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A-340 At Melbourne To Be Scrapped  
User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1609 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 33607 times:
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ATDB is reporting that the Emirates A-340 at Melbourne will be scrapped. Seems a shame that an aircraft that successfully flew out of a tail scrape is not economically reapairable. To my knowledge, I do not know of another case where this is the result---certainly we have seen a/c scrapped where they did not fly out of a tail scrape but in this case this new bird did.

This then begs the question as to whether or not a decision to repair or scrap is made with the demand for the aircraft as one of the variables. You will recall the 9 month repair of the WN 737-700 overrrun at MDW which is rumoured to have cost $26 milliion US. The Quito A-340 was also another very close call---the official reason was that the repair would be to hard to do where it was but this is very suspect.....I mean Quito is not some jungle site and this aircraft was new as well.

So it appears to me that the current demand for a particular aircraft type at any particular point in time is a factor. Now please this is not an Airbus versus Boeing issue----only the propensity to more likely srap an aircraft when the demand has waned for that type.

111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineCcrlR From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33536 times:
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It all depends on where is the damage,and how much it will cost to repair vs getting a new plane. It is all the airline's decision. There have been other incindents where there was damage and the airline fixed the aircraft or had Boeing do it since the airline did not have heavy maintenance itself.


"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5225 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33481 times:



Quoting CcrlR (Reply 1):
It is all the airline's decision.

Do you think so? If the aircraft was insured I believe it would be the insurance companies decision.


User currently offlineMal787 From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33437 times:

Wonder if I could buy a couple of the 1st class seats for my lounge room ?

Shame to see any AC scrapped but in this case it must be financially driven

mal787



BN2 Metro, 402,404, Conquest, king air, 707,727.200, 732,733,734,735,736,738,757,762,763,742,743,744, MD11, DC9,Westwind
User currently onlineCcrlR From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33450 times:
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Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 2):

Yeah then the insurance company's decision is also a factor too. Depending on what thie decision is why the airlines end up doing that.



"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33436 times:

Wow, the A340NG has had its share of bad luck. IB at Quito, Etihad in Toulouse and now this. Shame.  Sad

User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4881 posts, RR: 37
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33425 times:



Quoting N471WN (Thread starter):
ATDB is reporting that the Emirates A-340 at Melbourne will be scrapped. Seems a shame that an aircraft that successfully flew out of a tail scrape is not economically reapairable. To my knowledge, I do not know of another case where this is the result---certainly we have seen a/c scrapped where they did not fly out of a tail scrape but in this case this new bird did.

AF Concorde that did the tail-scrape in Dakar had the same fate.


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33405 times:



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 2):
Do you think so? If the aircraft was insured I believe it would be the insurance companies decision

It's done in consultation between the insurance company and the airline.

If you've ever been in a car accident where the insurance company has decided to write-off your car, you can still have your car repaired ... but you end up buying the car back from the insurance company and paying the difference yourself.

It's a complicated and time-consuming process, but it is possible to repair a vehicle after the insurance company has decided to write it off. I imagine it's also possible to write off a vehicle that the insurance company has decided is worth fixing -- you just have to eat the difference between what the vehicle is worth, and what the insurance company is willing to pay to repair it.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8774 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33398 times:

Sure, of course it matters what the market price of the aircraft is. It makes no sense to pay $75 million to repair an aircraft that is only worth $72 million, for a generic example.

We can assume the aircraft must be so damaged, that maybe they feel it cannot be fixed at all. More than being "worthless" or not, what we do know is, this aircraft must be very badly damaged. Emirates may not want it anymore, which does impact the market value of it, given the A345 market is a small and (at this time) troubled one. So they have leverage in that way.


User currently offlineSmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33379 times:

I wonder how the EK a345 schedule is fairing one aircraft down? Will there bee a need for any adjustmens or have they already been made?

User currently offlineFlood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33301 times:

Interesting bit of news, as just the other day avherald reported:

"Emirates Airlines decided on Apr 21st, that the airplane will be repaired in Melbourne to a point, where it can perform an unpressurized ferry to Airbus Industries in Toulouse, where repairs will be completed."

http://avherald.com/h?article=416c9997/0000&opt=0


User currently offlineTrojanclipper From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 33233 times:

I know this sounds silly, but do you think that the airline was considering past repairs of tailstrikes that later proved fatal, a.k.a. China Airlines flight 611 ???

