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Delta's LAX-SYD Now Loaded  
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16564 times:

here we go, may the strong survive

221 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 16344 times:
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Not sure what you mean by loaded, but it's been available for booking ever since the announcement of the new route a few months ago...inaugural flight on July 1 is already quite heavily booked:

J2 D2 S2 I0 Y9 B9 M9 H9 Q9 K1 L0 U0 T0


User currently onlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 16312 times:



Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):

I checked it on TravelNet a few weeks ago and was surprised to see how booked up it was. Out of all of those seats, how many do you think are press and/or DL management? I also saw the NRSA list and I think that there will be about 80 disappointed people on the day of departure.  Wink


User currently offlineLuckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16038 times:

Let the bloodbath begin. It will be interesting to see who blinks first. My question is, how long are the respective players willing to duke this one out?

United -- on this forum you don't hear many positive things about United. How are they going to respond to what was more than likely a comfortable route with not a ton of players to all of a sudden a capacity dump?

Qantas -- obviously they're not going anywhere. Are they going to be more threatned by Delta or Virgin Australia?

Delta -- can they funnel enough passengers through a limited Los Angeles network to make this flight turn a profit soon enough?

Virgin Australia -- how intertwined are they with Virgin Blue? How much can they offer their passengers in terms of a "global" network like the other three undeniably can.

The first three represent the three alliances (duh) and regardless of their worth, mileage and network draws the average customer (not those few members around here who get hung up on whether or not you get slippers in an amenity kit or pay an obscene amount of money to get an extra 3oz. of food). So, I guess after saying all that which network fits the passengers (market) the best?


User currently offlineAnstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16009 times:

Only 2 months until they start flying and still no advertising or brand awareness at this end!

I can only presume the are going for US POS pax rather than ex SYD.

I think QF/UA have the most to loose from DL/VA starting. My prediction will be that UA pull our of SYD-LAX in favour of a codeshare with VA.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7691 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15981 times:



Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
Not sure what you mean by loaded, but it's been available for booking ever since the announcement of the new route a few months ago...inaugural flight on July 1 is already quite heavily booked:

It really means nothing since its the inagural. There are going to be DL execs and press on that flight. Well see how it preforms for the first several months and then we will know how it will preform.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineASEFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15974 times:



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 3):
United -- on this forum you don't hear many positive things about United. How are they going to respond to what was more than likely a comfortable route with not a ton of players to all of a sudden a capacity dump?

Not to mention a sub-par economy product. I fly UAL more often than not, however they can't hold a candle to anyone else's international economy. (I have never flown US internationally). I was a little embarrassed for them and disappointed with my first 747 ride NRT-BKK and back, the plane was quite shabby.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15975 times:

Delta is definitely the weakest player among the bunch, in my opinion.

As others have said, I think it is clearly obvious that QANTAS is without question the strongest player and the last one that will ever leave the market. LAX is so critically important to QANTAS' entire global network that QANTAS won't be leaving this market - regardless of the competition - unless QANTAS ceases to exist as an airline, which I don't see happening anytime soon. Their presence in the LAX-Australia market is dominant, with by far the most flights and seats, and the strongest competitive position and distribution/feed - relatively speaking - at both ends of the route.

United I also don't see leaving anytime soon. They have served this market for years and years, and have a strong presence built up on the route that includes extensive feed through their LAX gateway. The only potential unknown variable there is whether, if things really got bad in the market and the new entrants really drove yields into the toilet, United might decide to give up on LAX-SYD and focus instead on SFO-SYD, where competition would be lighter and thus yields (presumably) higher.

V Australia is definitely a new entrant in the market, and has very little presence in the U.S. at all right now. However, it does have some potential assets that could help it in the market. First, its costs are likely the lowest of any of the airlines on the route. It's a new airline with junior employees. Second, it does have extensive distribution throughout Australia via the Virgin Blue network, and some distribution in the U.S. via Virgin America (and, I would note, the places Virgin America serves from LAX are some of the biggest and most important Australia-U.S. markets, like San Francisco, New York, DC, etc.).

Delta is the odd man out, as far as I can see. It has zero presence whatsoever in Australia - as far as I know, Delta has never served Australia and has never had virtually any marketing presence there whatsoever. It has very limited feed on the LAX side from its non-hub at LAX, and most of the markets they serve nonstop from LAX are not particularly big Australia markets (Minneapolis, Detroit, Atlanta, etc.). On the Australia side, they have no in-network codeshare feed at all.

I see this as purely Delta wanting to say they fly to Australia - in essence, an ego thing - and I highly doubt that Delta will be able to make money on these flights. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt Delta will ever be able to make money given all of the disadvantages they'll have and given that fares and yields are sure to drop with all the new capacity pouring into this market.

Good luck, Delta. You're going to need it, me thinks.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15950 times:
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Few international routes have 744, new A380, new 77W's and new 777LR's, the sight of things to come. 777's & A380 will become more common competitors.

User currently offlineRipcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1176 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15923 times:

I see Delta will give this route within 1 year. They have very little feed at LAX and None in SYD only thing that will keep them going past the 1 year mark if United gives it up..

User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 901 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15887 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):

I see this as purely Delta wanting to say they fly to Australia - in essence, an ego thing - and I highly doubt that Delta will be able to make money on these flights.

 checkmark  That's exactly what this is. It was a chance for DL to brag that they were the only US airline to fly to all 6 habitable continents...and sure enough it was in their initial press release.

They're going to regret entering a market based on nothing more than bragging rights.


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5214 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15872 times:



Quoting Anstar (Reply 4):
Only 2 months until they start flying and still no advertising or brand awareness at this end!

Why would they? I'm sure all business travel consultants have been briefed, and when you quote a customer a specific route you give him the cheapest nonstop, and the cheapest onestop option for that day. Most multinationals go by this now, and not if a certain employee has a ff card which allows him to take a way more expensive flight...


User currently offlineAzstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15873 times:

No one has been able to survive this market with more than two carriers. Remember, CO, NW, and AA all flew LAX/SYD at one time. QF will survive, possible UA since they are somewhat known in Australia by now. DL seems to be flying it for some executives ego's sake since they are absolutely unknown in Australia and have no Australian feed network. Ditto for Virgin Australia. Once they arrive in LAX they will have a hard time transferring to a US carrier.

