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Air Canada Pilot Fails Breath Test At LHR  
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3337 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 16015 times:

Reported in todays London Evening Standard newspaper.
Daniel Dufour,45, was taken off his aircraft and arrested after failing a breath test.
The flight was Heathrow Calgary, staff at Terminal 3 smelt alcohol on him. He has been bailed until 12 June. Report does not say if he was Captain or F/O.
No other details given in short report. Expect the flight left later after replacement was found.


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 15992 times:



Quoting Readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Report does not say if he was Captain or F/O.

The Daily Mail is reporting he was the Captain.

Seems you chaps have some quite potent brews on your side of the pond. Big grin



DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3337 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 15964 times:

I recommend "Old Speckled Hen", a wonderful beer, but not before flying.

Quoting DingDong (Reply 1):
Seems you chaps have some quite potent brews on your side of the pond




you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 15937 times:

It could be a number of things though too, like mouthwash etc.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5259 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 15923 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 3):
It could be a number of things though too, like mouthwash etc

With a beautifull cabin crew that would make sense.  Smile


User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7319 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 15876 times:
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Pilot was drunk. I've heard countless stories of flight crew waking up still intoxicated and a simple call-in sick/cover from their mates was necessary. Did this guy really think he'd be able to fly?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...plane-carrying-300-passengers.html


User currently offline767flyguy From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 15728 times:

It was the Relief Pilot, not the Captain. Also, it was a B777-300 that was operating flight 851 to Calgary.

User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7319 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 15705 times:
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Quoting 767flyguy (Reply 6):

It was the Relief Pilot, not the Captain. Also, it was a B777-300 that was operating flight 851 to Calgary.

Leave it to the media to hack up any aviation related news.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 15609 times:

It's also true that the UK has a very low limit for impairment for airline pilots, IIRC, it's one quarter of the legal limit for driving an automobile in the UK. Not an excuse, but it may not be indicative of what we would think of "being sauced".

User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2276 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 15611 times:

I was told by a pilot, who was taking a meal break from the simulator at YYZ, that the Relief Pilot was a late substitution. I know pilot's grapevines can be at times be as inaccurate as any rumour mill, but if true I suppose the relief pilot is only slightly less stupid. And while breathalizers can be influenced by cough medicine, mouth wash, certain gums and mints, I would imagine an actual blood test was taken.

User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 15375 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 9):
I would imagine an actual blood test was taken.

Not necessarily. The terms of the offence in the UK for excess alcohol is "Driving or attempting to drive with a breath-alcohol level in excess of....(whatever the current legal limit is)" I would imagine it is a broadly similar terminology when related to aviation, commercial or private. So a blood test is not required to prosecute.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25843 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 15243 times:

When did this incident occur? The Daily Mail article doesn't say. I assumed it was yesterday (Sunday) but if so, replacing the pilot didn't cause a delay as AC851 departed on time (actually 3 minutes early). Perhaps it was a few days ago and the media has just become aware.

News stories that don't say when an event happened are badly-written.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5128 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 15138 times:

This has been dealt with internally, and the crewmember has already been cleared using a blood test. But, that wouldn't get into the news.

Oddly enough, we have been told that the breath test at LHR has a 7% FALSE positive rate!

Maybe if airlines started charging the authorities for delayed and canceled flights for spurious accusations, then they might get something a bit more accurate. Or better yet ... have a blood test result quicker than SIX WEEKS!

Air Canada's staff physician did the required blood test within 4 hours and the crew member positioned home through YYZ.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1341 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 15127 times:

If the cabin crew smelled alcohol on his breath, then I think we can safely assume it wasn't a tiny amount, or simply mouthwash! Having said that, the Daily Mail is not the most reliable source of information, especially when it comes to aviation.

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5128 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 15102 times:



Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 14):
If the cabin crew smelled alcohol on his breath, then I think we can safely assume it wasn't a tiny amount, or simply mouthwash!

It wasn't the cabin crew, it was a security official .. and what he smelled was cherry chewing gum.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7319 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 14958 times:
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Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
crewmember has already been cleared using a blood test.

If that is the case, then I apologize for the harsh words for the crew member. On the topic of pilots drinking on long layovers - it just doesn't make much sense to risk something you've worked so hard for over a couple drinks.  twocents 


User currently offlineFRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 12877 times:



Quoting Fxramper (Reply 7):
Quoting 767flyguy (Reply 6):

It was the Relief Pilot, not the Captain. Also, it was a B777-300 that was operating flight 851 to Calgary.

Leave it to the media to hack up any aviation related news. Yeah sure

At least this time they were able to match the photo with what was said in the article. Granted it was the WRONG aircraft, I've seen articles where they are mentioning a 747 aircraft while posting a picture of a 757 while the REAL story involved a 777.  Smile



"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 12033 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
This has been dealt with internally, and the crewmember has already been cleared using a blood test. But, that wouldn't get into the news.

Oddly enough, we have been told that the breath test at LHR has a 7% FALSE positive rate!

Maybe if airlines started charging the authorities for delayed and canceled flights for spurious accusations, then they might get something a bit more accurate. Or better yet ... have a blood test result quicker than SIX WEEKS!

Air Canada's staff physician did the required blood test within 4 hours and the crew member positioned home through YYZ.

Thanks for clarifying what happened. I feel bad for the guy and hope LHR staff improves.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2642 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 11859 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
This has been dealt with internally, and the crewmember has already been cleared using a blood test.



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
Oddly enough, we have been told that the breath test at LHR has a 7% FALSE positive rate!

