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KLM Confirms Premium Economy  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13755 times:

Following the introduction of premium economy cabin in Air France, now KLM has also decided it will fit some aircraft with an additional premium economy cabin to counteract falling demand for the business class product.

It is yet to be decided whether the premium economy cabin will follow AF strategy of new seats, or whether it will just provided added seat pitch, amenity kit and enhanced meal service (like UA product) with the same economy seats.

Currently the possible routes for introduction of the product are also under examination. The premium economy cabin is to be launched by end 2009.

Rgs,

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13684 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
It is yet to be decided whether the premium economy cabin will follow AF strategy of new seats, or whether it will just provided added seat pitch, amenity kit and enhanced meal service (like UA product) with the same economy seats.

If they only enhance service but keep the same seats, then it is useless and nonsense. I would like to pay more for more pitch and width, but I don't need service.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13656 times:

The marketing and commercial studies for AF's "Premium Voyageur" were conducted by AFKL.

Considering the tendency is to harmonize AF & KL in-flight products (cf new Business Class seats), I bet this KL "Premium Economy" should look like the "twin sister" of AF's one, with the same concept : same in-flight food service than regular Y but improved comfort via a new seat, larger pitch and Business Class amenities (Blankets, pillow, kit)


User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13608 times:

This is good news!

Perhaps it will be on the B744 first? As they are starting to retrofit the B744 (in June), they are getting PTV's!

Any idea what the cabin/seats will look like?



seemyseems
User currently offlineKLMA330 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 697 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13585 times:

Hopefully on the Toronto route!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13588 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
It is yet to be decided whether the premium economy cabin will follow AF strategy of new seats, or whether it will just provided added seat pitch, amenity kit and enhanced meal service (like UA product) with the same economy seats.

The latter would be ironic since KL's original type of a business class product (when that name didn't even exist) used regular Y seats in a curtained off section with upgraded service for passengers paying the full unrestricted Y fare. They called it FFF (Full Fare Facilities). It was one of the first, if not the very first, product that offered something slightly better than Y class but less than F class.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13458 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 1):
I would like to pay more for more pitch and width, but I don't need service.

UA has seemingly gotten a pretty good response be enhancing pitch only. Of course, they don't do any of this 10-abreast on a 777 nonsense...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13405 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 1):
If they only enhance service but keep the same seats, then it is useless and nonsense. I would like to pay more for more pitch and width, but I don't need service.

I said above they are considering same Y seat but with enhanced pitch and more recline, plus other features such as amenity kit, enhance meal service, etc.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
bet this KL "Premium Economy" should look like the "twin sister" of AF's one, with the same concept : same in-flight food service than regular Y but improved comfort via a new seat, larger pitch and Business Class amenities (Blankets, pillow, kit)

I agree with you, in fact KL new business seats onboard the B77Ws are almost the same of AF NEV seats.

Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 3):
Perhaps it will be on the B744 first? As they are starting to retrofit the B744 (in June), they are getting PTV's!

It does make sense to start with the B747, but I would not be surprised the B772 also are reconfigured. In my opinion the B77W would come first in the list due to the huge Y cabin and the initial plan of the B77W was to have the premium economy cabin anyway.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
UA has seemingly gotten a pretty good response be enhancing pitch only. Of course, they don't do any of this 10-abreast on a 777 nonsense...

I am note sure but I think BA also has the same seats for its world traveller plus. The advantage of the same seat concept is that it does not cost much to develop and retrofi the aircraft, plus you remain competitive regarding the fares as a new seat would bring the fare closer to the classical business class fares.

OpenSkies currently operate AMS-JFK with two types of business class: flat bed and 140 degree recline seat business class. This is also another interesting concept.

Rgs,

[Edited 2009-04-27 10:33:46]

User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2208 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13347 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
I am note sure but I think BA also has the same seats for its world traveller plus. The advantage of the same seat concept is that it does not cost much to develop and retrofi the aircraft, plus you remain competitive regarding the fares as a new seat would bring the fare closer to the classical business class fares.

BA's WT+ has different seats than WT. It is the main selling point (other than extra luggage, miles and ability to upgrade to CW) because other than that the meals are the same.