User currently offlineLuckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15871 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
As others have said, I think it is clearly obvious that QANTAS is without question the strongest player and the last one that will ever leave the market. LAX is so critically important to QANTAS' entire global network that QANTAS won't be leaving this market - regardless of the competition - unless QANTAS ceases to exist as an airline, which I don't see happening anytime soon. Their presence in the LAX-Australia market is dominant, with by far the most flights and seats, and the strongest competitive position and distribution/feed - relatively speaking - at both ends of the route

Agree without a doubt. I don't think it's a stretch, however, to say that Qantas would be unable to support its current schedule without the AA tie-up which sees a significant number of passengers doing the double connect through Los Angeles AND Dallas.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Virgin America

Mostly useless though for Stateside feed as the vast majority of Americans do not live in Virgin America stations.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
most of the markets they serve nonstop from LAX are not particularly big Australia markets (Minneapolis, Detroit, Atlanta, etc.).

Are you looking at that from a Stateside or Aussieside perspective? Aussie side spot on. Stateside I'm disinclined to agree with you due to the fact that Americans are so much more spread out.


User currently offlineBNAtraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 412 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15853 times:
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Quoting Ripcordd (Reply 9):
very little feed at LAX

Yes, DL has very little on-line feed at LAX, but remember the AS arrangement of late? DL is the preferred international carrier in AS' displays and AS-DL will do extensive codesharing. I think that DL will heavily leverage AS' pretty extensive LAX feed along with DL's own minimal one. Wonder if they will use the MQ codeshares to feed also?


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15822 times:

Yes, perhaps DL has a weak network at LAX, but if I lived in LAX I would be sick of the fares QF charges and sick of UA's poor quality. I probably wouldn't fly V Australia because it sounds too weird. I would, however, give DL a try.

DL has a bunch of flights to Hawaii from LAX, with the same weak LAX network. They probably use those routes to attract frequent flyers who want to spend their miles somewhere. Maybe DL felt it had to get into the Australia market - or maybe SkyTeam pushed them - to fill a SkyTeam void. Even if they lose money it is important from a marketing perspective.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15784 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):
Well see how it preforms for the first several months and then we will know how it will preform.

International routes generally take at least 1 year to 'mature' from a load/yield/unit revenue, etc., perspective. How can you tell how the route will perform next February or March this coming September?

Quoting Ripcordd (Reply 9):
They have very little feed at LAX

As has been debated over and over again here, they have 270 seats to fill, by far the fewest of any carrier on the route. There are many, many cities on the East Coast which, while on their own provide very few PDEWs a day, but combined, can add up to quite a bit; all of these need a double-connect today on either UA or AA/QF to get to SYD anyway. Delta already interlines over 100 passengers a day today to QF at LAX; these pax can now be kept on DL metal all the way to SYD. Plus, it will be the only Skyteam option to get Down Under conveniently (i.e., without going up to ICN with KE to get back down to SYD), with an FF program membership of over 70 million. Add all those up and I'm not sure you can definitively say they will be the weakest player.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 10):
It was a chance for DL to brag that they were the only US airline to fly to all 6 habitable continents...and sure enough it was in their initial press release.

Nope. I think you have Hauenstein mistaken for an a.netter. It's about having a full global network for corporate contracts such that you're the preferred carrier to just about anywhere in the world; it's about not giving your preferred corporate customer any reason to go to someone else....Imagine that, there's actually a business strategy behind that!


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15761 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
As others have said, I think it is clearly obvious that QANTAS is without question the strongest player and the last one that will ever leave the market.

But if they loose the 200 pax per day that Delta interline on them and they loose the pax on the aussie end that are loyal to Virgin ten that is a big chunk of pax that they lose.

To be honest, I see the biggest loser as Air New Zealand. They used to pick upa lot of pax from BNE/SYD/MEL to the USA that ussed to go for the chepaest etc. Now VA (and QF) are offering cheap durect flights, why would you fly NZ now??

Quoting KL911 (Reply 11):
Why would they?

They still need to advertise... Also not all travel agents have been briefed. My mate at flight centre has heard nothing of Delta yet.

Re Delta & Virgin Blue, Virgin are providing Aus domestic feed for Delta and Delta are doing the reverse in the USA.... You can book SYD-LAX with VA and DL to JFK on the VA site now.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15707 times:



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 13):
Stateside I'm disinclined to agree with you due to the fact that Americans are so much more spread out.

Minneapolis and Detroit are fine cities, but hardly hotbeds of international O&D. To be fair, though, DL does fly to ATL and NYC from LAX, and those cities have more international traffic (both to and from Australia).

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 14):
Yes, DL has very little on-line feed at LAX, but remember the AS arrangement of late? DL is the preferred international carrier in AS' displays and AS-DL will do extensive codesharing.

Realistically, the only cities of any consequence that the AS codeshare adds are SEA and PDX. It's better than nothing, but it's not going to make or break the flight.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineASEFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15681 times:

Ok. Just for anecdotal sake, I looked at DL, UAL, and QF for a hypothetical vacation I am taking in August.

DEN-SYD
Dep 8/7
Ret 8/15

DL: $911
UAL: $1201
QF: $1151

Here are my thoughts.

Your average vacationer is going to type in their dates and destination to expedia or wherever and see these numbers and go with the lowest. They don't care about a double connect in SLC.

Also, there is not a HUGE feed. But, as many have said, there is a feed. You have
MSY, IAD, SLC, ATL, JFK, FLorida, CVG, Brazil, Guatemala, Mexico, Costa Rica + the AS feed, and the possibility of a negotiated AE feed.

O&D between IAD, JFK, LAX and to a lesser extent SLC and Latin America and SYD is quite a lot. Additionally, you average guy is not going to mind a double-connect through ATL from anywhere within an hour flight...it's not THAT inconvenient...also, UAL does not service many of the smaller markets and the SE that are currently served by skyteam.

