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When Will SQ Retire Its A330-300 Fleet? In 2012/3?  
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11529 times:

When will SQ retire its A 330-300 fleet? In 2012/2013 when the B 787 comes in I suppose?

I know the A 330-300s are for short term and they won't last long in SQ's fleet. What a pity

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3025 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11493 times:



Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
I know the A 330-300s are for short term and they won't last long in SQ's fleet. What a pity

???

I am not sure where you got that from!

They are only just arriving now into the fleet, and have spent a fortune introducing a new short/medium haul product.

If they were only keeping them for a short period of 3-4 years, they would probably never have introduced them and kept the 777's which are only about 10yrs old they are replacing now!


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11422 times:

Hmm....I'd guess 2013-2015 for the A333s to start making an exit from the SQ fleet, as the birds will have undergone significant depreciation by then and could be flipped to other carriers at a profit, assuming the global aviation market has largely recovered by then.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11075 times:



Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
When will SQ retire its A 330-300 fleet? In 2012/2013 when the B 787 comes in I suppose?

I know the A 330-300s are for short term and they won't last long in SQ's fleet. What a pity

All of SQ's 19 333s are on 5-6 year leases and will leave the fleet in 2013-2015 assuming the 787-9 gets delivered in 2013.


User currently offlineHuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10852 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
???

I am not sure where you got that from!

They are only just arriving now into the fleet, and have spent a fortune introducing a new short/medium haul product.

If they were only keeping them for a short period of 3-4 years, they would probably never have introduced them and kept the 777's which are only about 10yrs old they are replacing now!

Actually, he is right. The A333s are on short-term lease from day one, and are a bargain which SQ twisted out of Airbus due to the A380 delays.

The Boeing 787-9s were actually meant to replace the B777s from 2011, but with delays in both the B787 and A380 programs, the airline came up with a rather smart solution. And to make sure both boeing and Airbus are kept on their toes, the airline makes an A350 order as well just 6 months later.

Why this willingness to change aircraft so quickly? Because it has been long known that the B777s, despite being derated, are limiting its flexibility on nurturing its regional market, forcing it to shift much of the thinner regional traffic to its MI subsidiary. It needs a better suited aircraft first, and it simply cannot entertain further delays in the B787 or A350 programs. So when the A333s arrive, the airline pulled out all the stops to overhaul its regional market, especially the all-important Australian market where transitting passengers may find themselves in a substandard regional aircraft right after experiencing the joys of the A380 or the B77W!



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineQuetzal From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10483 times:



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 3):

All of SQ's 19 333s are on 5-6 year leases and will leave the fleet in 2013-2015 assuming the 787-9 gets delivered in 2013.

Who are they leased from?



No matter how far you push the envelope, it will always remain Stationery.
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10477 times:



Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 4):
Why this willingness to change aircraft so quickly? Because it has been long known that the B777s, despite being derated, are limiting its flexibility on nurturing its regional market, forcing it to shift much of the thinner regional traffic to its MI subsidiary. It needs a better suited aircraft first, and it simply cannot entertain further delays in the B787 or A350 programs.

I thought the issue was that the regional 777-200s are too big for the routes SQ uses them on. In that case why replace them with A330-300s which are approximately the same capacity? Why not A330-200s? I'm guessing it is because the A333 is more efficient for the routes SQ is flying because of significantly lighter OEW versus the 772.

Also I was wondering why SQ didn't just upgrade the interiors of their 772As. If the 77W can take the new interiors, any 777 can presumably. But then again, they like to keep their fleet age young.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineRafflesKing From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10317 times:



Quoting Quetzal (Reply 5):
Who are they leased from?

6 are coming from LCI.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10217 times:



Quoting RafflesKing (Reply 7):
6 are coming from LCI.

And 6 from AWAS. The remaining 7 have yet to be placed with a lessor, as far as I know.

Note: Airbus logged the order for 19 long before first AWAS and then LCI stepped up to take over the leases. I assume that Airbus is still talking to leasing companies about taking the remaining aircraft.