User currently offlineUsdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 977 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13300 times:

The trend of premium economy should raise more than a few eyebrows. What seems to be going on is that fewer customers are willing to pay the higher fares for full business class service and view the J vs.Y fare differential as being too great to be worth it. As carriers have added lie-flat seats and expanded amenities in business class, it has become more of the "first class" of the 80's and 90's. Now that this is the case, the carriers are now having to dumb-down the product to get back to the standard business class of the past with reclining chairs and meal service that is somewhat better than "regular coach". The danger of such an offering is that the clients currently flying business may perceive premium economy to be acceptable to such a degree that they downgrade their choice from business. In turn, this has the risk of making the current business class the first class of today, which has become a repository for corporate customers and frequent flyers upgraded for free from business class.

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks ago) and read 13289 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 7):
I agree with you, in fact KL new business seats onboard the B77Ws are almost the same of AF NEV seats.

Not "almost" : they are the same than the last generation of seats used by AF. Just a different color.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13243 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
Not "almost" : they are the same than the last generation of seats used by AF. Just a different color.

I think they are slightly different:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/4042404

Quoting Usdcaguy (Reply 9):
The trend of premium economy should raise more than a few eyebrows. What seems to be going on is that fewer customers are willing to pay the higher fares for full business class service and view the J vs.Y fare differential as being too great to be worth it. As carriers have added lie-flat seats and expanded amenities in business class, it has become more of the "first class" of the 80's and 90's. Now that this is the case, the carriers are now having to dumb-down the product to get back to the standard business class of the past with reclining chairs and meal service that is somewhat better than "regular coach". The danger of such an offering is that the clients currently flying business may perceive premium economy to be acceptable to such a degree that they downgrade their choice from business. In turn, this has the risk of making the current business class the first class of today, which has become a repository for corporate customers and frequent flyers upgraded for free from business class.

I think this is a very good trend considering that there are many Y fares anyway. Someone paying full-fare Y fare would get the same as someone paying a deeply discounted Y fare. By introducing different products according to market demand airlines are increasingly satisfying consumer needs. Many airlines already operate with 4-class concetp such is the case of BA and UA. I also think that the introduction of +Y product helps in driving yields higher at a time there is increasing less demand for premium product (classic business and first class).

Rgs,


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12933 times:



Quoting Usdcaguy (Reply 9):
The danger of such an offering is that the clients currently flying business may perceive premium economy to be acceptable to such a degree that they downgrade their choice from business. In turn, this has the risk of making the current business class the first class of today

Well, you could look at it the other way. J customers can no longer afford (or are no longer willing to pay for) J class. However, instead of Y, they would be more than willing to pay for Y+, which may still result in a higher yield for the airlines than Y, although not as much as J. The introduction of Y+ on AF and KL seems to be more of a reaction to the drop in J sales than anything else.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineWilld From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12563 times:

Very interesting move. I am surprised it has taken airlines this long to follow the lead by British carriers. VS, after all, has been operating a PE product for well over 14 years.

Personally I think the VS product (ex LHR) is one of the best PE offerings and beats the WT+ from BA hands down. What I have found interesting, by reading other airline dedicated forums, is that it seems the PE product is perfectly priced in order to entice current Y passengers to spend a bit of extra money and upgrade. It is these customers, who the carriers are targeting with their PE service as they know that in all likelihood they will use PE as stepping stone to J. Without PE, those current Y passengers would never entertain flying J class. Of course as others have eluded to, PE also allows thoughs that are finding times tough to cut down on expenditure without having to fly Y as well.


User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10881 times:

Absolutely wonderful, and good for KLM. I'm still amazed that there are still some major full-service carriers (such as CX) that haven't yet implemented a true Y+.

A premium economy product is also something that the better budget carriers should consider (Virgin America's "First Class") perhaps most closely exemplifies such an application.

And I agree with the camp that says that Y+ needs to have its own cabin product, in terms of seat width, pitch, legroom - in addition to a differentiation in service and amenities.


User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10701 times:



Quoting Usdcaguy (Reply 9):
The trend of premium economy should raise more than a few eyebrows. What seems to be going on is that fewer customers are willing to pay the higher fares for full business class service and view the J vs.Y fare differential as being too great to be worth it. As carriers have added lie-flat seats and expanded amenities in business class, it has become more of the "first class" of the 80's and 90's. Now that this is the case, the carriers are now having to dumb-down the product to get back to the standard business class of the past with reclining chairs and meal service that is somewhat better than "regular coach". The danger of such an offering is that the clients currently flying business may perceive premium economy to be acceptable to such a degree that they downgrade their choice from business. In turn, this has the risk of making the current business class the first class of today, which has become a repository for corporate customers and frequent flyers upgraded for free from business class.