What about connections from South and Central America? Is that legal?

I am pulling for Delta on this one, but there are some obviously very valid points made against them.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15654 times:
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Quoting ANstar (Reply 17):
You can book SYD-LAX with VA and DL to JFK on the VA site now.

Yes, it's interesting that the list of U.S. destinations that you can now book on the VA website besides LAX are JFK (DL), MSP (DLNW), SLC (DL), PDX (AS), and SEA (AS)....no ATL, DTW, LAS, MSY, etc., yet....

VA's press release about the DL interline also gave DL some free press about DL's own LAX-SYD service....


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15636 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):

While I have always respected your opinion (and still do) I must disagree with your analysis on this one.

While DL's presence in Aistralia is minimal, DL does have a few thing going for it that will mean that the DL will survive any fare wars.

DL will be the only Skyteam alliance member serving North America to Australia. Filling a single 772 will not prove to be that difficult, just from the LA area O&D, plus a few connections through DL's other hubs to LAX.

DL has the most cash of any of the airlines flying US $5 Billion. (UA $2.5B, QF $2.3B and VA $0.34B). If the single 772 flight is marginal, it will make very little difference on DL's financials as far as being a cash drain. DL won't be going anywhere for this reason. The bragging rights for marketing propaganda alone make this a no lose proposition for DL. Delta essentially has no substantial risk on this route. I did the calculations before and IIRC, the DL schedule will only be about 8% of the USA-SYD available seating. Hardly an ambitious marketshare goal.

VA has little cash, very little market cap. (US$200 million) and a large % of profitability exposure dependent on their USA routings. They also have no alliance support for other airline's FFers. They will be by far the most at risk in this competition.

QF is very dependent on the USA market and will fight to the death. QF may trim a few flights to maximize profitability ( or minimize losses), but will not cede any routes to anyone.

UA is the question mark. While I do not expect UA to abandon the Australian market, they do have significant hurdles to overcome in the near future. UA has inter-alliance competition from AC and NZ for traffic. While UA has $2.5 Billion in cash, their market cap is only $800 million, showing their highly leveraged position. UA also has much higher financial exposure to the USA-Australia market than DL, but still much less than either QF or VA.

In summary, for DL to capture a single digit market share of the USA-Australia market with the inherent advantages of being the largest airline in the world, being the only Skyteam alliance member serving the market, using a single smaller but very fuel efficient aircraft with competitive amenities, having a huge cash hoard, only caring about breaking close to even in the short term.......

VA and UA have much more at risk, DL can afford to dabble in this market.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15639 times:



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 13):
I don't think it's a stretch, however, to say that Qantas would be unable to support its current schedule without the AA tie-up which sees a significant number of passengers doing the double connect through Los Angeles AND Dallas.

Absolutely true.

The LAX nexus for QANTAS is made so largely because of the AA feed. The two have built quite a dual hub over LAX that today connects thousands of people each year between the U.S. and Australia, and generates hundreds of millions of dollars annually in revenue for both carriers.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 13):
Mostly useless though for Stateside feed as the vast majority of Americans do not live in Virgin America stations.

True, most Americans don't live in Virgin America stations, but I'm willing to bet that a substantial chunk of U.S.-Australia passengers live in Virgin America stations - particularly New York, DC, San Francisco and LA itself.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 13):
Are you looking at that from a Stateside or Aussieside perspective? Aussie side spot on. Stateside I'm disinclined to agree with you due to the fact that Americans are so much more spread out.

Again, yes, Americans are very spread out - this is a big country, after all - but they traffic demand to and from Australia is not quite as spread out. The vast majority of it is concentrated in probably fewer than 15 markets. (I don't have exact statistics, but it would be great if anyone had any.)

Now, true, there are plenty of smaller markets in the U.S. that could generate some traffic to Australia and could probably generate even a bit more if given a convenient, one-stop connection which today does not exist for most U.S. markets. That is why I have long contended that a nonstop flight from SYD to somewhere in the U.S. east of the Rockies would be successful with a 777LR - whether its QANTAS to DFW or Delta to ATL.

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 14):
Yes, DL has very little on-line feed at LAX, but remember the AS arrangement of late? DL is the preferred international carrier in AS' displays and AS-DL will do extensive codesharing. I think that DL will heavily leverage AS' pretty extensive LAX feed along with DL's own minimal one. Wonder if they will use the MQ codeshares to feed also?

It means absolutely nothing that Delta is the "preferred international carrier in AS' displays." AS also codeshares with QANTAS, and will sell somebody those seats if they want them as well. And how about in the displays of Orbitz, Kayak, Expedia, etc., to say nothing of travel agents, and anyone else booking through a GDS? Those people sure as h*ll aren't going to be giving Delta any "preference." Besides - I just tried booked SEA-SYD on AS' website and guess what came up ... nothing. It says that SYD is not even recognized on the site. So that's great "preferred" distribution for Delta.

As for Delta leveraging Alaska's "extensive LAX feed" - that basically amounts to Delta leveraging Seattle, Portland and Vancouver. Now, it is true that all three of those cities - especially the first two - definitely do generate some not-unsubstantial demand to Australia, but what great advantage will this give Delta since, again, QANTAS has online codesharing access to these very same passengers, and United does as well?

And as for the Eagle feed - I see no way that Delta can avoid selling those connections. If the MQ flights carry a Delta code, the connection will naturally show up in any system without active intervention by Delta, which I doubt they'll do. Why deprive themselves of the passengers?

Quoting AF022 (Reply 15):
Yes, perhaps DL has a weak network at LAX, but if I lived in LAX I would be sick of the fares QF charges and sick of UA's poor quality. I probably wouldn't fly V Australia because it sounds too weird. I would, however, give DL a try.

Well the fares QF charges are coming down - big time - along with the fares for every other airline on the route. You may think United's service sucks, but plenty of other people don't. And you make think V Australia sounds "weird," but most people don't make air travel choices that way.

So what that leaves us is four airlines all charging the same - much lower - fares, and you willing to give Delta a try, but not QANTAS with better service, United with bad service, and V Australia with a weird name.