I'm not trying to criticize or be funny, just wonder if airlines ever think about these thinking in making decisions, or is it all financially motivated....Yes, I do know it's the airline industry we're talking about...


User currently offlineVhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 33039 times:



Quoting Smi0006 (Reply 9):
I wonder how the EK a345 schedule is fairing one aircraft down? Will there bee a need for any adjustmens or have they already been made?

The most likely thing is they would use 77L capacity to make up for the missing 345




for those of you who don't know aircraft concerned is A340-541 (msn 608) A6-ERG.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1525 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 32987 times:

I'm guessing if they decided to write it off, if probably suffered damage to the rear
pressure bulkhead.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8977 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 32900 times:

Quoting Mal787 (Reply 3):
Wonder if I could buy a couple of the 1st class seats for my lounge room ?

I'm sure they'll be keeping many, many parts of that aircraft as spares.

PS: interesting that an E170 in the US got its nose cut off and replaced while this aircraft couldn't get a tail replacement. I'd imagine it has to do with structural damage.

[Edited 2009-04-23 20:10:48]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 32647 times:



Quoting N471WN (Thread starter):
This then begs the question as to whether or not a decision to repair or scrap is made with the demand for the aircraft as one of the variables.

Most definitely. The higher the demand the more valuable an aircraft becomes. Of course there are many more varibles than this. It is strictly a financial decision, which of course include the cost to replace with a new aircraft, an used aircraft, or do they really need to replace the aircraft at all. Can they operate their network with one less frame, without impacting the operation beyond what they determine to be acceptable.

It is a shame to see it is being scrapped.

MD


User currently offlineMAN2SIN2BKK From Germany, joined Feb 2009, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 32601 times:

Shame that Dan Air London aren't in business any more; they would have had it flying again no problem - I remember the B727 with the hump!!!!!!!

User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 32410 times:

EK can´t be in a good economic situation if true as just for the prestige I expect them to repair it.....

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 32158 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
PS: interesting that an E170 in the US got its nose cut off and replaced while this aircraft couldn't get a tail replacement. I'd imagine it has to do with structural damage.

The rear fuselage is a more critical area than the nose. There are more complicated load paths due to the empennage and rear pressure bulkhead especially.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 17):
EK can´t be in a good economic situation if true as just for the prestige I expect them to repair it.....

As others have said, it's probably not EK's decision. Even if it was, EK is running a business not a museum. There's no prestige in repairing something that is damaged beyond its value.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 32105 times:



Quoting Trojanclipper (Reply 11):
I know this sounds silly, but do you think that the airline was considering past repairs of tailstrikes that later proved fatal, a.k.a. China Airlines flight 611 ???

That was a case of a repair that was done improperly, no different than the engine detachment that downed an American Airlines DC-10. That is not to say that it could not have been repaired correctly in CI case.

But we are talking an entirely different situation here. It's certainly possible that the damage was more extensive and could not be repaired safely or at reasonable cost.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31868 times:



Quoting PM (Reply 5):
Wow, the A340NG has had its share of bad luck. IB at Quito, Etihad in Toulouse and now this. Shame. Sad



Quoting Flood (Reply 10):

"Emirates Airlines decided on Apr 21st, that the airplane will be repaired in Melbourne to a point, where it can perform an unpressurized ferry to Airbus Industries in Toulouse, where repairs will be completed."

If they can get the ship to Toulouse, they should be able to mate it with the back half off the Etihad ship that they have in the spare parts bin.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCgagn From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 31722 times:



Quoting Trojanclipper (Reply 11):
I know this sounds silly, but do you think that the airline was considering past repairs of tailstrikes that later proved fatal, a.k.a. China Airlines flight 611 ???

I'm not trying to criticize or be funny, just wonder if airlines ever think about these thinking in making decisions, or is it all financially motivated....Yes, I do know it's the airline industry we're talking about...

