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US Carrier Performance To Moscow  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11346 times:

Now that we have 3 US carriers in the US-Russia market, it's time for an update using the most recent DOT data.

As of the 3rd quarter of 2008, the most recent quarter available for revenue data from the DOT, there were 2 carriers serving the US-Russia market with 3 routes - AA on ORD-DME and DL on JFK-SVO and ATL-SVO.

In order to protect the confidentiality of the data, the highest performing route was chosen as the baseline route and the other markets are cmopared to that route.

ATL-SVO was the highest performing US carrier route with yields up to 25% higher than other transatlantic markets, particularly relevant considering that ATL-SVO is one of the longest transatlantic routes.

JFK-SVO generated average fares that were 95% of ATL-SVO which on a yield basis makes the route a higher yielding route.

ORD-DME generated strong average fares for a relatively new route but they were 84% as high as DL on ATL-SVO.

LFs were the clear story, though. Oct 08 is the most recent month of DOT load factor data available.

AA is still struggling to fill its DME flight, even if adjusted for the much larger capacity of the 777 relative to DL's 767s. For Oct, JFK-SVO for DL was the highest LF market with ATL 8 points lower. However, ORD-DME was 30 LF points below ATL-SVO. Even JFK-SVO was below DL's transatlantic LF for the month. Even on an enplaned passenger basis, AA was carrying only 60% of the passengers that DL was carrying on ATL, its lower LF flight.

Consequently, AA's total onboard revenue was approx. 63% of DL's onboard revenue for either of its 2 SVO flights (which had very similar total onboard revenue numbers).

Russia undoubtedly continues to be a challenging market for new entrants and will be even more challenging for all involved as UA joins the market.

This market bears watching.

123 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22704 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11305 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
AA is still struggling to fill its DME flight, even if adjusted for the much larger capacity of the 777 relative to DL's 767s.

When did AA switch DME to a 763?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11280 times:

I believe it was a couple months ago after the nav mods on the 767s. Oct is the most recent month of DOT LF data. Even if normalized for an AA 767, AA's LF would have been well below what could possibly be considered viable.

User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11282 times:

How does one fetch the DOT data for a specific route?

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7492 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11273 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):


ATL-SVO was the highest performing US carrier route with yields up to 25% higher than other transatlantic markets, particularly relevant considering that ATL-SVO is one of the longest transatlantic routes.

JFK-SVO generated average fares that were 95% of ATL-SVO which on a yield basis makes the route a higher yielding route.

ORD-DME generated strong average fares for a relatively new route but they were 84% as high as DL on ATL-SVO.

Did you take into consideration that AA and DL structure their fares differently (DL includes their fuel cost in their base fare, while AA doesnt include their fuel cost in their base fare)? Last time we had this conversation you pointed to DL having higher average fares, but when the fuel and taxes were included, it turned out the fares were identical.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22704 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11245 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 2):
Even if normalized for an AA 767, AA's LF would have been well below what could possibly be considered viable.

The capacity of the 772 and the 763 really aren't that much different; the 763 holds 224 and the 772 holds what, 245? If so, the l/f on the 763 would only be on the order or 5-10% higher-- still well below DL's (20 points plus difference).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 11230 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
Did you take into consideration that AA and DL structure their fares differently (DL includes their fuel cost in their base fare, while AA doesnt include their fuel cost in their base fare)? Last time we had this conversation you pointed to DL having higher average fares, but when the fuel and taxes were included, it turned out the fares were identical.

Asking to rationalize facts to compare things on a more level playing field? That's asking a little too much there.



a.
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined Dec 2005, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10991 times:

Yields on MOW-US dropped significantly in the past months. All carriers serving US have been constantly running promos in economy / business since January.
US carriers initiated price wars by attacking each other with low fares. European carriers followed the suit.
This have led to round trip all-incusive fares of EUR 500 (MOW-NYC) or EUR 490 (MOW-CHI).
These are not exclusive offers - seats are aplenty. Regular high season is most probably not going to start this summer.
Eventually, such tactics may backfire on US start-ups. I doubt their ability to survive with economics getting worse without any sign of improvement.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10838 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
The capacity of the 772 and the 763 really aren't that much different;

Precisely. AA's 777s have some of the lowest seat counts while their 763ERs have some of the highest in int'l config. For months, we heard that putting the 767 on the route would turn it around. AA is not putting enough people on their ORD-DME flight to make it work on any aircraft. The only advantage the 767 offers is that it is a lower cost aircraft. The actual seat count is relatively insignificant in light of the very limited passenger counts.