Just to add another perspective, Y+ or W classes fill a nice gap price wise between economy and business. Historically since about 2005, full fare international business fares have been increasing, with many of them reaching into the 5-figures - when full-fare J used to max out around US$7-8000. If full-fare Y is around US$1500-2500, you can see how there might be a market for a product around the US$2500-3500 price level (full-fare W). And actually it targets a segment of the market I've long wondered why businesses didn't cater more to, the better-off tourist/VFR traveler/small business owner.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1849 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10306 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 12):
The introduction of Y+ on AF and KL seems to be more of a reaction to the drop in J sales than anything else.

the announcement of the Y+ class on AF was done long before the start of the current economical crisis, so at a time when loads in J were still very good.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10238 times:



Quoting Goldorak (Reply 16):
the announcement of the Y+ class on AF was done long before the start of the current economical crisis, so at a time when loads in J were still very good.

Wasn't it first announced that they are thinking about (evaluating) it? That was a while ago indeed. But the final decision was only made very recently. No doubt influenced by the drop in J and F traffic.

Either way, I'm also a big supporter of Y+. I'm not really willing to pay that much more for J, but I gladly pay for Y+, so I'm glad that AF and KL are introducing this class of travel, even if it's (in KL's case) just a matter of increased seat pitch with better food and service.

I assume though that in case KL will only increase pitch, not width, it will be a "low cost" Y+? For example not 2x Y price, but 1,5 times?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9939 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 17):
I assume though that in case KL will only increase pitch, not width, it will be a "low cost" Y+? For example not 2x Y price, but 1,5 times?

I reckon of the options is that it will be "Seat Choice",so you would buy a regular ticket and pay for the upgrade upon (web)check-in, just like with the exit rows right now. Haven't heard any details on this economy plus thing though, let's wait and see until there are some details.
I think if KLM implements it, it will be on the entire fleet, doesn't make much sense to do certain types only; imagine flying DXB-AMS-NYC, you wouldn't want to offer Y+ only on 1 stretch, or only on certain days (as NYC sees a mix of EQM).


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9757 times:



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 18):
so you would buy a regular ticket and pay for the upgrade upon (web)check-in, just like with the exit rows right now

But the exit rows are only EUR 50 extra, I assume the Y+ will cost a lot more than that. But I understand that you are just pointing that out as an example.

I wonder if the Y+ will be a free upgrade (or with reduced rate) for FB elite members, like the exit rows are now.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 18):
the entire fleet, doesn't make much sense to do certain types only; imagine flying DXB-AMS-NYC, you wouldn't want to offer Y+ only on 1 stretch, or only on certain days (as NYC sees a mix of EQM).

Indeed. Of course there is currently a difference in Y offering between the 744 fleet and the rest of KL's long haul fleet (the PTV's), but that is very different than offering Y+ or not. How long will it take to retrofit one aircraft? I assume if all that is changing is the seat pitch, this can be done very quickly



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineGFFgold From Indonesia, joined Feb 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9668 times:



Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 14):
I'm still amazed that there are still some major full-service carriers (such as CX) that haven't yet implemented a true Y+.

Oh come now. Y on CX is probably more comfortable/better service than +Y on KL. The same could be said for Y in QR or SQ.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9456 times:



Quoting GFFgold (Reply 20):
Oh come now. Y on CX is probably more comfortable/better service than +Y on KL. The same could be said for Y in QR or SQ.

Have you read this thread?

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/4380045

Rgs,


User currently offlineManchesterMAN From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9409 times:

This fits in very well with the move to 3-4-3 on the 777 in Y. Now they can offer 3-3-3 in PE and advertise extra seat width as well as extra leg room!


Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8502 times:



Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 22):
This fits in very well with the move to 3-4-3 on the 777 in Y. Now they can offer 3-3-3 in PE and advertise extra seat width as well as extra leg room!

Or they could also offer 3-3-3 in Y in 2-4-2 in Y+ like BA does and still advertise extra seat width... Well, i guess we're in 2009, the illusion is over.
This said, I've always found immoral that the early booking customer paying peanuts is able to book the better seats, and the last-minute pax paying much higher fare takes what's left (the rear, the middle seats, etc...).
Offering Y+ at no cost for the full Y fare would be a smart move imo. Let's see how KL prices it.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8392 times:



Quoting Kappel (Reply 19):
But the exit rows are only EUR 50 extra, I assume the Y+ will cost a lot more than that. But I understand that you are just pointing that out as an example.