Japan Airlines lost a 747SR in the 1985 due to an improperly repaired rear pressure bulkhead. Still the worst single aircraft crash in terms of loss of life, 520 people died.

C-GAGN



Widebodies flown on: A330-300,A340-300,A380-800,747-400,767-200ER,767-300ER,777-200A,777-200ER,777-200LR,777-300ER
User currently offlineLinglesou From Australia, joined Apr 2009, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 31680 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
no different than the engine detachment that downed an American Airlines DC-10

...same with the JL B747-SR JA8119, aircraft involved in flight 123...

In the same topic vane, is it true or merely an urban legend that it was not really economically viable to repair the QF 744 involved in the flight 1 incident at Bangkok but QANTAS went ahead with it so as to not have a jet aircraft hull loss on their record?



YOU SHALL BUILD A TURTLE FENCE
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 31657 times:

Doesn't surprise me considering EK goes through planes like office paper...
Although I have to shed a small  cry  because the A345 is my fav. aircraft currently flying.

I do wonder on a related note, how much exactly is an A345 worth on the secondary market? US$75 million or about?



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineRsg85 From Australia, joined Aug 2006, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 31521 times:

The pressure bulkhead is cracked and not just a minor one

25 ZBBYLW : Haha it could be called the A345.5 half 346 half 345!
26 Gulfstream650 : Exactly, although I obviously am not privy to the insurance contract, I would assume that the insurance company would have the option to either pay f
27 OHLHD : Tell that QF.....and others.
28 VirginFlyer : I believe it had a lot more to do with the cost of replacing the aircraft, and the wait that would be involved. V/F
29 Pilotaydin : This reminds me of the JAL 747 that tail struck in 1985, and 7 years later, blew the tail cone off along with most of the vertical stab, sending it i
30 EK413 : Ever watch World's Toughest Fixer's on Discovery? The amount of work which is required to repair such damage is fer nominal... Plus not to mention th
31 Ncfc99 : Will this be the first hull loss for EK if it is indeed writen off?
32 FlySSC : Wrong. F-BVFD was flown back to CDG after the incident at DKR in 1977. It was repaired and went back into service until May 1982 when it was withdraw
33 Acabgd : It's not an urban legend. It cost more than A$100 million to repair (in then dollars, meaning much more than what A$100m is worth now) and it was don
34 Marara : QF had the aircraft repaired because it would cost the company more to wait for another 744 - aircraft were extremely hard to come by at that time an
35 Vivekman2006 : Plus it could signal the "merger" of the two UAE based carriers.
36 NA : I would trust avherald´s reports more than the ATDB which is full of inaccuracies.
37 Acabgd : True as well. Actually I think it was a sound decision - yes it did cost a lot of money, but there was no replacement available and waiting for a new
38 RonProphet : For what it is worth, the info I have (which admittedly is secondand) is that the plan as at last Wednesday (April 22) was to fly it back to Toulouse
39 LongHaul67 : I saw that program where the Boeing AOG Team repaired the rear bulkhead of a B763 in Paris. I guess it only illustrates the problem with the A345 and
40 NA : That this aircraft (VH-OJH) was repaired soundly and justfully can be seen by that its flying troublefree since 10 years. The right decision for sure
41 CHRISBA777ER : Hope this is not true. Gutted.
42 Par13del : Another thought, why does the manufacturer who made the a/c not purchase it and repair, refurbish then lease or sell to another operator at a reduced
43 Mcdu : Sorry to ask if it has already been posted..... But, are there photos of the damage to the aircraft?
44 LTBEWR : How much say does an a/c maker, in this case Airbus, have in making the decision as to repairs? While there may be economic variables to be considered
45 Jorge1812 : Also thought that this is the case so Emirates doesn't have to face a hull loss in statistics. georg
46 Post contains links VirginFlyer : Rather good picture of the damage at http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...er-emirates-a340-500-accident.html V/F
47 Reflectiveman : Didn't CO have a tail-strike in Newark some years back with a 777 where basically the whole rear of the aircraft from the wing on back was removed to
48 NA : I cant remember that, but definitely Malaysia Airlines had a serious tailstrike with a 777 which was repaired.