Quoting MOW (Reply 7):

Yields on MOW-US dropped significantly in the past months

US-Russia is not a particularly large market and it can't be stimulated in the winter months with low fares. AA was able to push LFs during the summer with low fares - they can clearly be seen in the DOT data - but after summer, stimulation doesn't work and LFs plummetted.
DL's LFs took a hit but they still managed to get twice as many passengers per flight - and DL was using the lower cost 767.
The bottom line is that AA started their DME route and UA announced intentions to serve MOW well before the financial crisis which took oil prices down to very low levels relative to their high levels just months earlier which fueled so much Russian wealth.
AA, DL, and UA might be able to stimulate enough traffic during this summer to prefent a complete collapse of LFs but what happens after the summer remains to be seen.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10745 times:



Quoting MOW (Reply 7):

What do the numbers look like for the non-US carriers on the US routes like SQ at IAH-DME and Aeroflot?



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22704 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10667 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8):
The only advantage the 767 offers is that it is a lower cost aircraft. The actual seat count is relatively insignificant in light of the very limited passenger counts.

Presumably, the 772 also commands somewhat higher yields (if they can find F demand to DME).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7492 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10588 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8):

You didnt answer my question. If were not comparing apples to apples, this discussion is meaningless.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10468 times:

United is currently heavily discounting F on the IAD-DME route (per the promo emails I keep getting).

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10435 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4):
their fares differently (DL includes their fuel cost in their base fare, while AA doesnt include their fuel cost in their base fare)?

It doesn't matter. DOT data is based on flown fares - what is actually obtained. How the fare is constructued doesn't matter for flown data. It does make a difference when you are looking at a fare quote for future service.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):
What do the numbers look like for the non-US carriers on the US routes like SQ at IAH-DME and Aeroflot?

non-US carriers are not required to file the level of data that US carriers have to file- it is also why the data about US carriers is not readily available.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
Presumably, the 772 also commands somewhat higher yields (if they can find F demand to DME).

But that also would be reflected in the total onboard revenue. Even with the larger premium cabins, AA's average fares are lower than DL's.

see below....

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 13):

United is currently heavily discounting F on the IAD-DME route (per the promo emails I keep getting).

And the discounting will have to spread even deeper to the coach cabin in the near future as summer traffic bookings come to an end.


User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4969 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10400 times:

WorldTraveler,

Where do you access this DOT data?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22704 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10378 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 14):
But that also would be reflected in the total onboard revenue.

Yes, if the 772 was the right airplane for the route. But it wasn't. AA generally (and rightly, IMO) deploys 772s in two situations:

1) They need the range (ORD-DEL, DFW-NRT)
2) They are very strong in the market (JFK-LHR, MIA-EZE)

Neither of those things was true in DME.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7529 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10347 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
AA is still struggling to fill its DME flight, even if adjusted for the much larger capacity of the 777 relative to DL's 767s.

Just to add for those that don't know AA only served DME with 777's since the Russian ATC at DME system is different and requires some planes, such as the 767 to get modifications.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10273 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 17):
Just to add for those that don't know AA only served DME with 777's since the Russian ATC at DME system is different and requires some planes, such as the 767 to get modifications.

Wasn't there an APA issue as well? Maybe crew bunks? I can't remember.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5360 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10232 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
AA is still struggling to fill its DME flight, even if adjusted for the much larger capacity of the 777 relative to DL's 767s. For Oct, JFK-SVO for DL was the highest LF market with ATL 8 points lower. However, ORD-DME was 30 LF points below ATL-SVO. Even JFK-SVO was below DL's transatlantic LF for the month. Even on an enplaned passenger basis, AA was carrying only 60% of the passengers that DL was carrying on ATL, its lower LF flight.

A couple of your numbers don't seem to match what I got from the T-100 data.

Route / Seats / Pax / LoadFactor

ATL / 12965 / 8899 / 68.6%
JFK / 11026 / 8420 / 76.4%
ORD / 10785 / 5535 / 51.3%



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9620 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
The capacity of the 772 and the 763 really aren't that much different; the 763 holds 224 and the 772 holds what, 245? If so, the l/f on the 763 would only be on the order or 5-10% higher-- still well below DL's (20 points plus difference).