I personally fail to understand how can be the breathalyzer test result used as evidence, or even as a reason for arrest. I personally test liquids containing different alcohols for living and as far as BAC goes, I would never trust anything except a headspace GC system with a DB BAC column.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3085 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 11724 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 9):
nd while breathalizers can be influenced by cough medicine, mouth wash, certain gums and mints,

I am a qualified breath tech for the local police. Mouth wash and cough medicine will only produce a reading within 15 mins of using it(this is scientifically proven and on our course we demonstrated it)....after that time it is completely gone. Now drinking it would be another thing then it would be the same as drinking alcohol.....That is why we use two test 17mins apart...

There is no such thing with a false positive with a breathalizer/intoxilyzer....in fact most underestimate by 9% to account for body temp...

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5128 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 11581 times:



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 19):
There is no such thing with a false positive with a breathalizer/intoxilyzer

So then if 5% to 15% of the time, a breathalizer reports a positive for a specified level of alcohol, then a blood test (the definitive test) reports it as negative ... if it is not a false positive, what is it?

I know that sounded sarcastic, but it is not meant that way. Obviously alcohol compounds are detected, and if you are saying it is accurate 100% of the time (wow!), then what is causing it to detect alcohol in the breath, where it is not in the blood 5% to 15% of the time?



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4743 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 11549 times:

Breath tests are simply not accurate enough to be counted on. I would insist on a blood test with split sample so I could have the other independently tested.


It seems the 'Breath Police' are getting a little carried away these days, I had one security official lean in so close to me while passing through a checkpoint I asked him if we were going to kiss !


I told him I don't even do that on a first date..


I am not advocating drinking and flying but some of these people seem to be on a vendetta these days..



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3085 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 10224 times:

Simple....The level for pilots is very low....Lets use 20Mg/100ml blood...So you screen for alcohol..Take then back to the room....they blow.....They blow 20Mg/100ml.....Now they need to get a nurse to draw the blood plus no one will will consent with out speaking to lawyer or union....So lets say that the time from fail test to blood draw is 1 hr....Not an excessive time..(criminal code here allows 2 hrs)..Well the elimination ratio of alcohol is between 15-20Mg/hr(scientific number directly from my manual which is produced by the center of Forensic science). Therefore the pilot could fail the breath test and still pass the blood test....Now if said pilot is a heavy drinker or alcoholic then the elimination ratio could be as high as 40Mg/hr.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 9286 times:



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
.Now if said pilot is a heavy drinker or alcoholic then the elimination ratio could be as high as 40Mg/hr.

I always wonder what other compounds the breathalysers detect. I rather doubt it is only ethanol that sets them off.

Hmmm. I do not drink ethanol but from time to time I do have to use (not drink) isopropanol as a carrier while polishing samples. I know I stink of it for ages and those in the office tell me I carry the "scent" of it around for quite a while. Happily I have never had to drive soon after polishing with isopropanol but I do wonder from time to time how a booze bus would react to me while in my post isopropanol phase.

For the curious, the isopropanol - with kerosene where necessary - is used in cases where dispersive clays are present, basically mixed layer clays, or worst of all montmorillonite itself.


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2642 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8203 times:



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 19):

There is no such thing with a false positive with a breathalizer/intoxilyzer...

There is no such thing as 100% reliable test method. Period. So whatever your manuals say, there is always a possibility of false positive. It's very seldom, but it happens. Since a false positive can easily destroy one's life (I'd be fired myself for DWI immediately), a safeguard is always necessary.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):
I rather doubt it is only ethanol that sets them off.

 checkmark 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):
Happily I have never had to drive soon after polishing with isopropanol but I do wonder from time to time how a booze bus would react to me while in my post isopropanol phase.

That would be really interesting to know. Don't forget, you may have it in your blood too, since alcohols can be absorbed trough the skin...


25 Greasespot : Intoxilyzer react to acetone, which can be present in diabetics. Can mimic the symptoms of impairment. Gives a interferant message. Methanol can be d
26 Burkhard : All breathanalyzers have a too high error rate to be of any use but: Determine if it is appropriate to order a blood test. The way we breath is diffe
27 Greasespot : Source??? All my information come directly from the manuals produce by the center of forensic science in Ontario..The accuracy of the instrument is +
28 Post contains links Baroque : Happily methanol has a very low boiling point so there is no temptation at all to use it. Interesting, I guess I will have to move my stumps and find
29 WildcatYXU : Now that's just sad...I guess it's good for this pilot that it happened to him in a country where one can defend himself if accused. I'm surprised th
30 767nutter : I just do not understand why they chance it, if you get a few days fine, but why drink the night before? Pure Stupidity in my opinion
31 Readytotaxi : Tuesday evening in the UK and nothing in tv or newspaper to say that it was a false alarm!
32 Jamincan : Well, I took a look at the Criminal Code of Canada, and the situation seems to be that the results of a breath test from an "approved instrument" is c
33 Greasespot : Not a choice in Canada unless you cannot medically provide a sample. Screening device is used at roadside to give grounds to demand a breath test(bre
34 Bjcc : "Tuesday evening in the UK and nothing in tv or newspaper to say that it was a false alarm!" Thats because people are confusing 2 things. He was arres
35 LongHauler : That's because in the eyes of the UK authorities it was not a false alarm ... and that is correct, it was not a false alarm until their blood test is
36 Bjcc : Longhauler The wait for the blood test result wont be 6 weeks, they are usualy back in around 2 weeks. the 6 weeks bail period gives someone the chanc
37 ZBBYLW : Well the rules in Canada are 8 hours bottle to throttle. Now of course some companies (like AC and the Military) have 12 hour limits but that is just
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