49 Nomadd22 : If the strike was heavy enough is there a chance they would have had to have done a D check to get it recertified?
50 CX777Fan : Is this the first incident on Australian soil leading to the write off of a civil jet-liner? If so, I'm very surprised the media aren't all over it! (
51 777STL : Surely not. I remember a hard landing a few years ago somewhere in OZ with a QF Link 717 that resulted in the aircraft being written off.
52 DZ09 : I am sure that this is not an arbitrary decision. Since the insurance company is going to fork out some serious cash, I am sure they had no other choi
53 RichM : What happens to the pilots in these cases? Is it likely that they will lose their jobs? Or do they just go through a re-training period? And would it
54 Cloudyapple : I just came back from Dubai and I noticed at least 3 other A345s were parked around the airport at remote/maintenance stands. It was 1830L so it was n
55 Post contains links and images FlySSC : Yep ! in ZRH, July 2004 :
56 CAL764 : Yep...Boeing had to haul in a new rear pressure bulkhead on I believe to be an AN-124. Took some months to get completely fixed.
57 Theengineer : Why unpressurized? Did the tail strike affect the pressurization system?
58 OldAeroGuy : Because you might not want to pressurize a damaged aft pressure bulkhead?
59 CPH-R : Probably due to the damage to the rear bulkhead. If the aircraft is pressurised, it could potentially end up as JAL123 which had its tail blown off.
60 Masped : Based on those numbers, the decision would be to make the repair. Cost to insurance company of making the repair: $70m Cost to insurance company of w
61 BMI727 : Having the rear pressure bulkhead damaged would be a very expensive and long repair.
62 Nomadd22 : You're assuming the value of the repaired plane would be the same as before the damage. That's not the case.
63 YULWinterSkies : These will be used on other aircraft later again for sure. Revelation, you win!!!!!
64 DZ09 : Good point. That's an important factor to consider during the cost study which might make repairing the aircraft a more expensive option.
65 Masped : The value of the repaired plane is irrelevant. The insurer will either pay you the insured value of the item in exchange for surrendering the item to
66 SQ_EK_freak : Well in this case they "resigned". Management said that they "didn't know why" but accepted the resignations...hmm....
67 RJAF : Aircraft are usually insured on an 'agreed' value basis and not on market value. In most cases, if the cost of repair exceeds 75% of the 'agreed' val
68 ClassicLover : The urban legend is the $100m and the fact that it was done so QF wouldn't have a write-off. Apparently the repair did not cost $100m (these are Aust
69 Nomadd22 : Insurance policies aren't all the same, but they generally cover the loss. If the repair doesn't return the item to it's previous value, they often c
70 Masped : Indeed, but the agreed value is generally pretty close to the market value - after all, in the event that you have a total loss, you would expect to
71 RJAF : Not necessarily.. I currently insure two Boeing 727 VIPs with almost the same manufacturing year, one has an agreed value of USD 1.5M and one has an
72 Acabgd : Maybe it was media speculation, but with the nose gear stuck up in the first class, engine(s) and undercarriage ripped off I think they're not much o
73 ClassicLover : Still speculation, and the annual report from that year didn't mention it in any such figure, which they would have had to as they are a publicly lis
74 YWG : Well they screwed up the weight calcs, so I bet they're either: a)Flying twins in a third world country b)Retired That's going to be a fun flight wit
75 Max550 : Yeah, MEL-TLS is 10,494 miles, I have a feeling it would get old pretty fast. When they do that flight, what altitude would they fly at and would the
76 AerorobNZ : Have seen the engineering photos of this incident, and it certainly didn't look like a write off from the pictures, but there may be more info to hand
77 Brons2 : I once flew unpressurized on an AA 727 DFW-IAH. We cruised at 8,000 feet. This was a revenue flight BTW.
78 Bravo1six : Because they need to pay out cash to acquire it and for the repairs and then carry it on their books until sold, all in the hopes that they may be ab
79 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : You probably mean "jet" write-off. QF has had write-offs and accidents (some with fatalities) involving propeller types in their earlier days.The L10
80 Post contains links and images Vhqpa : If your talking about the NC 717 that had the hard Landing in DRW a year ago that wasn't a write off. The aircraft (VH-NXE) was repaired in Darwin by
