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Ryanair To Close Düsseldorf (Weeze) Base  
User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10893 times:

Today Ryanair released the following press release:
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....09&month=apr&story=gen-en-220409-2

Another stunt, or would they really go through with it, if the operating hours are not changed back to what they are now?
Right now you can not book flights in and out of Weeze that arrive or leave late in the evening.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10842 times:

Let's see... 2.5million pax per annum is 6,849 pax per day which generates 2,500 jobs. 2,500 (plus the sheep dogs) for Ryanair to herd 6,849 pax per day on and off aircraft...

Seems a little high to me.


User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10843 times:

What are the operating restrictions that have been imposed?

As for pulling out of NRN, who knows? Elsewhere in destinations, they have promised in the past and not moved out or cut routes, presumably as a result of getting what they wanted. They have also promised, cut back routes, and then added them again at a later stage, again, presumably because they got what they wanted. But, they have also promised and did what they said and not returned in any form. So, we have no option but to wait and see.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10831 times:

Clearly, FR are leaving no scope for manoevre here. Whether Weeze will fold or tell FR to take there planes elsewhere who knows.

What restrictions are they trying to impose on MOL.

Looking at it the other way, if FR walk away will that create opportunities for someone else.


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10831 times:

True, but if they can't operate certain flights that arrive late like FR3258 STN-NRN arriving at 11.25pm, there would be a lot of flights that they can't operate.

User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10822 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 1):
Let's see... 2.5million pax per annum is 6,849 pax per day which generates 2,500 jobs. 2,500 (plus the sheep dogs) for Ryanair to herd 6,849 pax per day on and off aircraft...

Seems a little high to me.

Think more widely! You have the based cabin crew and pilots. You have staff that would have been employed at NRN considering it was barely used, if at all, airline-wise pre-FR. These would encompass numerous functions. You would have jobs in the local hospitality industry, tourism industry, and so on. How would you actually attribute certain jobs to FR being at NRN would be very difficult. And that is why we can't tell whether 2,500 is accurate or not.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10793 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
What restrictions are they trying to impose on MOL.


Didn't realise they're being imposed on MOL.  Silly

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
Clearly, FR are leaving no scope for manoevre here. Whether Weeze will fold or tell FR to take there planes elsewhere who knows.

NRN is a great example of an airport that needs airlines - particularly those that deliver volume very quickly, like FR, and through which they will then benefit through non-aeronautical revenue generation - more than airlines need them. Indeed, NRN was apparently one of Europe's fastest-growing airports in 2008, with growth of around 80% over 2007, almost all of which attributed to FR. Imagine the effects if it pulled out.

[Edited 2009-04-22 15:11:18]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10745 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 3):
What restrictions are they trying to impose on MOL.

The airport would allow only flights between 6am and 10pm.
Here is a link to a German newspaper (in German only...sorry)
http://www.rp-online.de/public/artic...port-schraenkt-Flugzeiten-ein.html
For airlines with a base, it would be open from 5.30am-11.30pm

[Edited 2009-04-22 15:19:22]

User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10728 times:

OK, what restrictions are they are imposing on FR.

You clearly think that FR have a strong hand here.

However volume is one thing, profit is another. A bit like load factor and yield.

Given that FR seem to always drive a very hard bargain, this may not be as profitable as you suggest.

Also politicians/judges can be very stubborn when pushed into a corner.

We shall see.


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 10716 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 1):
Let's see... 2.5million pax per annum is 6,849 pax per day which generates 2,500 jobs. 2,500 (plus the sheep dogs) for Ryanair to herd 6,849 pax per day on and off aircraft...

Well, this is pretty much in line with Ryanair always making a fool of themselves by stating that they are investing 80m locally when they base a new aircraft somewhere.....


User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10694 times:



Quote:
For airlines with a base, it would be open from 5.30am-11.30pm

Hmm. 0530-2330 isn't as bad as I was expecting, although 2330 would need to be later.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
You clearly think that FR have a strong hand here.

Why do you think they have selected so many airports with little or no traffic? It is not for the sake of it. It is for the far greater negotiating opportunity – such airports need airlines, not vice-versa – and also for operational advantages. These things will help to widen its cost differential over its competitors.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Given that FR seem to always drive a very hard bargain, this may not be as profitable as you suggest.

I didn't once mention profitability. I said that such airports will charge FR extremely little, if anything, and make the vast majority of their income from non-aeronautical elements. Hence the fundamental nature of passenger volume. And guess what FR promises to deliver? Again, improving FR’s all-important negotiating position.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10671 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 10):
Hmm. 0530-2330 isn't as bad as I was expecting, although 2330 would need to be later.

true, but is a flight is only 5 minutes late, it won't be able to land in NRN

like this flight: FR3258 STN-NRN arriving at 11.25pm


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10536 times:

Always makes me laugh...

Dusseldorf Weeze!