I wouldn't say your experience - if representative (which I don't think it is at all) - leaves much hope for Delta.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 15):
Even if they lose money it is important from a marketing perspective.

That only works for so long - especially nowadays. Operating a flight just for the marketing contribution doesn't cut it forever.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 16):
There are many, many cities on the East Coast which, while on their own provide very few PDEWs a day, but combined, can add up to quite a bit; all of these need a double-connect today on either UA or AA/QF to get to SYD anyway.

Right, and Delta will now be offering just more capacity in those very same double-connect markets. Delta won't be contributing anything to the market but lower fares and yields, which is fine for consumers, but what does it do for Delta's bottom line?

Quoting Panamair (Reply 16):
It's about having a full global network for corporate contracts such that you're the preferred carrier to just about anywhere in the world; it's about not giving your preferred corporate customer any reason to go to someone else

Again - having bragging rights with corporate customers only goes so far. Airlines have somehow managed to survive for decades and garner plenty of corporate customers without flying everywhere. Somehow AA manages to garner massive amounts of corporate business without an extensive network (ex-codeshares) to Asia; so does USAirways. United does just fine with corporate customers without a big network in Europe (outside London and Frankfurt), and Delta does just fine without an extensive network to South America.

Delta certainly doesn't need Australia just to win corporate traffic, and the LAX-SYD flight definitely cannot be sustained on corporate traffic alone, either.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33045 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15615 times:



Quoting ASEFlyer (Reply 19):
What about connections from South and Central America? Is that legal?

Nobody in their right mind is going to fly South America-Australia via Los Angeles, when LAN flies SCL-AKL-SYD, Aerolineas Argentinas flies EZE-AKL-SYD and Qantas flies EZE-SYD.

As for connections to Central America/Mexico, Delta's network from LAX to the region is bare: seasonal service to Guadalajara and Liberia; Guatemala City and Saturday flights to some Mexican beach resorts.



a.
User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15585 times:



Quoting ASEFlyer (Reply 19):
Your average vacationer is going to type in their dates and destination to expedia or wherever and see these numbers and go with the lowest. They don't care about a double connect in SLC.

Not for Australia travel. The country is far away, expensive to get to and expensive once you're here. Vacationers are going to be working with travel agencies who will plan the entire trip for them. What's more, since its a long trip, most aren't going to be looking for bargain fares and will want to use miles or other rewards accrued to upgrade to a premium cabin or Y+, or straight up purchase a business or first class seat.

We're not talking about a weekend "impulse" hop to a Mexico- Australia-US travel is quite different in that it's planned weeks or months in advance.


