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Alaska Orders 4 More New 737s  
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6295 times:

AS today announced that they are taking options on 4 additional 737-800s. It is good to here news like that going on when every other story is about deferrals!

So far there have been 28 737 orders this year and no cancellations. The little bird keeps going!


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6252 times:

Thanks for the information!
Indeed it's great to hear in these times. As much as we talk about 787, 777, A380, I'm really crossing my fingers for the good old 37 to keep moving forward even this year.

Regards,
GB



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5410 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6175 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
So far there have been 28 737 orders this year and no cancellations.

Operators and financing banks alike can see that these frames have a solid future, between all of the increasingly old MD-80s and 737 classics that need retirement, and the short-haul growth that will happen once the economy recovers.

IMO there is much less risk of severe overcapacity problems in the short-haul market than in the long-haul one right now.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5943 times:



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 2):

Operators and financing banks alike can see that these frames have a solid future, between all of the increasingly old MD-80s and 737 classics that need retirement, and the short-haul growth that will happen once the economy recovers.

And that's why the 737 is the cash cow for Boeing which helps pay the bills for all the widebody development.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineLegacytravel From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1067 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5924 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
And that's why the 737 is the cash cow for Boeing which helps pay the bills for all the widebody development.

That should be the quote of the week.  Wink .

It is good that Boeing did get a firm order even if for only 4 units.


Mark in MKE



I love the smell of Jet fuel in the Morning
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5894 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
And that's why the 737 is the cash cow for Boeing which helps pay the bills for all the widebody development.

I'm sure the T7 program has contributed some what to this as well as the military arm and maintenance side of the business.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offline737-990 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5834 times:

The 737-800 has proven to be the perfect aircraft for Alaska, it has the right mix of range and capacity, both for pax and cargo needed on the AS route system. If my math is correct then this brings AS commitment to the 738 to 65 frames, of which 46 are already in service. It will be interesting to see if AS uses the planes for growth or continues what it has done this year and begin retiring some the 737-400s and 737-700s in its fleet on a one-for-one basis. I guess it all depends on what the economy does, either way AS will have flexibility to adjust to market conditions.


Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5780 times:



Quoting 737-990 (Reply 6):
The 737-800 has proven to be the perfect aircraft for Alaska, it has the right mix of range and capacity, both for pax and cargo needed on the AS route system. If my math is correct then this brings AS commitment to the 738 to 65 frames, of which 46 are already in service. It will be interesting to see if AS uses the planes for growth or continues what it has done this year and begin retiring some the 737-400s and 737-700s in its fleet on a one-for-one basis. I guess it all depends on what the economy does, either way AS will have flexibility to adjust to market conditions.

Word around here is that we will get rid of -400s on a one-for-one basis first and then evaluate growth from there. While the -700 is not as good as the -800, it at least has decent economics compared to the -400. These firmed up options I would suspect will be for some growth potential since they will come at the end of the delivery cycle.


User currently offlineWeAreUnited From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 423 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

However, my trust in Alaska management is huge compared to my trust in United management when I was with them.

Still.... seems a bit odd to be getting rid of an aircraft requiring 3 Flight Attendants for an aircraft requiring 4 FA's for an airline that's not growing.


User currently offlineUnmlobo From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5680 times:



Quoting WeAreUnited (Reply 8):

I have always wondered that myself, why AS put 157 (first 160) seats in the 738s when they were replacing the MD-80s who only sat 140, since it adds the expense of the 4th FA. Even the -400s only seat 144 that they will now be replacing.

Obviously though someone has crunched the numbers and they must fill those extra 7 seats often enough to justify the expense of a 4th FA on every flight the -800s operate.



The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of Southwest Airlines its Directors or its Employees
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5641 times:



Quoting Unmlobo (Reply 9):
I have always wondered that myself, why AS put 157 (first 160) seats in the 738s when they were replacing the MD-80s who only sat 140, since it adds the expense of the 4th FA. Even the -400s only seat 144 that they will now be replacing.

Obviously though someone has crunched the numbers and they must fill those extra 7 seats often enough to justify the expense of a 4th FA on every flight the -800s operate.

I don't have numbers, but I wonder if the trip cost for a 737-800 even with 4 FAs is still less than the MD-80 with 3 FAs? The 30-35% difference in fuel burn the 738 enjoys would go a long way towards covering the additional crew member. If that was the case, those extra 17 seats are essentially pure profit when filled and no liability when unfilled.


