delta and Continental have both bought slots from other airlines at LHR with the openskies agreement. I believe AA got its slots at LHR when they bought TWA and United bought its slots from Pan Am. Someone can correct me if I am wrong about AA and UA.

Correct. And slots can be leased by one airline to another for fixed periods of time.

Incidentally because of the current economic downturn the EC has proposed that slots at all European slot controlled airports including LHR should not be subject to the "use it or loose it" rule. The proposal was that slots for this summer season that were not used at least 80 per cent of the time would not be confiscated and could be retained for use in the 2010 summer season.

Apparently two arguments were used to support this proposal. The first was that it would avoid the pollution created by aircraft flying empty simply to retain slot ownership. The second was that if an airline was liquidated by the cost of trying to retain slots with insufficient revenue to make the flights viable, the reduced level of future competition would not be in the consumers' interest.

But does anyone know if the EU has approved this proposal?


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2764 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 2):

Slots can be bought and sold.

In the EU, they cannot be bought outright under EU law (the is a EC regulation in place that deals with slots). They can be traded in a barter deal, however (uneven slot exchange etc.)


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2598 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 4):
In the EU, they cannot be bought outright under EU law (the is a EC regulation in place that deals with slots). They can be traded in a barter deal, however (uneven slot exchange etc.)

I think you will find that the regulation forbidding the trading of slots within the EU was changed last year. See:
http://www.oxera.com/main.aspx?id=7523


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

I think this a mere proposal. AFAIK, EC Regulation 95/93 is still alive and kicking:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cg...!CELEXnumdoc&numdoc=393R0095&lg=en


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2544 times:



Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 6):
I think this a mere proposal. AFAIK, EC Regulation 95/93 is still alive and kickin

If it is still alive and kicking it is clear that many are openly flouting the regulation. For example CO are reported to have bought four LHR slot pairs for $209 millio:

As one example, CO paid $209 million for slots to operate 4 daily LHR flights:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article3480029.ece


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2516 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
If it is still alive and kicking it is clear that many are openly flouting the regulation. For example CO are reported to have bought four LHR slot pairs for $209 millio:

Alitalia sold some of its slots at LHR for $133 million.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2007/12/alitalia.html


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8500 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
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Quoting Eghansen (Reply 2):
Slots can be bought and sold. Delta and Continental have both bought slots from other airlines at LHR with the openskies agreement. I believe AA got its slots at LHR when they bought TWA and United bought its slots from Pan Am. Someone can correct me if I am wrong about AA and UA.

AA & UA did get their slots from TWA and Pan AM in 1991. TWA never operated 17 flights daily to LHR, AA has been far more agressive then UA at LHR adding DFW and RDU last year from LGW. UA has reduced its LHR operation to LAX, SFO, IAD and its two hubs of DEN and ORD.

AA has turned its self in a force to be dealt with at LHR. United has sold a few slot pairs and leasd a few out to Middle East airlines.


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