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9910 times:



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 3):
All of SQ's 19 333s are on 5-6 year leases and will leave the fleet in 2013-2015 assuming the 787-9 gets delivered in 2013.



Quoting Huaiwei (Reply 4):
The A333s are on short-term lease from day one

What other kind are there? Do airlines lease aircraft on 10 or 20-year terms? It seems unlikely as the a principal purpose for leasing aircraft is to accommodate short to medium term needs. Same with automobiles. Of course, standard car leases come with buyout provisions at the end of the lease term and I suspect that aircraft leases do as well.


User currently offlineBW424 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 1432 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9748 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 9):
What other kind are there? Do airlines lease aircraft on 10 or 20-year terms? It seems unlikely as the a principal purpose for leasing aircraft is to accommodate short to medium term needs. Same with automobiles. Of course, standard car leases come with buyout provisions at the end of the lease term and I suspect that aircraft leases do as well.

Yes, their are airlines that lease aircraft for up to 12 years.



It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10038 posts, RR: 96
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9612 times:
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Quoting Eghansen (Reply 9):
What other kind are there? Do airlines lease aircraft on 10 or 20-year terms?

As far as I'm aware, SQ A380's are on 10 year leases
I will happily stand corrected

Rgds


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9199 times:

I suppose when the economy improves, SQ will order extra A 380s. Let's say another 10-11?

They still have options


User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8864 times:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):

As far as I'm aware, SQ A380's are on 10 year leases
I will happily stand corrected

IIRC, only the first 3 SQ 388s (SKA/B/C) are on 10 year leases. They were sold to Doric Asset Finance in early 2008.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 12):
I suppose when the economy improves, SQ will order extra A 380s. Let's say another 10-11?

They still have options

Just 6 more options for the 388. I guess SQ will only exercise them if the market shows signs of recovery else we won't see any future 388 orders from SQ. The 389 is still largely a paper aircraft so we can exclude it for the time being as Airbus is pushing for more 358/9 orders.

[Edited 2009-04-27 01:07:32]

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8733 times:



Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
When will SQ retire its A 330-300 fleet? In 2012/2013 when the B 787 comes in I suppose?

The 330 was obtained through a very complicated set of issues. The first issue was the delay in the 380 and the second was the on again off again 350. SQ was one of the launch customers for the 350 and Airbus dropped the project for re-evaluation. The 350XWB was the result. SQ has some on order but to keep the order Airbus had to come up with an interim capacity solution. Enter the 330. The 330 will most likely go on a 1 for 1 swap with the 350.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8355 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 6):
I thought the issue was that the regional 777-200s are too big for the routes SQ uses them on. In that case why replace them with A330-300s which are approximately the same capacity? Why not A330-200s? I'm guessing it is because the A333 is more efficient for the routes SQ is flying because of significantly lighter OEW versus the 772.

The A333 will still be a fine regional aircraft after the 787 and A350 come on stream, as both of them are more geared towards long haul operations, so I'm not sure how much more efficient the 787s would be on these routes?



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7969 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
The 330 will most likely go on a 1 for 1 swap with the 350.

From what I understand, the 333s will be replaced by the 787-9s which are 2-class and deployed to short and medium haul destinations up to 8 hrs with 1/3 night and 2/3 day deployments. The 359s will replacing the newer 772/773s.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10038 posts, RR: 96
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7598 times:
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Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
SQ was one of the launch customers for the 350 and Airbus dropped the project for re-evaluation.

As a check for understanding, did SQ actually ORDER the original A350? It may be the onset of age, but I don't recall this  old 

Rgds


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7379 times:



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 19):
SQ was one of the launch customers for the 350 and Airbus dropped the project for re-evaluation.

I don't think they ordered the "warmed over a330" version. But they were THE launch customer for the XWB, announced at the same time that Airbus launched it. At that time it was to contain a lot less composite than the current version, it has gone through a few major design iterations since launch.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7229 times:



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 19):
As a check for understanding, did SQ actually ORDER the original A350? It may be the onset of age, but I don't recall this

No, they were the first to order the a350XWB though... I believe it was at Farnborough... might have been the Paris airshow.... guess I'm feeling the effects of age as well  Wink



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7040 times:

So eventually SQ will operate BOTH the B 787 as well as the A 350 right?