Correct. I am quite convinced KLM will not follow the AF strategy of a dedicated cabin. If you look at the proposed 77W config change of AF, with a lot of Y seats becoming Y+, I am lead to believe this will be a very bad move for KL.
I see much more prospect in having a set of better seats, assigned to the pax paying higher fares (like economy flexible), and if they are not filled, hand them out to the "other" pax for a fee during (web)check-in, just like they do now with the exit-row seats, albeit at a higher price than 50 EUR.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 19):
Indeed. Of course there is currently a difference in Y offering between the 744 fleet and the rest of KL's long haul fleet (the PTV's), but that is very different than offering Y+ or not.

I have to see it to believe this, but flying on KL on a recent trip I read in the inflight magazine "Holland Herald" that all 747's (both combi and fullpax) will see a cabin refit and the introduction of IFE with AVOD in Y as well...


25 LipeGIG : That's a very smart decision by KL. Not only to deal with less demand for Business Class, but to enable the airline to obtain better Y yields. I'm su
26 Hardiwv : The refit of the B747s to feature IFE with AVOD is decided. KLM already implemented this change in its strong MD-11 fleet and the world business clas
27 Seemyseems : I think they will put in the B section, next to the galley, that cabin already has a nice private feel to it.
28 LipeGIG : Hardi, the yield on Y depends on how full the planes are. TP and IB for sure during high season got very interesting yields. I believe AY (i'm not su
29 Kappel : This is a very good idea IMHO. Let's see what brilliant idea KL will implement though... Indeed, this has been decided a while ago already. Guess the
30 Hardiwv : You are correct. Indeed, Lipe. But I do not see how TAP would sell Y+ in markets such as NAT/FOR/SSA/REC and you cannot develop a new Y+ cabin and pr
31 LondonCity : UA doesn't have a proper Y + carrier like the others. As you say, most major airlines do not Y + But BD and SK offer Y + in Europe while QF and NZ of
32 Hardiwv : In Latin America only LAN has launched premium economy cabin (only for regional routes) which I must say causes a lot of confusion because LAN decide
33 LipeGIG : You can't say that SSA, FOR and REC, all of them markets with more than 2 million people and with business (even limited) and VFR markets, can't hand
34 Cubsrule : It may not be "proper," but it seems to work really well for them, so I don't think we can dismiss it as a potential business model.
35 LipeGIG : Correct, and they always can improve it one day !
36 Hardiwv : I am not saying these market cannot handle Y+, on the contrary. What I said is that the Y+ model is not suitable for TAP taking into consideration it
37 Kappel : Don't forget BR, one of the first to offer Y+!
38 Viscount724 : I wouldn't consider the UA Y+ as a separate class of service since passengers paying certain higher Y class fares are entitled to sit in those rows.
39 Cubsrule : The distinction that you're making doesn't make sense to me. UA puts people in Y+ three ways 1) Certain fare classes entitle a person to sit there (n
40 Hardiwv : And another crucial point, UA recognises its Y+ as a separade product for marketing sales which means this is a different class of travel of some sor
41 Seemyseems : Does anyone have an idea what the Eco+ seats will look like? Also, what will the new Eco class seats look like on the B744? Cheers, Sam.
42 LipeGIG : I agree with your view, my point is that with less seats on the market, some can be sold with a premium. And with a plane not so premium, the revenue
43 Hardiwv : Your point is totally correct, The only issue is that this "new product" (it could even be the same Y seat only with some extras such as pitch, etc)
44 NAVEGA : I was unaware that United had meals and amenity kits in their Economy Plus Seat ? I thought Economy Plus was only enhanced space between rows of seat
45 Viscount724 : That varies by carrier. On BA you can't choose a seat when you book except in first class, or if you're a gold/silver BA freiquent flyer, or if you'r
46 TGV : Don't forget BR, one of the first to offer Y+! And VN. While BR is a real Y+ Product (2-4-2 in the 777, normal eco being 3-3-3), VN Y+ is only with a
47 LarSPL : for the upcoming A330's KLM is looking into a config of: 30C 43Y 170M instead of 30C 221M
48 PHKLM : That might be correct. Other planes will see changes as well.[Edited 2009-04-29 02:58:17]
49 TGV : Interesting figures. As the J cabin does not change, this means that the reduction in the number of seats is only 8, and that the space used by Y+ an
50 Hardiwv : This is highly controversial and is one of the issues which a lot of pax complain in BA. The next aircraft likely to see changes is the B77W which ha
51 Sq_ek_freak : Seat pitch on KL/AF Premium Econ would be more than straight Y on CX/QR, so the point is pretty moot.
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