25 Cubsrule : They're legal, but I don't know how many connections they'll sell. The connection from GRU is terrible (13 hours both ways), and the connections from
26 ANstar : But they have a profitable domestic airline that has the cash to prop up the losses on the US routes. 3 routes to the USA is alot less exposure than
27 Burnsie28 : I doubt that since VA already has a codeshare with DL/NW.
28 Panamair : Many large corporations have deals with most of the legacies; say a corporate traveler today who frequents both transatlantic and transpacific travel
29 ANstar : They have no such thing. DL/VA/DJ only INTERLINE. Where as DJ have a limited codeshare with UA on Australian domestic routes!
30 Rwy04LGA : 16+46 seats open and 62 NRSA listings. Looks like everyone will get on.
31 Post contains links DLPMMM : DL will have 1 772 on the USA-Australian route subject to this fare war which is a minute percentage of their international network. How much of VA's
32 Commavia : As I said in my first reply - I could certainly be wrong, and only time will tell. But I still do not see how Delta will be able to profitably (very
33 Jbernie : Out of curiosity how much does Skyteam membership matter? It only seems to be a benefit for the US side as I don't see skyteam membership being a big
34 ANstar : 4 aircraft, VS the 75 odd the have domestically to help keep VA flying! Anyways, I hope both VA & DL survive on the route... As I said, I think NZ ha
35 777ER : I predict that UA would then operate SYD-SFO and connect there as SFO is bigger for UA Very easily for many passengers because of their Star connecti
36 ASEFlyer : I am completely ignorant about the "numbers" here, but no one has really addressed cargo or is there a glut of capacity between the two continents?
37 Anstar : Agreed... Sure people will still fly them, but have a look on AFF and FT and a few other places and alrreadya lot of pax who used to fly NZ PE or Y b
38 MAH4546 : UA already operates SFO-SYD.
39 ATTart : Only time will tell if this comes true? As it stands all that is being said based on speculation, emotion and what we think are the facts. We will se
40 Post contains links ANstar : Too true! This industry certainly changes quickly! Here is VA's latest ad for anyone interested.... http://www.youtube.com/profile?v=nymPHeZLMdk&user
41 Ikramerica : That's a valid POV. I flew QF on an award ticket, but their prices are so high I probably wouldn't pay to fly them, and most of my friends who can't
42 FlyPNS1 : I certainly don't think anyone would call me a DL cheerleader, but I do believe DL will be able to fill the flight to SYD. As others have said, DL's n
43 ATTart : Thank you, I like it! I have always enjoyed the Virgin Crews. I remembered they saved me from having a boring layover in NRT. It was my first 7 day I
44 Viscount724 : However when travelling that far some people like to break the trip with an overnight stop. EZE and SCL aren't all of South America. From the norther
45 Jetlanta : I basically agree with you here. I think it is safe to say that NO carrier is going to be making money in the Australia-U.S. market for a while. The
46 Kleinsim : Pretty much the same holds for US. No AVOD on 762, food is mediocre. Only overhead movies are shown. Their interior and seats are new which helps but
47 Mysterzip : V Australia is very intertwined with Virgin Blue (after all, they own them), so you can actually book Australia-US. Their relatively extensive feed w
48 Post contains links Nickofatlanta : United code-shares with DJ! http://virginblue.com.au/AboutUs/Med.../NewsandPressReleases/P_003027.htm
49 Post contains links FL787 : Actually UA does codeshare with Virgin Blue in Australia. http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1520,00.html
50 Aerlingusa330 : Can't the 772LR do JFK or ATL to SYD? The 772LR already has ETOPS for the Mumbai route, right? So if they're looking to fly to Australia, why don't th
51 Mariner : This Aussie isn't missing it. Blind Freddie would have known it. What puzzles me is that I thought Delta was in the business of making money. mariner
52 ANstar : Given they really need to fly a daily service to compete with the other carriers I doubt they will drop any capacity seasonally on this route.
53 Alangirvan : In an interview with Cranky Flier, Brett Godfrey said this was to do with incompatibility of reservation systems - Virgin America chose one that does
54 LAXdude1023 : I very much agree with this statement. I think one carrier will fall out though. Im not going to say I know which carrier will back out, but I think
55 JQFlightie : To my knowledge, i believe a couple of years ago DJ signed a Interline Agreement with NW. Has this been transfered over to DL . But now VA have signed
56 DocLightning : Hopefully like they did in SF and downgrade to a 772. I think V Australia is the bigger threat. Better product, leaner and meaner company, targeted,
57 ANstar : They can - Virgin Blue and Virgin Atlantic have a partnership and V Australia will be aprtnering with Virgin America...
58 Sydscott : I can't believe I'm going to reply in this stupid thread. As of right now you can go SYD-LAX-SYD in Premium economy in July for AUD$2,900. As has been
59 UA772IAD : UA did not downgrade SFO-SYD to a 777-200ER. It was discussed, however SFO-SYD remains and will remain on a 747.
60 DocLightning : Au Contraire, a lot of MEL-JFK traffic connects at LAX. Decentralizing it to SFO might help things out for DL. They can also feed a few West Coast ci
61 Smi0006 : I believe it has, DL are just joining it I'm sure they do, they have a similar style to VS, VZ, DJ they are all quiet popular for their service, QF a
62 ANstar : LOL.. well said! I presume they have tried to reduce the amoutn of low yield pax on MEL-AKL-LAX and pick up more high yeild pax on AKL-LAX... (The AK
63 Mysterzip : You don't need a compatibility of reservation systems to interline or to feed. AA's cooperation with Qantas proves it (AA uses Sabre, QF uses Amadeus
64 Smi0006 : Forgive me but because two systems are different doesn't mean they are not compatible, as your above example demonstrates. However as Mr Godfrey's st
65 ANstar : Any news on who will be doing the ground handling of Delta at SYD? I presume it will be Menzies, Aero Care or Toll Dnata??
66 OOer : The inaugural LAX-SYD on DL is on July 1st. From July 3rd to July 13th no flight has over 10 in business or over 100 in coach. Good luck, I hope it st
67 Hardiwv : GRU-LAX and now SYD-LAX! And dont forget SA GRU-JNB-PER and SA/QF GRU-JNB-SYD Rgs,
68 Archer : I have flown Air New Zealand to SYD. Good Star Alliance member and I don't mind the connection at AUK. If I flew it often the non-stop might be better
69 AirNZ : To be perfectly honest, the above does not indicate the flight is heavily booked at all. It may be, but it's certainly not definitive from the above.
70 777STL : I don't *think* DL's 77LRs have the range to *effectively* operate JFK or ATL-SYD. DL did not take the optional additional fuel tanks thus their -LRs
71 Jetlanta : Its about a larger long-term strategy related to the merger and involving increasing its presence in the LAX market. This route is part of a bigger p
72 Burnsie28 : It could have been they wanted to wait for government approval as it just came... but it's odd since Delta loves to plaster their name everywhere now
73 Zkpilot : There has been a lot of talk in the past that DL is establishing itself on the route for now and that it will eventually move to a ATL-SYD direct rat
74 Aerlingusa330 : Gotcha, makes sense, thanks guys- -AerLingusA330
