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First Boeing 747-8 Order Cancellation?  
User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20590 times:

Bloomberg is reporting on their ticker of the first Boeing 747-8 order cancellation. Can anyone confirm? Haven't seen any other news on it.

88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17005 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20568 times:

Do you mean the freighter version or the pax version? Remember, LH is the only airline that has ordered the pax version so can it be them?


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20559 times:

Yes, there have been 2 747 BBJ sales that have been canceled.


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20569 times:

It was apparently a VIP bird.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 4, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20495 times:
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You know things are bad when the multi-billionaires have to cut back...

Seriously, you'd think if any orders would be safe, it would be folks who are worth eleven figures (since they are buying a nine-figure product).


User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2241 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20460 times:

Good this it's not LH, bad thing is they're still pax 748s.


There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 20383 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Seriously, you'd think if any orders would be safe, it would be folks who are worth eleven figures (since they are buying a nine-figure product).

Given the current price of oil, the financial state of places like Dubai, and the likelihood that the orders were destined for that area, I can see why they canceled.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24084 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 20269 times:



Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Remember, LH is the only airline that has ordered the pax version so can it be them?

Not counting these cancellations (if correct), Boeing had orders for 8 VIP versions of the 747-8 in addition to the 20 for LH.


User currently onlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 20105 times:



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 5):
Good this it's not LH, bad thing is they're still pax 748s.

Its only a matter of time before this is canceled and the 747-8i program along with it, there are no prospects for further orders in the foreseeable future and it can not be economical to produce 10-20 passenger birds. It's a money pit that Boeing would be well to get out of.



BV
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2125 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 19952 times:



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 2):
Yes, there have been 2 747 BBJ sales that have been canceled.

Could you please clarify about the two cancellations. One 747-8i BBJ was canceled in this week's update. Are you saying that Boeing will record another 747-8i BBJ cancellation in next week's update - or was the other 747-8i BBJ cancellation sometime last year?



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5831 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 19935 times:
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These two 747-8i BBJ orders could turn into the two new VC-25's that the USAF has sent RFI out for. LOL! Wishful thinking.

User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 900 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19792 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
These two 747-8i BBJ orders could turn into the two new VC-25's that the USAF has sent RFI out for. LOL! Wishful thinking.

That order is probably the better part of a decade away. I doubt the 748 will still be in production in 10 years.


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2703 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (4 years 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 19486 times:



Quoting WestWing (Reply 9):
Could you please clarify about the two cancellations.

Boeing received a BBJ 747 cancellation last year, right as the downturn was beginning to take effect. However, another customer signed up the same month, so that first cancellation kinda 'slipped under the radar.'

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 8):
Its only a matter of time before this is canceled and the 747-8i program along with it

Unless something drastic happens, the 747-8i will not be cancelled. LH remains committed to it, as does Boeing. Can it still happen? Sure. But there are ever-increasing signs that it will not.

Quoting Glbltrvlr (Reply 6):
Given the current price of oil, the financial state of places like Dubai, and the likelihood that the orders were destined for that area, I can see why they canceled.

Unless something has changed recently, all current BBJ 747's currently on order are destined for the Gulf region.


Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 18709 times:



Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 8):
it can not be economical to produce 10-20 passenger birds

Please explain this? I mean, it's not like they're building a whole different plane from the freighter version. Yes, I undestand about all the interior fittings, wiring, IFE etc, but still the bulk of the cost to develop a new plane goes into wings, engine etc, not the interior design.

If you have a new plane that is available it seems to me it doesn't make much difference if you want to operate it as a freighter or passenger version - difference between the two will be marginal.

Instead of bashing LH for ordering 747-8i, you'd better cheer for some US airlines to finally realise it would be more beneficial to fly a widebody out of congested hubs, than to have 100 RJs getting delayed all the time. As for passenger comfort, I'd say they (frequent US travellers) get what they deserve.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 18499 times:



Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 8):
it can not be economical to produce 10-20 passenger birds.

No it can't indeed and Boeing has recently acknowledged this too...