User currently offlineEXTspotter From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5636 times:



Quoting Unmlobo (Reply 9):
Obviously though someone has crunched the numbers and they must fill those extra 7 seats often enough to justify the expense of a 4th FA on every flight the -800s operate.

If it didn't it would just buy more 737-700s or possibly even increase seating on the -800. If it really was a problem, they could do a FR and make it 189 with 4 FAs.



AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5615 times:



Quoting Unmlobo (Reply 9):
I have always wondered that myself, why AS put 157 (first 160) seats in the 738s when they were replacing the MD-80s who only sat 140, since it adds the expense of the 4th FA. Even the -400s only seat 144 that they will now be replacing.

When you have a full flight on most 738 flights, that makes money. So the 4th FA requirement isn't much of an issue.


Does anyone know if all of the AS 738's will be ETOPS? (Yes, I am asking of every single one of them will/are).



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineCXH From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5500 times:



Quoting Unmlobo (Reply 9):
Obviously though someone has crunched the numbers and they must fill those extra 7 seats often enough to justify the expense of a 4th FA on every flight the -800s operate.

Dumb question here, which I'm pretty sure of the answer: an airline is only required to have enough FAs for the number of pax on board, not the number of seats, right?

So if they only have 150 pax on a particular 738 flight, they only need 3 FAs on board?



I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
User currently offline737-990 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5476 times:



Quoting CXH (Reply 13):
Dumb question here, which I'm pretty sure of the answer: an airline is only required to have enough FAs for the number of pax on board, not the number of seats, right?

It's the other way around. Every 50 seats require an F/A.



Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5373 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
I don't have numbers, but I wonder if the trip cost for a 737-800 even with 4 FAs is still less than the MD-80 with 3 FAs? The 30-35% difference in fuel burn the 738 enjoys would go a long way towards covering the additional crew member. If that was the case, those extra 17 seats are essentially pure profit when filled and no liability when unfilled.

That's exactly why we're trying to go to all -800s. That extra FA isn't much extra compared to the efficiency gains over the MD or the -400, even with the thing less than full.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Does anyone know if all of the AS 738's will be ETOPS? (Yes, I am asking of every single one of them will/are).

No only the current 10 I believe unless we add Hawaii flying. There are costs to keeping them current I believe that would be prohibitive for the whole fleet to be maintained. Also interesting to note...there are currency requirements for the pilot group as well and right now only ANC and LAX based pilots are ETOPS qualified and probably will remain the only ones for a while. The cost to keep the entire SEA base recurrent is too high for the number of Hawaii flights we have.


User currently offlineBayAreaBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5334 times:



Quoting 737-990 (Reply 6):
If my math is correct then this brings AS commitment to the 738 to 65 frames, of which 46 are already in service.

To be more correct, 49 737-890's are curently in service, we get 2 more this year.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
Quoting Unmlobo (Reply 9):
I have always wondered that myself, why AS put 157 (first 160) seats in the 738s when they were replacing the MD-80s who only sat 140, since it adds the expense of the 4th FA. Even the -400s only seat 144 that they will now be replacing.

Obviously though someone has crunched the numbers and they must fill those extra 7 seats often enough to justify the expense of a 4th FA on every flight the -800s operate.

I don't have numbers, but I wonder if the trip cost for a 737-800 even with 4 FAs is still less than the MD-80 with 3 FAs? The 30-35% difference in fuel burn the 738 enjoys would go a long way towards covering the additional crew member. If that was the case, those extra 17 seats are essentially pure profit when filled and no liability when unfilled.

Also note that the 737-800 has a much greater range than the MD-80 and allowed AS to expand it's reach. Although the 700 can (and does) make the East Coast, the -800 is better suited.

Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 15):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Does anyone know if all of the AS 738's will be ETOPS? (Yes, I am asking of every single one of them will/are).

No only the current 10 I believe unless we add Hawaii flying.

Currently there are 15 ETOPS certified aircraft in the fleet. Most of the other 800's that are non-ETOPS do have the ability to be converted to ETOPS.


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5294 times:



Quoting BayAreaBlue (Reply 16):
Currently there are 15 ETOPS certified aircraft in the fleet. Most of the other 800's that are non-ETOPS do have the ability to be converted to ETOPS.