81 AirbusA370 : Isn't the 340NG bulkhead made from CFRP? So a crack would be almost impossible to repair. I wonder what would happen to a 787 in such a situation. Al
82 757GB : Sorry for the question if this has been answered already, but I just have not seen it. Is there any confirmation besides ATDB that the EK A345 will be
83 Post contains links Trent1000 : Further to the near crash investigation: http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,25387505-5014090,00.html So, EK does not (officially) have a "pun
84 AirNZ : What problem exactly are you suggesting it is 'illustrating'? However, where/when have they indicated that they are not doing so?
85 Revelation : Interesting part of the article to me was: The other stuff about blame-culture, sleep deprivation and thrust reduction all seem secondary to a comput
86 Rsg85 : Sure is
87 EK413 : They don't repair the bulk head if that's what your wondering, they replace the bulk head with a new one... EK413
88 LongHaul67 : When it is not economically feasible to repair the bulkhead of an aircraft as expensive as an A345 I believe that clearly illustrates a profitability
89 Jorge1812 : Keep in mind that an expensive repair is better for image than a write-off in yellow press statistics. georg
90 777STL : You're right, but it was very nearly a write off. It cost $4 million to repair VH-NXE.
91 Max Q : That's interesting, I had not heard about that incident. What puzzles me is that Concorde had a tail wheel to protect it from such damage.
92 Flighty : True, if the repair is successful and doesn't kill people later.
93 Phollingsworth : In both of the aft bulkhead repairs that cause accidents, they repairs were not executed properly or in a way to facilitate inspections. A properly d
94 NA : True. But the opposition from Boeing (772LR) isn´t selling like hot cakes too. Most airlines dont need the (expensive) ultra-longhaul capabilities t
95 Trex8 : wasn't the issue more along the lines that no one can show what was exactly done as the original paperwork had been ditched years ago (thanks Taiwan
96 Osiris30 : *ANY* more than 'scratch' damage to a rear pressure bulkhead usually means replace it. Aluninum or CFRP. That's one area you don't f*** around. It's
97 Jorge1812 : Any new infos about scrapping or not? More and more forums reporting the scrapping but nothing I really thrust. georg
98 Post contains links Flood : The forums feed off one another spreading both fact and fiction alike. I'm not buying into the scrapping just yet as I imagine AVherald would have pi
99 Post contains links 757GB : Update As per Flightglobal.com, no decision yet: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...er-to-repair-damaged-a340-500.html
100 StealthZ : Not an airliner but many years ago when I was in the car audio business I read of a aircraft fitout company in the US that was hired to redo the inte
101 Flood : Surely, this is either an urban myth or the installers had the collective IQ of an empty box of poptarts.
102 AustrianZRH : That suggests to me that it will be repaired rather than written off. Wouldn't they otherwise have said something like "The final decision if the air
103 DRAIGONAIR : ""Sources said a report due on Thursday was expected to show the near-catastrophic accident happened after the incorrect weight was typed into the pla
104 Pellegrine : The Concorde incident that happened to F-BVFD in Nov. 1977 @ DKR was during landing. Pitch was too great and the descent rate was apparently about 50
105 Post contains links Travelhound : The ATSB report is out. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,28124,25408944-23349,00.html http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...2009/AAIR/pdf
106 LTBEWR : I would presume the various recorders, or memory-recording chips in the flight computers especially as this was a relatively newer aircraft, had the i
107 FlyingAY : The article in previous posting would indicate that the airline is considering if it will be repaired in Australia or France, not if the plane will be
108 757GB : 100 tonnes difference... yep, that will do it... It looks like the pressure bulkhead was indeed damaged. That's a major cost driver. Another point tha
109 Post contains links VirginFlyer : A serious mistake yes, but one as easy as typing a 2 instead of a 3. Resigning the pilots does absolutely nothing to improve safety or prevent this f
110 Rwessel : Given that this was not that severe an impact, I wonder if this will lead to changes in the rules regarding the mounting of the FDR and CVR. Tail stri
111 XT6Wagon : Most insurance companies will "total" something when salvage value + repair cost > value at time of occurance. So if you do 15million in damage to a 3
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