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 13):
it's not like they're building a whole different plane from the freighter version. Yes, I understand about all the interior fittings, wiring, IFE etc, but still the bulk of the cost to develop a new plane goes into wings, engine etc, not the interior design.

Unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, the 748F isn't exactly making Boeing much money either, In fact, Boeing recently admitted they were 'at a loss' on most of the -F sales too, so there's not much money left to transfer to the 748i and pay the bills there...

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 12):
the 747-8i will not be cancelled.

It will never be cancelled, only deferred indefinitely... if LH is willing to be helpful, that is!  Wink

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 12):
LH remains committed to it, as does Boeing.

Boeing's only commitment to the 748i left is the contractual commitment it has with LH.

Without that, I don't think it would take them 2 seconds to defer the entire 748i program, focus on the 748F and redirect all funds and energy to the 787. However, there's the little issue of a firm contract with LH preventing them to clean up swiftly, so the ball is well in LH's camp.

I don't expect LH to blink first however as it's Boeing who needs a cancellation far more than LH does: the Germans just can't loose: either they'll get those 20 planes they've ordered dirt cheap, or they'll be able to squize Boeing out over a very expensive compensation agreement. Don't expect them to move at all!

I am pretty sure that in retrospect, Boeing would never have offered the 748i...
Imagine no firm LH order on the books today: you can bet your life over it that the few remaining BBJs would be quickly cancelled, the 747 program refocussed on just the 748F and all resources aimed at helping to solve the delays in the 787 program....
Those 20 miserable 748is for LH must be the worst sales Boeing has booked for years!


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10365 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 18429 times:

Boeing would be wise to raise the price of the 77W and lower that of the 748I I think  Wink

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
Those 20 miserable 748is for LH must be the worst sales Boeing has booked for years!

And that for the most attractive aircraft Boeing developed since 1989  Sad

But as the 748 freighter is and will remain without competition the program as a whole is bound to be successful.


User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17936 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 10):
These two 747-8i BBJ orders could turn into the two new VC-25's that the USAF has sent RFI out for. LOL! Wishful thinking.

Very good possibility. Boeing will build the new VC's before storing the tooling. Guarenteed.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17863 times:
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LH has wanted a ~420-seater for well over a decade. The only one on the market is the 747-8I so that's what they're stuck with - it may not be the best option, but it is the only option, so they ordered it and they will stand by that order as long as Boeing builds it. They already have something smaller and they soon will have something bigger, but they feel they still require something in-between them.

It may not be economical for Boeing to build it, but if they do not, then they are likely locked out of LH for decades. If LH could, I believe they would fly an all-Airbus fleet, but since Airbus is not building a ~420-seat A380-700, LH has to buy Boeing. And because they have to buy the 747-8I, that gives Boeing at least some leverage to try and get the 787-9 into LH's fleet instead of the A350XWB as their A333 and A343 replacement. If they can do so, it could be worth 50 or more frames. There is also the opportunity to land an upwards of 20-frame 777 Freighter order, as well, to replace the MD-11F fleet. And it improves the chances for the 737RS to replace the A320s in the 2020's instead of handing it by default to the A320NR.

So a loss on the 747-8I could turn into a tidy profit on the 787-9, 777 Freighter and 737RS programs.



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 12):
Unless something has changed recently, all current BBJ 747's currently on order are destined for the Gulf region.

Do you have any idea when the 747VIPs are scheduled for delivery? Are they early in the 747-8I production run (so 2011-2012) or later?

[Edited 2009-04-24 04:04:19]

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4361 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17812 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
or they'll be able to squize Boeing out over a very expensive compensation agreement. Don't expect them to move at all!

While I don't expect them to move, LH is very aware of a good long term ( > 20 years is long terhm here ) relationship to A and B. So whatever the result will be, both sides will be able to live with it, and keep the friendship.

Since, in the current situation with the cash they have, they can get every aircraft they need very short term, why move? If they wanted to have a dozen 2010 and 2011 A380 slots more, it would take 5 minutes to get them currently. I start with 5 from Kingfisher.


User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17814 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
So a loss on the 747-8I could turn into a tidy profit on the 787-9, 777 Freighter and 737RS programs.