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Yes, if the 772 was the right airplane for the route. But it wasn't. AA generally (and rightly, IMO) deploys 772s in two situations:

1) They need the range (ORD-DEL, DFW-NRT)
2) They are very strong in the market (JFK-LHR, MIA-EZE)

Neither of those things was true in DME.

It seems that AA does not use the 777 vs the 763 to differentiate seat capacity but other factors I agree with #1, that range is a factor on many flights, but the second boils down to the question of how much demand is there for premium seating? For example, all of AA's LHR and Asia flights are on a 777 where there is a higher demand for F class, while all other European routes have the 763.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3003 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9602 times:

Delta Air Lines is the strongest player in the Russian market. I believe it will stay that way. They have had a presence in Russia for a VERY long time, and they are quite established in the niche. Locals and foreigners alike know that DL has always been an option, and between SU and DL, travelers have enough choices.

I'm really doubting UA and AA's survival on the route. For some reason, I don't think it will last as long as people think. If the loads and yields don't perform, say good-bye to both UA and AA in Moscow. DME isn't close enough to be running empty flights. Personally, I wanna see UA and AA fail, I know it's selfish for me to say so. But DL and SU do a great job on their own.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22704 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9525 times:



Quoting Cba (Reply 20):
For example, all of AA's LHR and Asia flights are on a 777 where there is a higher demand for F class, while all other European routes have the 763.

Actually, ORD-BRU and DFW-FRA both see 777s.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9513 times:



Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 21):
Personally, I wanna see UA and AA fail, I know it's selfish for me to say so. But DL and SU do a great job on their own.

If I were you and had those feelings, I might reword it to say that you hope DL is the winner in the end on the US-Moscow routes. I however don't want anyone to fail, I think that in the end, provided that we can at least have one or two options on US carriers to fly to Moscow is really what most of us want. Just don't want to see you get flamed too badly.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3003 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9488 times:



Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 23):
Just don't want to see you get flamed too badly.

Thanks, haha. I completely understand that my comment is ignorant. I myself don't understand where this feeling is coming from. It's just maybe its nostalgic. But DL has been the player. AA and UA seems to be entering the market to strictly compete with DL. Nothing more. Then CO is jumping the bandwagon. I think it just sucks for them. They won't be able to gain necessary market share, and will only end up hurting themselves, like they are doing now. We'll see. There is no traffic in this economy to support all those flights. DL added ATL-SVO to its existing JFK-SVO for a reason, Moscow was performing VERY well. It was a great addition, and adds great connecting opportunities.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9363 times:



Quoting Cba (Reply 20):
For example, all of AA's LHR and Asia flights are on a 777 where there is a higher demand for F class, while all other European routes have the 763.

BOS-LHR is 763, as is one DFW-LHR; MIA-MAD, ORD-BRU and DFW-FRA are 772s.