User currently offlineTreeHillRavens From Malaysia, joined Jun 2007, 398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6896 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 20):
So eventually SQ will operate BOTH the B 787 as well as the A 350 right?

Yes.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6418 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 6):
I thought the issue was that the regional 777-200s are too big for the routes SQ uses them on. In that case why replace them with A330-300s which are approximately the same capacity?

At same cabin length and 9-abreast for the former and 8-abreast for the latter, it is pretty clear the A333 is not as big, albeit almost as big. Much lighter in the case of the A333, and the 772 has been designed for long to ultra-long haul missions, unlike the A333 (short to long haul only).

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 6):
Why not A330-200s?

Again, this aircraft was designed for longer missions, although some carriers seem to opertae it on shorter routes successfully (QF).



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineAviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6318 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 20):
So eventually SQ will operate BOTH the B 787 as well as the A 350 right?

SQ will operate B787, A350 along with the current A380's  Wink


User currently offlineHuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6038 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 6):
I thought the issue was that the regional 777-200s are too big for the routes SQ uses them on.

Yeap same thing as what I was suggesting. The B777s are so big it is difficult to fly on thinner routes profitably, hence the inflexibility and the need to hand them over to MI.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 6):
I'm guessing it is because the A333 is more efficient for the routes SQ is flying because of significantly lighter OEW versus the 772.

This more of less aligns with what most of us think. The 772s are just overkill and less cost-efficient compared to the A333 on those regional routes, some of which have flight times shorter than 30 minutes!

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 6):
In that case why replace them with A330-300s which are approximately the same capacity? Why not A330-200s?

I suspect this may also be because the airline would rather be stuck with the A333 which can perform the roles of a B777 on more sectors in the worse case scenario where both the B787 and A350 are delayed.

Then again if the airline had a choice, it would love to have a redesigned A310 which was most suitable for its requirements!

Quoting Aviationbuff (Reply 23):
SQ will operate B787, A350 along with the current A380's

The A350s will be for routes with higher demand while the B787 is for thinner routes, both of which are slated to replace the entire B777 fleet sans the B77Ws.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
25 TreeHillRavens : Actually didn't QF say they find the 332 very unsuitable for their short domestic network ? When they accepted the first 332 it was flying under the
26 Post contains links Slz396 : Indeed... the A330s could very well stay with SQ on their short haul regional runs, even after the 787 arrives. The 787 isn't remotely as efficient o
27 Eghansen : I wonder if Singapore has any idea what they intend to do about their A330s. After all, 5-year leases can be extended easily, pilots trained to fly t
28 Frigatebird : Well, I can't recall the 787-9 being advertised as a medium-short haul aircraft, contrary to the A330-300. But I do agree that SQ may very well keep
29 Quetzal : There were issues with turnaround times on the 1 hour east Coast sectors (SYD-MEL / SYD-BNE). 767's still ideal for the mission. They currently opera
30 Nicholaschee : That's exactly what SQ is intending to do with the 359 and 787-9.
31 Pellegrine : Agreed, but many operators use 772s on short flights. What is Silk Air gonna do with a 777-200? It seems pretty much a given that a B787-900s fuel bu
32 TreeHillRavens : True. Especially in Asia. CX for example, have more than 20x 333 in 2-class regional configuration flying mainly regional flights. What is Silk Air g
33 Kappel : It's not the aircraft that will be handed over to Silk Air, but the routes. Instead of SQ flying these routes with 772's, MI will fly them with their
34 Nicholaschee : Many regional short haul routes that the SQ 772s are currently serving were previously A310-200/300 routes. When the 772s were introduced, the 772 bei
35 Slz396 : The cost savings are up for interpretation indeed, but the longer MX intervals definitely are not... Those are some significantly enhanced maintenanc
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