Smart analysis, really.

As for "LH and all Airbus fleet", why do you think they would want to go that way? I mean, they are flying a ton of B737s and have been a loyal Boeing customer for decades.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3364 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 17466 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
I don't expect LH to blink first however as it's Boeing who needs a cancellation far more than LH does: the Germans just can't loose: either they'll get those 20 planes they've ordered dirt cheap, or they'll be able to squize Boeing out over a very expensive compensation agreement. Don't expect them to move at all!

That hypothetical situation is similar to the A380F cancellations thar UPS went throught - they waited for Airbus to blink and said "thankyou very much" for the compensation.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29690 posts, RR: 84
Reply 21, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 17278 times:
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Quoting Acabgd (Reply 19):
As for "LH and all Airbus fleet", why do you think they would want to go that way? I mean, they are flying a ton of B737s and have been a loyal Boeing customer for decades.

They have chosen to replace the rest of the 737 Classic fleet with more A320s. So by early next decade, the only Boeing aircraft in LH's mainline fleet could be the 747-8I.

With the "common cockpit" Airbus offers across their line, this will mean that LH will need very little time to train an A320 family pilot to command an A330/A340 and for an A330/A340 pilot to command an A380, reducing training costs. I imagine it also helps the cabin crew with airframe familiarization procedures, as well, reducing that training cost, as well. It also means only a single manufacturer for airframe spares and maintenance, which reduces warehousing costs.

The 747-8I will leverage the training the 747-400 crews already have as well as provide insight into how the 787 cockpit and cabin systems will look like, since it leverages the 787 in those areas, as well. So if LH decides to take the 787-9, it does offer them a dual-pool of pilots to draw from - one trained on the Airbus fleet and one on the Boeing (with cross-training as desired, of course). Assuming LH chooses the GEnx for the 787, that would give them a "common" engine family on the Boeing planes, which will help with spares and maintenance costs.

But even if the 747-8I becomes a single-niche model and Boeing a single-niche manufacturer in LH's mainline fleet, LH is willing to accept it because Airbus can't fill that niche for them and because of that long relationship you noted they have had with Boeing.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16990 times:

Could anyone provide an update on the Arik Air order for the 747-8i? Has it ever been finalized and booked? Or is it a no-go?


All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16830 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
They have chosen to replace the rest of the 737 Classic fleet with more A320s. So by early next decade, the only Boeing aircraft in LH's mainline fleet could be the 747-8I.

They did that because the current 737s are not as economical as the A320s -- simple as that. LH bases its decisions on analyses of facts and is not driven by patriotism like some US-based carriers. The same will happen when they decide whether to buy B787s or A350s -- I personally expect them to order both.

LH was the launch/an early customer of several Boeing models and has always tried to avoid a dependence on one manufacturer. And, there are still many "Boeing" MD11Fs in LH'S fleet they are apparently very happy with.


User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16772 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
But even if the 747-8I becomes a single-niche model and Boeing a single-niche manufacturer in LH's mainline fleet, LH is willing to accept it because Airbus can't fill that niche for them and because of that long relationship you noted they have had with Boeing.

Thanks a lot for the detailed and excellent explanation!