a.
25 Cba : DL will always be at an advantage due to its partnership with, and thus connection opportunities through, Aeroflot at SVO. It is no surprise that ATL
26 Cubsrule : It's worth noting, too, that UA (LH, OS, LO) and, to a lesser extent, AA (AY) are likely to connect passengers to these "beyond SVO" destinations at
27 FlyingSicilian : Since I am too lazy to find it myself anyone have a list of all USA-Russia service pairs? Or are they all already noted above, Just curious
28 Post contains links St530 : You can pretty much figure it out by looking at the monthly traffic stats at the Houston Airports system web site: http://www.fly2houston.com/newsTra
29 Transpac787 : 02 November 2008 Russia's ATC system is really weird and highly illogical in the way it works. Per Russian operations, when an aircraft lands at an a
30 UN_B732 : I think we don't have to worry about CO's potential entry for a few years to come.. If any carrier will come, it's probably US; and even that is prett
31 Cba : A good point as well. Also, Star and Oneworld customers desiring to travel to Moscow also have one-stop options available through FRA on LH or throug
32 United1 : Not so much in UAs case at least vs LH... DME-IAD is part of the UA/LH joint venture. Whether you fly UA or LH across the pond your fare all goes int
33 OA412 : DL JFK-SVO ATL-SVO UA IAD-DME AA ORD-DME SU JFK-SVO IAD-SVO LAX-SVO ORD-SVO I know there are others (e.g. Transaero) but these were the only ones I c
34 LAXdude1023 : SU doesnt fly ORD-SVO. AA flies ORD-DME.
35 MAH4546 : Aeroflot does not fly to O'Hare and Dulles is served once a week via JFK. While Transaero announced plans to fly to LA, Miami and New York last year,
36 OA412 : Oh OK I was under the impression that they did fly to ORD. Also, I was aware that IAD is just once weekly but thought it was nonstop. Has it always r
37 LAXdude1023 : It is nonstop.
38 AznMadSci : SQ IAH-DME
39 United1 : Yup....SU318 from IAD is non-stop every Sat on a 767 JFK SU316 non-stop daily on a 767 LAX SU322 non-stop Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat on a 767
40 TWA902fly : UA IAD-DME 767-300ER AA ORD-DME 767-300ER DL ATL-SVO 767-300ER DL JFK-SVO 767-400ER SQ IAH-DME 777-300ER SU LAX-SVO 767-300ER SU IAD-SVO 767-300ER SU
41 ElmoTheHobo : But I can tell you which one will survive, and it's Delta. It's really between United and American. The issue was American's 767s could only read in
42 FlyingSicilian : Thank you very much, that was the kind of list I was looking for! Cheers
43 Transpac787 : As well as I previously mentioned, Russia uses the exceedingly bizarre QFE system meaning that when you land your altimeter is to read 0 regardless o
44 Searpqx : As stated above, Q4 LF isn't yet available, however DOT O&D Market data is, and it actually paints a slightly different story: Org | Dst | Miles | Al
45 MAH4546 : Which I assume is a recent change in response to United. It had been via JFK for ages, including recently.
46 AznMadSci : What were the schedules for these former routes? I remember seeing the ticket counter at SEA when I was younger, but never saw the plane. Also surpri
47 UN_B732 : I don't know the schedules - but I do remember that SEA was a stop on the SFO route. It was a 777 at one point flying SFO-SEA-SVO. I also remember IAD
48 Post contains links WorldTraveler : One of the largest providers of aviation data is providing free 2 week trials for those who are interested in seeing this type of data. http://www.apg
49 LAXintl : I would not call it stupid at all. Actualy it has quite some logic. When you touch down, you are at 0 feet, unlike landing at an airport and your alt
50 WorldTraveler : I have posted no actual data using relationships between routes... others have posted actual data. Even T100 int'l data is not to be posted publicly.
51 UN_B732 : Why would the DOT (and especially the airlines) care, when I can get T-100 data (albeit slightly outdated, all I could find is 10/08) from the BTS web
52 FlyingSicilian : Well the SQ data is fairly easy to find via the IAH website. It will be interesting to see how those numbers change with the switch to *A. It is a lit
53 LAXintl : They don't. All the stuff on BTS and OSTPX is public anyhow. There is some additional reporting primarily with revenue and fare data that is not made
54 Sancho99504 : I remember out of SEA, the DL JFK flight that leaves at 0800, which was flt2029 when I worked there was packed 97% of th time and 75% of the passenger
55 Transpac787 : Save for how there is no mean line for measuring altitude... How does one measure cruise altitude?? 29.92?? Okay, that's fine. Then how do we measure
56 LAXintl : Quite simple. Just like using QNH there is a transitional altitude (usualy 3000-6000ft above field) Also its not just Russia. China also uses QFE whi
57 PHBUF : 245? I don't know about US carriers, but KL's 772 holds 327..
58 USAirALB : I'm waiting for US to fly to DME/SVO.
59 Lfutia : Does anyone think AA would do better if they operated to SVO instead of DME? Maybe if AA partnered with a Russian carrier or something along the lines