It's 85Km from Dusseldorf, Ok i know Nijmegan(sp?) doesn't have the same ring to it, and its in a different country, but FR have got away with that before!



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10326 times:



Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 12):
Ok i know Nijmegan(sp?) doesn't have the same ring to it

True, Nijmegen doesn't have the same ring to it, but most of the passengers out of Weeze are Dutch.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10277 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 11):
true, but is a flight is only 5 minutes late, it won't be able to land in NRN

like this flight: FR3258 STN-NRN arriving at 11.25pm

In their current summer schedule, they start flights fairly late. These are the departure times (random monday in July):
06:15 (ALC)
06:25 (VST)
06:30 (SXF)
06:50 (BLQ)
06:50 (STN)
07:00 (RIX)
07:30 (ZDR)

Tuesdays start a bit earlier:
06:00 (SNN)
06:00 (TFS)
06:15 (ALC)
06:30 (TPS)
06:30 (SXF)
06:50 (STN)
07:10 (BTS)

Still, there is some space to shift flights to earlier hours. It will require a major reshuffle, but I think it's well possible to make it work.

Also, in the current schedule, there are hardly any flights arriving after 23:30. There are only some STN flights coming in at 23:35 and the RAK flights arrive at 23:40. There are quite some flights scheduled to arrive between 23:00 and 23:30, though.

Ryanair's nightmare is that they are forbidden to land a delayed airport. This happened with U2 at DTM, and this was the reason for them to stop the base there. However, when regulations are set the way that aircraft delayed for operational, traffic control, weather, etc, reasons can still come in beyond 23:30, there is no such a problem IMO.


User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10201 times:



Quoting Dutchflyboi (Reply 11):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 10):
Hmm. 0530-2330 isn't as bad as I was expecting, although 2330 would need to be later.


true, but is a flight is only 5 minutes late, it won't be able to land in NRN

If you read what I wrote, I put "2330 would need to be later."



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10122 times:

How late does FR WANT to be able to land?

User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2115 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10101 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 16):
How late does FR WANT to be able to land?

Probably needs to account for delayed arrivals. With 6 based aircraft, if one has a delay at some stage throughout the day, it's impossible to rectify it.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9959 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 1):
Let's see... 2.5million pax per annum is 6,849 pax per day which generates 2,500 jobs. 2,500 (plus the sheep dogs) for Ryanair to herd 6,849 pax per day on and off aircraft...

Seems a little high to me.

It is high. Too high for the type of airport NRN is.

A couple of years I did an extensive research (for my BSc-title) on the subject of the number of jobs created at regional airports.

The number of jobs created at an airport consist of direct jobs (based crew, check-in employees, customs and immigration officers, security, ATC, shops at the airport, baggage handlers, maintenance, cleaners, etc.). Then, there are indirect jobs, like jobs at food and fuel suppliers, construction companies, etc.

Also, there are induced jobs, generated by the spending of the people in direct jobs. Say the increase of spendings in restaurants in the region caused by the airport / airline employees.

Last, there are catalytic jobs. These are jobs generated by increased tourism in the region, increased business activity (companies choosing the region for new business ventures, etc).

It is extremely difficult to determine the real effect of the airport. The direct and indirect jobs are (relatively) easy to measure, induced and catalytic jobs very hard.

Often, a number of 1000 employees per 1M yearly pax is mentioned. Some researchers have found this number at airports like AMS and LHR. However, these kinds of airports are uncomparable when it comes to direct jobs: a hub airport requires way more jobs to process all transfer pax, etc. Also, these airports have huge maintenance facilities, not existing at NRN.

For increased tourism, it is logical that airports like GRO and ALC benefit more from this than a mostly originating airport like NRN. Most people using NRN are Dutch or German people going on holiday. They spend their money in Italy or Spain; the only money they spend in the NRN region are parking fees and some coffee at the airport.

I'd say that for NRN, a factor from 400 to 750 jobs per 1M pax is more believable. That's still some 1000 jobs, though.


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9798 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
If you read what I wrote, I put "2330 would need to be later."

I read what you said. And agree what you are saying. A good solution would be that no flights should be scheduled to land after 23.30, but delayed flights should be able to land up to maybe midnight.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3787 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9653 times:

The problem is that there is a dispute by different courts on whether the permission for Weeze (NRN) is legal or not.

The main case is still at the federal administrative court pending decision. The Oberverwaltungsgericht Münster(highest administrative court in Northrhine-Westfalia) stated already in 2006 that the permission for Weeze airport was illegal, revoking it by its judgement.

The court did not allow an appeal against this decision. Against this decision not to allow an appeal, the losing party successfully appealed at the federal administrative court, which stated that this case is covering new grounds and thus must be considered before this court, thus revoking the decision not to allow an appeal.

After it allowed the appeal, the judgement that held NRN airport illegal was appealed before the high court, which still has not decided on the case.

With other words, since 2006 NRN is driven by a potentially illegal license, however, until the final court ruling by the federal administrative court, this license remains in place.