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
25 Slz396 : There is very little aircraft specific system commonality between the 747-8 (which will heavily draw from the previous classic 747 models) and the al
26 Post contains links and images Keesje : I think they got A340-500's that cover there long haul requirements, at lower unit costs / procurement costs / risks, yrs earlier. Boeing 747-8i: fur
27 Baroque : And ONE of the two other options would be: "Boeing would be wise to lower the price of the 77W and raise that of the 748I I think" At least that woul
28 GlobeEx : Which might be true for 95% of the airlines on this planet isn't true for LH as Lufthansa Technik maintaines all different kinds of aircrafts and man
29 Davescj : Acabgd, I don't think you'll see any 748s on a domestic route. Frequent pax prefer frequency to large planes. Also, large planes between 2 hubs works
30 Shankly : Stitch I normal admire your analysis, but you've tripped up here. Not only for the reason that SLz396 notes, but also, in simple terms most of the 74
31 Gr8Circle : Maybe the VIP concerned has decided to buy an A380 instead....
32 Manfredj : I find this rampant speculation of canceling the 748 because Boeing have lost 2 orders silliness. If you ride on the fact that Boeing will manage more
33 Rheinbote : I understand that on the 748, fly-by-wire is for load alleviation only and as such limited to the ailerons and spoilers. That certainly doesn't make
34 Jfk777 : 20 passenger 748I's, lets all kill the program because of a recession, BAD decision. More airlines will order the 748, if only the cargo version. Abou
35 Stitch : LH could have added the 737NG into their fleet, but chose to add more A320s because they already had them and that made it cheaper. I was referring t
36 NA : If they want to loose more money, sure Absolutely nobody with even the remotest knowledge in aviation can deny that the 748 makes sense already as a
37 Acabgd : Yeah, sadly I know. We've had this discussion in another thread and (thankfully) some others shared my opinion, but I understand the US flying public
38 Ikramerica : You might want to tell that to the people in charge of such things, or just look at history to see how you are wrong. EIS of 2020+ would make the cur
39 Acabgd : Is there really any other option for US than to have the 747-8 as the next Air Force One? The plane has to be big enough, hopefully a quad, which alr
40 PlaneInsomniac : Sorry, but this does not make any sense. Recently, LH singlehandedly launched not one, but two plane programs from North American manufacturers (748i
41 Enginebird : That's probably true (esp. as they also have A319s and A321s), but I think they also consider the 737NG less economical than the A320s. Look at it th
42 Stitch : For routes their 733s and 735s are doing, I suspect the 737NG might be the more economical choice on a pure block-hour and trip cost basis. However,
43 SKY1 : Why are you sure LH are so "desperate" looking for a 420-430 seater? Their A346 has 306 or 345 seats; their 747-400 have 330 seats according to seatg
44 PM : I think the word you're looking for is no "proof" at all. I know you're a conspiracy theorist from way back regarding the A320 but any analysis that
45 Rheinbote : A poster over on Flightblogger claimed that LH got their 747-8Is "for the price of a discounted 767". How credible is that? A textbook customer-suppl
46 Post contains links Brendows : Actually, figures I've seen indicates that the 737NG is cheaper to operate on longer missions, while the A320 has the advantage on shorter routes. Of
47 Shankly : I agree, but where is the "leverage" you talked about frfom using 744 crews? Promoting Airbus or indeed MD crew onto the 748 will mean full crew conv
48 GlobeEx : "Word" is that they paid about 40% of the list price. (Or they will pay, when they'll get them) GlobeEx
49 Stitch : Because I have been following LH and Boeing for over a decade on this issue. They have continually expressed a strong desire for a 500-seater (A380-8
50 Enginebird : Well, at least they know what they want We can hardly blame LH that Boeing agreed to build such a plane. I would love to see the 748 in LH's fleet, a
51 Post contains links Stitch : Randy Tinseth notes that the 747-8 Intercontinental has completed 25% of the design releases planned for the model which is within program expectation
52 Rheinbote : It was to happen two quarters earlier.
53 Tdscanuck : Was that before or after the last replan? In other words, are they still tracking the current schedule or is this a new two quarter slide? Tom.
54 Stitch : You'll need to address that question to Mo Yahyavi, vice president and general manager for the 747 Program, as he is the one who said "The engineering
55 Rheinbote : I think the original plan was to have 25% release mid 2008, the first replan moved this to Q4 2008. Then there was the replan announced in Nov 2008,