75 Cubsrule : I think we are basically in agreement: DL might get some Latin America connections. They will not be high-yield, but that might be all right at certa
76 SESGDL : JFK-EZE is seasonal and will be back this winter. What recent routes has DL not stuck it out on that were highly competitive? I still see them on JFK
77 Cubsrule : Source? It was announced that it was cut permanently... I can find one competitive route that DL flies on which it has the largest market share: ATL-
78 Hardiwv : And probably behind JAL now that DL flies JFK-GRU only 4 x week. JAL flies JFK-GRU 3 x week but with the B747 full pax in 3 class configuration. Rgs,
79 SESGDL : The route is seasonal, it's bookable for next winter. You originally asked how many markets that DL has stuck it out in that were competitive and aft
80 Jetlanta : Please. Your sense of history must go back less than five years. If anything, Delta has always been the anti-ego airline. I'll admit that a lot has c
81 LAXdude1023 : I think thats DL's strategy in a nutshell. DL does the best on routes that dont have much competition. One thing I give them credit for is that they
82 Zkpilot : ignore this... it will be the QF25/26 tag operated by 734 initially until the new 738's come along
83 Cubsrule : Correct, and when you're up against 7 daily 772s or whatever BA runs to NYC, you have flexibility to provide, as you say, service but not the most se
84 CHRISBA777ER : I've got two US East Coast - Australia sectors later on this year - booked QF to SYD ex LAX and VA to BNE ex LAX. All were between £497 - 545-ish. DL
85 Jetlanta : Its not. You have to understand that the overall strategy has to exist within the context of the world we live in. The idea behind what they want to
86 BMI727 : If that is the best reason they have to fly to SYD, this will go down in flames. This sort of thing didn't work out for United with their 50 States d
87 Jetlanta : OK, fine. I give up. A.net can go on believing that Delta is investing $300M in equipment for ego's sake. No matter how many times I try to help expl
88 EMB170 : This is the one thing that I think will keep DL in the market for some time. It's also important from a FF perspective...at current there really isn'
89 BMI727 : I'm not saying that is why they did it. But IF that is why they did, it is not going to work out. This wouldn't be the first time an airline did this
90 SESGDL : Noisy 777s? Since when has one of the most advanced and new airplanes flying today been noisy? I note the 777 in your name as well. Or is it that DL
91 Cubsrule : Doesn't shrinking elsewhere give them MORE resources with which they could grow LAX?
92 FlyPNS1 : Not when those freed up resources are going to the desert.
93 Aer : I did try to make a reservation GUA-SYD through LAX, but DL's page didn't return any options.
94 Cubsrule : Couldn't they go to LAX rather than to the desert?
95 Burnsie28 : Try 1989.
96 777STL : DL is nothing special in the nose bleed seats, that's for sure, even among US airlines. It goes far beyond the fact that both of these aircraft are b
97 MAH4546 : And, based on capacity, right now JAL is offering more on JFK-GRU than Delta.
98 Hardiwv : This is what I said in my reply 78: Of course, DL may become another option to reach SYD from GRU now that both destinations are connected to LAX wit
99 Post contains links WorldTraveler : Those of us who want to see this new route succeed are very grateful for keeping the thread alive - even if it is because some here want to try to con
100 LipeGIG : 43h of travel time with 15h of layover or enough time to travel 2x thru any other gateway plus the need of getting a transfer visa ? I don't think so
101 Hardiwv : I myself do hope DL will succeed and wish all the best for the new route. But we also have to be realistic and put all the problems into perspective.
102 LipeGIG : Considering that DL even wont list SYD-LAX / LAX-GRU, i don't think so. SA need to do it because it offer daylight service in one leg with early morn
103 AirNZ : The vast majority of Americans don't even have passports, so hardly a credible argument. It doesn't matter what they were from, they are still losses
104 ATTart : WT, We, will have to wait and see if DL does succeeds or not. If they don't I can't wait to hear your spin or your excuse for why they did not.
105 Mariner : Thanks for the lesson in sucking eggs but, again, this Aussie understands that. And again, I would have thought that Delta should be concentrating on
106 Cubsrule : Sure it is-- if the distribution of people with passports mirrors the distribution of the population in general.
107 Hardiwv : Not to mention that EZE is cheaper also Certainly in terms of fares it is impossible to beat AR both in Y and C. But you have to remember that AR and
108 FlyPNS1 : Yes, but then DL isn't really reducing system capacity, they're just reallocating it. Given current conditions, I think DL would rather eliminate the
109 OA412 : The only truth in this statement is "no free drinks" which DL may decide to offer for free as they do to JNB though that is not confirmed. OK, in pas
110 Commavia : That's funny, since Delta did just fine for years without having a big presence at LAX, as did every major U.S. carrier except United, AA and Southwe
111 Anstar : But why backtrack though SYD when both VA and QF offer direct BNE-LAX? No they don't. VA have fully flat beds, QF and VA both have a better premium e
112 Cubsrule : I agree. But apparently, they want to grow LAX. My point is simply that they have the capacity to do that, should they desire to use it.
113 LipeGIG : That's the point. So DL can't look to Brazil (or Chile/Argentina) to fill a SYD flight. They need to focus on the US only, and as per many comments a
114 WorldTraveler : I didn't write it.... just wanted to let you know that DL really does intend to be a global powerhouse.. it's not just something I made up. DL has de
115 Mariner : I'm sure they do, I don't think you made it up. But if I were a Delta shareholder, I'd be much more concerned with the airline making money. Surely,
116 Jetlanta : Well, none of that matters really, does it? You don't get paid to make the decisions. You are making the assumption that you are correct. Delta is ma
117 Cubsrule : Is the NYC presence "still growing" in competitive markets like FRA or GRU?
118 SurfandSnow : Am I being overly optimistic, or is it possible the LAX-SYD market will be able to support 4 very different airlines? Qantas is the Australian flag ca
119 Mariner : When did I ask to get paid? It's a discussion board, I do it for free. I don't assume for one moment that anything I say will affect Delta's decision
120 Aerokiwi : It's an interesting development. But considering UA and QF also competed with NZ's daily nonstop SYD-LAX service about ten years ago, another carrier
121 ANstar : Exactly and it is quite a big market - 280k pax per year on indirect services.
122 EMB170 : I can't speak for anyone but me, but sometimes I think you really *do* have to plant a flag in order to make a profit. Whether or not the route does
123 Mariner : I understand that some people hold that view. I don't share it. If Delta were making scads of money, or even just breaking even, then I might be more
124 Luckyone : Connecting in Los Angeles vs. connecting in Korea is much like flying from Miami through Chicago to get to San Juan. It's geographically inconvenient
125 Mariner : Um - that was my point. AA pax and FF's can connect in LAX - they don't have to go through any other country. I assume Delta could come up with a cod
126 Klkla : Actually, it's one free drink with dinner on all DL international flights. That's better than United offers. I don't think anyone realistically think