60 Aeroflot777 : I don't think it will happen in the near future. Without a Russian carrier in their alliance, it makes no difference. If they were paired with a Russ
61 Elmothehobo : That has to do with how each airline wishes to configure their aircraft. KL's 777s are light on on the premium side (35C), while American's 777s have
62 USAirALB : I've heard it for 2010 along with PHL-VIE and CLT-FCO. I can see it as a stong route for US.
63 UN_B732 : Are there enough frequencies for everyone (if US decides to come in?) Does CO still hold their frequencies? -A
64 Aeroflot777 : I highly doubt it. There is only so much traffic between the United States and Russia. US would have to find a Russian partner to connect passengers
65 LAXdude1023 : I wouldnt give US much of a shot on MOW. The market is already super saturated. Im flying LAX-ORD-DME next month and its only costing $850 in June. T
66 WorldTraveler : I don't believe that there are sufficient authorities left to add a 4th operating carrier - nor would it be wise to do so. Russia is not a leisure ma
67 Transpac787 : 9J and 15F With crew rest seats blocked, AA 763's on international are sold to 28J/191Y With crew rest seats blocked, AA 777's on international fligh
68 MasseyBrown : This may be time to ask again ... About a year ago both CO and US received codeshare authority for Russian flights with Swiss Int'l over Zurich, but n
69 FutureUScapt : That seems to be the case. A question was asked about this in the weekly US employee newsletter a few weeks ago and they stated that although the DOT
70 LAXdude1023 : To take a look at where the ethnic market is from the USA to Russia, we can look at the number of foreign born Russians per metro area (numbers are r
71 WorldTraveler : US airlines (as well as other companies) are reluctant to develop deep relationships with Russian companies when the political situation could sink t
72 Ocracoke : Curious. I wonder how DL was able to fly into SVO on the first day of the PanAM takeover, Nov 1, 1991, with that same 767, and had no problems. Not o
73 Aeroflot777 : That's because the information stated previously is incorrect. All Russia requires is a read out in METERS. AA's planes were capable of feet only. Th
74 Sancho99504 : SU used to operate KHV-ANC-SEA-SFO-SEA-ANC-KHV, VVO-ANC-SEA-SFO-SEA-ANC-VVO, VVO-ANC-SEA-LAX-SEA-ANC-VVO, and KHV-ANC-SEA-LAX-SEA-ANC-KHV both served
75 Texan : AS used to fly to Magadan and Khaborovsk (1991-1998); Vladivostok (1993-1998); Petropavlosk (1995-1998); and Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (1997-1998) from ANC (
76 Cws818 : Do you think that DL will ramp-up the relationship with SU once SVO-3 opens? I know that the current facilities are less than ideal, but the new term
77 WorldTraveler : The new terminal will certainly help. SU is upgrading their product and really wants to be viewed as a world class airline. Skyteam needs more presenc
78 Cubsrule : If OK figures things out and can be a valuable partner in eastern Europe, do you think DL needs close relationships with both SU and OK to cover the
79 WorldTraveler : yes because OK is perceived quite a bit differently. Also, geographically, OK can reinforce Skyteam's presence to the Middle East and Central Asia; S
80 Aeroflot777 : That has mostly changed/been changing. A lot of surveys have indicated frequent travelers both local and foreign prefer SU over other European carrie
81 Kevin : Some of you guys forget that flights to Russia are targeted not only at Russians who live at US but at a whole ex-USSR communities including Armenians
82 WorldTraveler : It looks like Russia only requires a visa for transit if you leave or change airports. It's not quite as liberal as in western European countries but
83 Cubsrule : IIRC, that's correct. As far as transfers to/from the US are concerned, that should be enough, as both of DL's flights are conveniently timed for qui
84 LAXdude1023 : Getting a Russian Visa totally sucks. I have to head to Moscow next month. What I have to do to get a visa is long and complicated. I think its uninv
85 MOW : Same is very true for us, Russians, wishing to visit US. It's reciprocal...
86 Aeroflot777 : Tell that to the Americans who make the Visa process for Russian citizens LIVING HELL. Much worse than for Americans traveling to Russia.
87 Cubsrule : I'm not sure reciprocity is really a good policy, though. Is leaving money on the table worth it? There are ways of expressing displeasure with the p
88 LAXdude1023 : Its pretty much 50-50. I never said it wasnt as bad for Russians coming to the US. Its bad for both of us. I understand if a country wants to have a
89 Aeroflot777 : Exactly the same can be said to the opposite. "There are other ways of expressing displeasure with the policy short of making life tough for everyday
90 Cubsrule : I don't believe that the U.S. visa policy is a response to any particular policy of the Russian government. There are many countries with which the U
91 Aeroflot777 : " There are ways of expressing displeasure with the policy short of making life tough for everyday Americans" - So what is that supposed to mean? Why