56 Stitch : The official line was that due to 747 production remaining at current levels instead of increasing, it would take two additional quarters to complete
57 Burkhard : More cargo in the belly => A320 Less Cargo in the belly => B738 . The belly is where they really differ.
58 Glareskin : There are two speculations showing up again and again. 1 Emirates cancelling it's massive A380 order. 2 LH cancelling the 748 order. Now I never wante
59 Stitch : Nothing stopped Airbus from making LH an offer they could not refuse to get them to order more A380-800s instead of the 747-8 in the first place. The
60 Astuteman : Contrary to popular opinion, Airbus have a floor below which they will not go on the A380, too..... For what its worth, in principle I agree with thi
61 Slz396 : Indeed, and Boeing went very low to get LH on board.... Nope, it likely isn't indeed! Unless the minimal cost isn't so minimal after all... Think of
62 Stitch : Remember, I've been one of those arguing against that "popular" opinion. They did go a few points lower then they normally do, but those who believe
63 FlyingAY : However Airbus effectively cancelled a "minimal cost derivative" called A380F, which had about 20 orders. Somehow that number sounds familiar...
64 Slz396 : LH went on record saying they paid less than half the list price and they are known to have received some other incentives too (like a simulator paid
65 Slz396 : That's assuming the 748i and the A380 are direct competitors, which in all fairness they aren't since the only 748i customer so far also has the A380
66 Acabgd : Doesn't anyone see that Boeing maybe wants to hold on to LH as a customer? As we all know LH badly wanted a ~400 seater plane and Airbus was apparent
67 Glareskin : Again this is not my thought. I am just reacting to these hypothesis as now is the moment it is probably closest to reality. The difference could be,
68 Stitch : It's officially been "deferred". Alas, that deferral resulted in the only two remaining customers canceling their orders, but Airbus has not formally
69 Stitch : Do you happen to have a link to that statement? I'm surprised none of the anti-747 crowd have posted it.
70 Manfredj : I think it's as simple as this: Make the 748F and 748i and rest assured that more orders will come at a later date. Isn't Airbus facing the same issue
71 Stitch : And if the worst-case scenario happens and Boeing never sells another 747-8I beyond the ones they have to date, at least the ones they did sell will b
72 SunriseValley : Two points that are subject to consideration; firstly the ESAD DXB-LAX. The Great circle is about 7200nm; the headings are about due north ( very sim
73 Ikramerica : I still believe that those initial dollars, at THAT POINT in the program, are 100% sunk and will never be recovered. The sales are too slow, and the
74 Stitch : I see my mistake. I was using pure miles, not nautical miles, so I was getting a figure of 8339mi for LAX and 8103mi for SFO using Great Circle Mappe
75 474218 : Any money received by the delivery of an A380, before they reach the "break even point", only goes to pay off Airbus's investigate in the A380 progra
76 Stitch : Airbus has already paid all the costs of the A380 development program from a mix of RLI and revenues earned from deliveries of A300, A320, A330 and A
77 Astuteman : Couldn't be more wrong. IIRC there is still around $3.5Bn RLI to be repaid at ome stage. All of the Eurobond financing has been matured (repaid), and
78 Scouseflyer : Stop it you're beraking one of the primary A net rules We've gone somewhat off track here, IMHO we're going to see a couple more deferrals / cancella
79 SunriseValley : In an article in Aviation Week dated Nov. 21 2008 , Michael Teal, 747 Chief project engineer, is quoted as saying that the OEW of the 747-8i had rise
80 Stitch : The 747-8F main deck can certainly be pressurized and heated, so that's not a problem. I also expect they could put in windows, if not along the enti
81 SunriseValley : Respectfully Stitch, from the November 2008 preliminary load/ range chart for the 747-8F , I read the MTOW at 975K pounds and the ZFW at 8500nm at ab
82 Stitch : The only Boeing-provided data I have is the January 2008 Airport Compatibility brochure which includes payload-range charts for the 747-8I and the 74
83 SunriseValley : Stitch, my error, I was referring to the September 2008 release for the 747-8F. The earliest freighter OEW that I can find is in a table prepared by
84 Stitch : I believe Aviation Week was using information from the 747-8 entry on Wikipedia, as those are the numbers there, though they were drawn from 2007 vers
85 Astuteman : I got 115k lb from the last published chart...... Rgds
86 SunriseValley : Is this in print somewhere ?
87 Post contains links Stitch : SunriseValley: www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7478brochure.pdf
88 Brilondon : As long a you don't work for Bank of America or Citi-Bank.
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