127 MAH4546 : Their new international product is top notch, by far the best of any U.S. carrier. I have no idea how many planes have the new product installed, but
128 Jetlanta : Cubs, you are smarter than that. You know full well that Delta has been growing its presence at NYC quite significantly. Cherry-picking markets as ex
129 PITrules : QF will be the last to leave this market, but in the meantime they might be the biggest loser. The LAX route is such a large percentage of their reven
130 LAXdude1023 : I agree with this assement with the exception of Virgin. Given that LAX-SYD is pretty much their existence, I dont think they will leave unless the a
131 Cubsrule : In the context of LAX-SYD, it really isn't cynical. The fact is that most of DL's growth at JFK has come in markets without any competition (VCE, KBP
132 LipeGIG : Their best chance is to serve secondary markets. If FRA and MUC are well served to NYC, other markets in German are not. That's why in my view, their
133 Aerokiwi : The Australia/NZ - North America market has been an almighty ripoff for a long, long time now. Fares more expensive than to Europe is just ridiculous
134 ANstar : Well I think QF has the most to lose. Aussies that are loyal to Virgin BLue will fly VA on this end and all the interlines DL used to give QF will no
135 DAL763ER : Why are US carriers more expensive than QF? LAX-SYD-LAX for July 1st, return on July 4th is $900 on QF(n/s) and $1250 on DL.(also n/s) I don't think D
136 Nickofatlanta : All to do with fare classes - the lowest fare class is not available on DL on the 1 Jul LAX-SYD. However, if you leave on 2 Jul and return on 4 July (
137 Gemuser : Not true! According to Geoff Dixon, former CEO, for all North Americian routes it is "less than 15%", so say around 12.5%. If it was less than that h
138 Zkpilot : NZ have had fully lie-flat beds (which are still better that VA's) for 4 years now (before VA was even invented!). Yes QF has a better hardproduct in
139 MSYtristar : Not good news for C or F pax if they downgrade to 777 considering no planes have been upgraded with the new seats yet. Some could say good news for Y
140 CHRISBA777ER : I just cannot fathom why people are so intent on arguing that DL is up there with QF and NZ. Its not - its not even close. QF and NZ are five star air
141 Cubsrule : Agreed, completely. That's why I don't think that LAX-SYD is going to do very well. If being a distant third or fourth is profitable for DL, then the
142 EMB170 : That's my point...AA folks (and oneworld folks in general) have a way to get to SYD nonstop. Yes, it's on QF, but they have a convenient travel optio
143 Phollingsworth : Not surprising at all. The two main sources of engine noise in the aft cabin are jet noise and shock-cell noise. Boeing has admitted that they haven'
144 LipeGIG : It seems to me that this route is all about the prestige to say that they fly to every continent, as the major airline in the world. There's better m
145 Panamair : You all seem to be fancy yourselves such excellent network planners...please let us know which market in Africa you think the 77L could be better uti
146 Cubsrule : I generally agree. Perhaps you could point us toward some "heavily-competitive routes" where DL is doing well. I look at heavily competitive routes (
147 MAH4546 : Which on AA's part is a balancing of capacity, as ORD-BRU is upgraded to a 3-class 772.
148 ATTart : An interesting article was written about Delta starting SYD in BusinessWeek. The article was dated 21 Apr 09 and written by Justin Bachman Traveler's
149 Panamair : As I mentioned in my previous post, look at FCO or BCN. DL is not the one downgrading on those routes. Even MAD is not as bad as you claim it to be c
150 Panamair : True...though ORD-BRU has already been upgraded to a 772 while JFK-BRU is still running as a 763 currently. Total capacity offered to/from BRU this s
151 WorldTraveler : To amplify what Panamair is saying, DOT data shows that DL has the highest average fares to Europe among US carriers, DL's ATL-NRT was the 2nd highest
152 Cubsrule : I think BCN is actually an interesting market to look at, because it is one of the few competitive markets where DL offers both a better hard product
153 ATTart : Also check out the other article written by same author Justin Bachman in BusinessWeek dated 16 Apr 09. (Travelers Check) Title " Why is Delta Going D
154 Post contains links Ikramerica : http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl.../2009/04/why_is_delta_go.html#more There's also an update in the normal blog page for him.
155 Post contains links Hikarufree : It is an interesting article. Honestly, I've pondered the logic, but it does boil down to SkyTeam. Here is a link: http://www.businessweek.com/lifesty
156 Cubsrule : What percentage of Delta's European network sees n/s competition as compared to its competitors? DL is certainly lower than the likes of UA or AA-- I
157 ATTart : I thank you both, for posting the links. I guess it is a wait and see on what the future holds for DL and the other 3 airlines on that route.
158 Viscount724 : Surprised you rank EK as a five-star airline. No airline with 10-abreast in Y class on 777s or 7-abreast (2-3-2) in business class on A330s is five s
159 WorldTraveler : The problem with using the title "underperforming" is that far too many measure DL's performance by the size of the a/c they use. No one seems to ask
160 SESGDL : Much of DL's JFK network faces competition: DUB, SNN, EDI, MAN, LHR, FRA, BRU, FCO, MXP, MAD, BCN, TXL, SVO, TLV, ATH, IST, OTP, CAI, AMM and soon to
161 Cubsrule : This entire paragraph pretty much sums up why I brought up JFK in the first place: when there's competition, DL would rather utilize hubs with almost
162 SESGDL : Is this not the case with ANY airline? Does AA not do better on DFW-NRT than on ORD-NRT? It's always easier when there's no competition, common sense
163 LipeGIG : I'm not a network planner, i'm a member of this forum only discussing alternatives in a very kindly and respectfull way and hope to get it from other
164 Jfk777 : Delta also has service to Tokyo afyter its merger with NW, LAX is not teh weak spot it used to be for Delta. LAX-Sydney will be great for DL, last ti
165 ANstar : If you like herringbone - whic I don't. I find ti to narrow and claustropobic..
166 Cubsrule : ...but you've misconstrued what I said. Nowhere have I said that DL should do better on a competitive route than on one with no competition. What I h
167 AirNZ : Since when could Central America be considered a continent? Yes, in general it's perfect common sense of course. However, the cheerleader hype on her
168 WorldTraveler : It is absolutely demonstratable that JFK is THE MOST competitive transatlantic gateway and DL has the largest presence there, including to the larges
169 Cws818 : Except AA, admittedly only during the summer months when BOS-CDG operates. During that period, they have multiple flights to multiple European cities
170 Cubsrule : Of course, that wasn't the question. A number of DL's JFK routes have no n/s competition. I never said that capacity shifting was a bad idea. Indeed,
171 LAXdude1023 : ATL-NBO. By a long shot. DFW-NRT out preforms every other NRT route for AA by a long shot. Im not critisizing DL by any means, I think its great they
172 WorldTraveler : And you have no evidence whatsoever that it will lose money for years to come. that is an assumption. I didn't develop the forecast for this market..