92 Cba : I am sure SU benefits from connecting traffic from Europe and North America to Central Asia through SVO, however LH also has a lot of flights from LH
93 Cubsrule : ...because, unlike the Russian visa policy (which you have conceded is retaliatory), the US visa policy isn't expressing displeasure for any Russian
94 Aeroflot777 : It doesn't make sense. So you're saying... let's keep the horrific visa application policy for Russians to visit the U.S., but make life easy for Ame
95 Cubsrule : That's not really what I'm saying, per se. You have to look at the policy reasons for each county's action. For the United States, the concern is ove
96 Dallasnewark : Your argument would make sense only if the visitors from both countries would not overstay the alloted time specified on their visas. However there a
97 Aeroflot777 : What would be a sensible way to do that? Please state a solution that would benefit US as well as Russian citizens. Again, as I've said before, on a
98 Cubsrule : What is Russia's overstay rate these days? Well, what the Chileans do seems to be a sensible compromise. They collect a "reciprocity fee" upon landin
99 Aeroflot777 : Not sure on the exact numbers. The info is probably available somewhere on the net. Countries like Turkey do that too. But notice a lot of those plac
100 Cubsrule : Australia accomplishes that without an onerous visa process, and the US is moving toward something similar for VWP countries. The internet makes it f
101 Aeroflot777 : The only problem with that is that it's for selective countries. So Russia doesn't apply. There is a lot of fishy stuff that goes on across the borde
102 Severnaya : See above post. For Russians it's also much more difficult to obtain an US visa than a Schengen Visa (especially one issued by Finland is easy to obt
103 Dallasnewark : Let's be realistic here, there are a lot more Russians trying to get into US than vice versa. As far as the illegal stay numbers, the ratio of Russai
104 Cubsrule : Well, in a lot of cases it's easy, but the Russian authorities choose to make it very hard for some applicants. For instance, I had a friend who was
105 FlyingSicilian : From my colleagues' experience this is correct. When flying Singapore Airlines Houston to Singapore via Moscow you don't need a visa, you stay in the
106 AirNZ : It's a lot more 'liberal' than the US is though!
107 Aeroflot777 : Exactly, we don't need tourism, so the government couldn't care less. And the Russians on this forum also know how are country is run. It's all good
108 Cubsrule : But I still don't understand why that's good policy. I don't make the rules in the United States (heck, I didn't vote for the people who made those r
109 Aeroflot777 : The point is... all I'm telling you is that we are not the policy makers. So why can't you put yourself in my place and pretend right now that you ar
110 Cubsrule : No, I wouldn't say that. You are still missing a key difference: the US policy is based on the actions of Russian citizens (i.e. overstaying), and it
111 Sofianec : The above statement is pretty much restating the position of the State Department = means "WE DON'T WANT YOU" here. Naturally if there is a VISA impo
112 Aeroflot777 : Are you sure about that? Read above post! And just because some of the people overstay, doesn't mean most do. So it's unfair to all of us. Aeroflot77
113 Sankaps : Where do people connect to beyond Moscow? I was under the impression MOW itself would be the primary destination, perhaps followed by St. Petersburg.
114 Cubsrule : That's true and it isn't. The State Department collects (and publishes?) data on both overstays and denials. Initial membership in VWP is based on de
115 Sofianec : That's true but in the case of Russian citizens the first rule applies and have always applied. Remember: we're talking about the policy toward Russi
116 Cubsrule : Per the US Ambassador to Poland (and as of a couple of years ago), overstays, not denials, were what was keeping Poland out of VWP. You said that Can
117 Aeroflot777 : I'm not too sure that you understand that Russia is not necessary looking to be a part of the VWP. It's not on the agenda. Look above, we don't need
118 Cubsrule : Agreed (though it doesn't change the fact that Russia could not join VWP even if it were more interested). Not really. J1 holders are going to positi
119 Aeroflot777 : I agree with you that it's not sensible. However I think that it's not sensible from both the Russian and the American side, not just the Russian. Ae
120 Cubsrule : ...and I agree there, too (although I think the sensible parts of the US policy are different parts from the sensible parts of the Russian policy, an
121 Aeroflot777 : From a Russian domestic policy point of view, I believe that all the requirements needed for Americans to enter Russia also highly make sense.
122 Cubsrule : ...and we're right back to the original question: why? What purposes besides reciprocity does the Russian policy serve?
123 Pylon101 : Quite an interesting discussion - and suprisingly within limits of correctness. Including political correctness. Talking about US-Russia relations in
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