Thanks for the correction. How easy is it to convert them and is there a recurrent process they must go through to maintain ETOPS like pilots?


User currently offlineUnmlobo From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4425 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):

When you have a full flight on most 738 flights, that makes money. So the 4th FA requirement isn't much of an issue.

That was the answer I was looking for. If the seats get filled most of the time with paying customers then it would justify. However, if the seats are not getting filled then the 4th FA is a huge expense even if the costs to operate are still less to operate than the MD or -400 as cutting the 7 seats out of the airplane would accomplish two missions; cut capacity in slow demand environment and reduce labor costs.

Those 7 extra seats must be full, I don't know maybe 90%+ of the time in order to justify the costs. I would guess those 7 seats add about 150 FAs to the payroll (approximate ratio of 3 crews to 1 airplane, two shifts during the day and one crew off?)



The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of Southwest Airlines its Directors or its Employees
User currently offlineUAL757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 806 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Awesome news. The new birds are a pleasure to fly on.

I also noticed that AS will be getting rid of 3 737-700's by 30-Jun-09. 18 to 15.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4187 times:



Quoting Hatbutton (Reply 15):
There are costs to keeping them current I believe that would be prohibitive for the whole fleet to be maintained.

I disagree. You can incorporate that mx procedure into a regular routine task for all AS 738's and still save money.

Quoting UAL757 (Reply 19):
I also noticed that AS will be getting rid of 3 737-700's by 30-Jun-09.

:-( The 73G is the sexiest plane, IMO. Sad to see AS shrinking those!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineUAL757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 806 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4170 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
The 73G is the sexiest plane, IMO. Sad to see AS shrinking those!

I think AS used to have 21 73G's, so they are shrinking the 700 fleet even more.

Besides, it's too short, the 739's too long, and the 738 is just right.  Wink


User currently offlineHatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3888 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
I disagree. You can incorporate that mx procedure into a regular routine task for all AS 738's and still save money.

I wasn't stating that this was my opinion. This is what I have heard from others within the airline. Don't know if it's 100% correct but it seems to make sense the same as not training SEA crews to keep them recurrent all the time.


User currently offlineCschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3507 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 10):
I don't have numbers, but I wonder if the trip cost for a 737-800 even with 4 FAs is still less than the MD-80 with 3 FAs? The 30-35% difference in fuel burn the 738 enjoys would go a long way towards covering the additional crew member. If that was the case, those extra 17 seats are essentially pure profit when filled and no liability when unfilled.

The other way to look at it as well is similar to Southwest. One reasons they have stuck with the -300, -500 and -700 is the same number of FA's, not so much the number itself. It makes crew scheduling more easier....no having to figure out the mix of three and four-person FA crews when they move from one type to another. So even through AS's adding -800's adds a FA, if they have more of the type that require the same number of FA's, there probably are scheduling efficiencies.


User currently offlineFlywithken From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3220 times:



Quoting CXH (Reply 13):
Dumb question here, which I'm pretty sure of the answer: an airline is only required to have enough FAs for the number of pax on board, not the number of seats, right?

So if they only have 150 pax on a particular 738 flight, they only need 3 FAs on board?

Incorrect. Per part 121 regulations [121.391(a)(4)] states that it is based upon how many seats are on the airplane. The exact wording is:

The airline will provide at least "For airplanes having a seating capacity of mare than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.

So if there are 10 people booked on a 737-800 with a seating capacity of 157, there will be four flight attendants

Ken


25 AirframeAS : Keeping them recurrant, mx-wise, is a lot easier than you think. I was not speaking specifically about crew recurrent training.
26 EA CO AS : Yes, the 738 cost is lower, and substantially so on a CASM basis.
27 AirframeAS : Could we eventually see the AS 73G fleet on its way out??
28 EA CO AS : I'd doubt it, although there's little chance AS will ever add to the 73G fleet.
29 JayinKitsap : I've done 4 flights with AS to the east coast in the last 6 months, all have been packed. They often are the only non-stop to Boston, DC, Orlando, or
30 Wedgetail737 : I would expect to see the 734's gone before the 73G's go away.
31 FlyPBA : well ... I think we'll see the 734Cs and 734F for quite a while
32 BayAreaBlue : Usually takes a few days for the conversion to ETOPS since the A/C being converted come with ETOPS provisions. As for recurrent process, the parts on
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