173 ANstar : I'm sure when DL were planning the route, they weren't expecting there to be a global recession or the prices to drop to what they have now... With D
174 777STL : Care to expound on *why* he is wrong? I'd like to see you actually prove him wrong rather than contradict him with no presentation of evidence to the
175 LipeGIG : You forgot to consider my "IF" On this i agree 100%, DL plans to serve unique markets is very good. As i pointed out, markets like VCE proved to be m
176 DeltaCTO : Why would AF be pushing DL to fly LAX./SYD when KE already flies to SYD as well as MEL BNE AKL? Great Circle Mapper shows CDG-LAX-SYD at 11434 nm VS
177 Cubsrule : We really can't get a good feel for how DL is performing relatively in a lot of these markets because, as you point out, we can't get good data for f
178 WorldTraveler : Their exec for network said as much. But he said they are moving forward anyway. Which was available and predicted for other US carriers as well. ...
179 Cubsrule : I think everyone agrees-- and both your numbers and mine seem to suggest-- that DL does quite well to seasonal destinations in southern Europe, inclu
180 OA412 : The 20% lower LF datapoint concerned a single month of operation (IIRC September 08). In truth DL has always had the lowest LF's in this market but i
181 Cubsrule : All I can offer is what I've offered above. When you have lower l/fs, a smaller (read: higher-cost) aircraft, and an inferior hard product on a given
182 ANstar : And hasn't bothered even building brand awareness 2 months out from launch!
183 Cws818 : AA's global presence is the same as it was before (given that all carriers have pulled back a bit in recent months); DL's merger with NW did not shri
184 WorldTraveler : But I just picked FCO as my example. There is hard data to say that DL does very well to most of Europe. There are a few clear weak cities but it isn
185 Cubsrule : Surely, there must be something to which we can compare it. The AA 777 is a bit of an anomaly when comparing to DL because it's quite a bit lower-den
186 Zkpilot : hmmm claustrophobic? being stuck having to climb over other passengers in a traditional seat I find more claustrophobic....individual aisle access is
187 LAXdude1023 : Oh good. Then DL wont have a trouble capturing ATL's less than 30 PDEW to SYD.
188 ANstar : But what do us mere Australians know about Delta? F$#% all!! They need ot have some brand awareness in this market which they don;t currently. Yes...
189 Zkpilot : Its not the same seat... in fact VS either was considering or did take legal action against them but withdrew it. However the relationship between VS
190 ANstar : Not boring at all... It is in between the doors where a galley would be.... so hardly a disruption.... Exactly... AC and DL have a better version of
191 Kiwiandrew : while I personally love the herringbone seats ( fully lie flat and direct aisle access for all pax - no climbing over other people ) I think that NZ
192 WorldTraveler : Labor costs are not just pilots and they are also not just block hour pay - it also involves work rules and productivity. And $15/hr is still a signf
193 DLPMMM : Delta doesn't care about brand awareness in Australia because Australians are not their target market. DL will get some small number of Australians t
194 Jetlanta : I'm tired of this whole thread, but will make the point that Delta WILL get most of those 30 and that number will likely rise 25%+ simply due to Delt
195 Kiwiandrew : there is an easy solution to that , just dont click on it anymore Personally I find this thread fascinating . I guess the big issue for me is that DL
196 Cubsrule : It will actually be really interesting to see what happens in NYC. Compared with UA's PS and the VS 744, DL has a really lousy hard product on the do
197 DLPMMM : Obviously almost nil in SYD, but LA has a very significant DL FF base (DL serves most of the LA area airports).
198 Cubsrule : That didn't seem to help with the last round of LAX expansion.
199 DLPMMM : Was it supposed to? I never said it was related to a few RJ routes into Mexico with less than daily service. I never gave any opinion that those flig
200 Cubsrule : It was more than just a "few daily flights to Mexico with less than daily service." They had service to, among others: BOI (daily) CMH (daily) DEN (4
201 Ikramerica : You don't seem to be aware of the ballooning Kiwi obesity levels, so much so that your government declared some kind of public health emergency last
202 BMI727 : How many do they have compared to other airlines? This may be far fetched, but if I were running DL, I would certainly beef up LAX both mainline and
203 Cubsrule : It absolutely has bearing. If they couldn't get this large base of FFs to fly the domestic routes with acceptable frequency and at acceptable yields,
204 MAH4546 : Delta will easily capture the percentage of that traffic that is Atlanta-originating. Though I'm willing to bet most of the traffic is Qantas-loyal,
205 Ikramerica : California has long been a place where people move to (bad grammar aside). Only this year has the percentage of people born in this state broken 50%
206 DLPMMM : All the airlines keep their FF membership numbers very close to the vest. In figuring on O&D, you could calculate based on marketshare, but when cons
207 Cubsrule : Let me lay it out more explicitly... When DL built up LAX last time, they presumably had this huge FF base in the L.A. basin. These people did not fl
208 MaverickM11 : FWIW DL just axed GRULAX except for peak JUL09 and DEC09. LAXSYD can't be doing much better.
209 DLPMMM : You still make no logical sense. Who said anything about "flock"ing?
210 Cubsrule : You're obscuring the point. We'll ask it this way: When DL built up LAX last time, they presumably had this huge FF base in the L.A. basin that you'r
211 DLPMMM : Your premise is illogical so your conclusion is erroneous. Passengers numbers for 2008 at LAX (from LAWA) American Airlines 8,809,408 United Air Line
212 Cubsrule : So why was filling 200 seats a day to Denver or 100 seats a day to Reno or 50 seats a day to Boise at market rates a problem? The fact that Delta has
213 Viscount724 : I am not familiar with the NZ seat but the VS seat is very different from the AC/DL seat.The VS seat is designed so seat cushions flip over so the si
214 OA412 : Where exactly is the logic in that? Since when is success/failure on one route automatically indicative of success/failure on another? LAX-GRU is rep
215 OA412 : But conversely it doesn't prove that it won't work correct? This whole DL@LAX argument has become remarkably tiring. It has gotten to the point where
216 MaverickM11 : LAXSYD is well served by multiple airlines via nonstops, and anything else DL can connect to it is served by even more one stops. DL is going to lose
217 OA412 : Of course. I don't think that DL is realistically entering this market believing that they will be making tons of money. I'm sure they realize that i
218 The Coachman : Because the pax who already fly SYD-ATL regularly and who originate on the Australian side probably have QF FF points that they want to keep... What
219 Lufthansa : As an Australian I can firmly say the answer is yes? Why? Close to 15 hrs on board is more important than what we have to deal with at LAX. Not to me
220 Lufthansa : For some reason the 'edit' function isn't working and I have just woke up (worked very late last night)...and not had any coffee yet so my last post i
221 HB-IWC : This thread has reached well over 200 replies. Please start a new thread on this topic if you wish to further explore the issue. Thread archived.
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