The reason why the Oberverwaltungsgericht Münster held the license to be illegal were mainly noise complaints.

Against those complaints, the people who fight against the general license wanted the court to enact a preliminary ruling against noise. This one was successful now, as the court in Münster now imposed the 22-6 nighttime ban on the airport, which Ryanair is complaining against.

This ruling is hardly surprising, as the court in Münster thinks the whole airport is illegal. It remains to be seen whether the federal court has the same opinion, something which is rather doubtful given the fact that they have allowed the appeal in the first place.

There is a way to fight against this preliminary ruling on the noise issue, as well. So I would guess we have to see if FR really will leave NRN.

There is still a chance, though, that the federal court also holds the airport to be illegal altogether, ending its life from one day to another. But this is still to be awaited.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8284 times:

I suppose the other questions are how much do FR make from Weeze, and how many of those 2.5M passengers would fly with FR from an alternative Airport.

User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7560 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 21):
how many of those 2.5M passengers would fly with FR from an alternative Airport.

What about CGN?



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 7475 times:



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
You would have jobs in the local hospitality industry, tourism industry, and so on.



Quoting Joost (Reply 18):
A couple of years I did an extensive research (for my BSc-title) on the subject of the number of jobs created at regional airports.

There is a difference between jobs created by airline service and Ryanair service. I don't doubt that an airport with 2.5 million pax generates 2,500 jobs. But Ryanair seems to be assuming that if it leaves Weeze, the 2.5 million pax will simply stay home.

HIstorically, when an airline stops service to an airport, the pax shift to other airlines or other airports. This is particularly true in a place like Dusseldorf where there are many transport options nearby. These include Maastricht and Eindhoven which Ryanair also serves.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3188 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7306 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 21):
I suppose the other questions are how much do FR make from Weeze, and how many of those 2.5M passengers would fly with FR from an alternative Airport.



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 23):
HIstorically, when an airline stops service to an airport, the pax shift to other airlines or other airports. This is particularly true in a place like Dusseldorf where there are many transport options nearby. These include Maastricht and Eindhoven which Ryanair also serves.

This is fo course true. In this case, however, people will shift to other carriers than FR. True, FR do serve EIN and MST. EIN however currently has more stringent noise regulations and opening hours than the ones are now considered for NRN. MST is simply no realistic alternative for the majority of the NRN users.

From all airports, DUS and AMS will benefit most if FR indeed withdraws. CGN could possibly cater for the German side of the NRN users, but is not really an option for people from the western Dutch provinces.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 23):
There is a difference between jobs created by airline service and Ryanair service. I don't doubt that an airport with 2.5 million pax generates 2,500 jobs.

I know there is such a difference. And even considering that, I doubt that an airport of the size of NRN, with the services provided like at NRN and the touristic potential of the airport, reaches that number.


25 Humberside : Any reaction from Hamburg International to the decision by the German court? Will it effect them?
26 MD11Engineer : Doesn't work. FR flies in two shifts. The morning crews start at around 5 am local and fly until early afternoon (somewhere around 2pm to 4 pm), then
27 Lightsaber : Very important point. FR has little to no ability to shift flights earlier. Who wants to take an earlier flight anyway? 6am is the earliest I conside
28 Eghansen : I wonder if that will be necessary. You have to read the articles carefully and parse what Ryanair actually says. "If the decision to restrict the ai
29 Tobias2702 : As I understand it, the case is that a German court judged that commercial operations at NRN are illegal. The airport originally was for General Avia
30 MD11Engineer : I wish them the Royal Air Force back, with Harriers and Tornadoes doing around the clock ops. After all the place used to be called RAF Lahrbruch.
31 Tobias2702 : Oh come off it... I can even understand them. When RAF pulled out, people thought about living in a quiet rural area within Germany's most densely po
32 Lightsaber : Most likely scenario *if* FR is allowed to continue commercial service there (on a reduced hour basis). I could not see keeping a crew base there wit
33 BALHRWWCC : They get away with it all the time. There are quite a few other airports that are no way near the city that the airport name applies. A few examples
34 Dutchflyboi : As listed in reply 7: For airlines with a base, hours of operation would be from 5.30am - 11.30pm. The problem with this is, that some flights have a
35 MD11Engineer : Sure it will affect FR's plans. If the passengers can't get to the airport for the flight, there won't be full aircraft and FR WILL pull out. It does
36 Vfw614 : AFAIR, some flights have longish turn-arounds at NRN, so assuming that slots should not be a problem as Ryanair serves a lot of tertiary airports, Ry
37 AirNZ : As a matter of interest, London Stansted is 60 Km from London......so I wonder how many airlines over the years have used the same description that t
38 Joost : Yesterday, Ryanair and Airport Weeze announced to have finished negotiations with the regional government. The new agreement is as follows: * General
39 Adriaticflight : So NRN is "saved"
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