LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11201 posts, RR: 61 Posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2929 times:
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Air China (CA) announced in Brazil that they decided to cancel their plans to resume Madrid-São Paulo route (up to now expected to June after the first postpone a few weeks ago) this year.
They said that because of the current economic situation, there's no expectation of a good result.
CA will reimburse all passengers with tickets purchased for São Paulo-Madrid, and will accomodate passengers with Sao Paulo-Pequim tickets.
The route was expected to be 2x weekly with A330-200. The airline will continue with PEK-MAD flights.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11201 posts, RR: 61 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2590 times:
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Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 1): it will be much better to have a codeshare from MAD to GRU
TAM is adjusting a code-share with CA, probably in the near future they will announce a partnership thru one of their European gateways. I believe they will try CDG.
Quoting Emptyarm (Reply 2): TAM is very close to *A, but the times GRU bound are terrible
That's why CDG come as a better choice. CA933 arives CDG at 18:40 and TAM from CDG offers services also to GIG (daily), REC (weekly) and SSA (weekly).
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15734 posts, RR: 48 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2526 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter): Air China (CA) announced in Brazil that they decided to cancel their plans to resume Madrid-São Paulo route (up to now expected to June after the first postpone a few weeks ago) this year.
The market just isn't that big. You're essentially operating the "Kangaroo Route" except the two countries are much less developed and the market is much thinner. There's definitely long term potential though.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11201 posts, RR: 61 Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2476 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4): The market just isn't that big. You're essentially operating the "Kangaroo Route" except the two countries are much less developed and the market is much thinner. There's definitely long term potential though
Kangaroo ? Any route Europe-China is also considered "Kangaroo" ?? I always imagine it's all about routes to Australia.
The fact is, MAD as a market from Brazil face customer restrictions since Spain begin to be a little more harder with Brazilian visitors. They avoid for sure people that focus to stay illegaly, but they hit the regular traffic also.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15734 posts, RR: 48 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5): Kangaroo ? Any route Europe-China is also considered "Kangaroo" ?? I always imagine it's all about routes to Australia.
I'm saying it's *like* the Kangaroo route.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5): The fact is, MAD as a market from Brazil face customer restrictions since Spain begin to be a little more harder with Brazilian visitors
That doesn't help either, nor does the fact that it's a Chinese carrier, which in terms of brand awareness and recognition are probably even lower than US carriers in every respect. I think IB could do very well on a route such as this, since the majority of the traffic goes over US/Euro carriers (AF specifically) anyway between Brazil and China.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6): That doesn't help either, nor does the fact that it's a Chinese carrier, which in terms of brand awareness and recognition are probably even lower than US carriers in every respect. I think IB could do very well on a route such as this, since the majority of the traffic goes over US/Euro carriers (AF specifically) anyway between Brazil and China
Good points, plus the fact of daylight flight from Madrid to São Paulo. CA should research for an unique route, like Barcelona-São Paulo.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
MIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1279 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2402 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6): I think IB could do very well on a route such as this, since the majority of the traffic goes over US/Euro carriers (AF specifically) anyway between Brazil and China.
IB could do very well in LatinAmerica-Asia flights, but they never wanted to do anything to Asia, But I´m sure they could have some flights easily. AF has a real goldmine with this type of flights.
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2300 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4): The market just isn't that big. You're essentially operating the "Kangaroo Route" except the two countries are much less developed and the market is much thinner.
That isn't actually true. According to the CIA factbook, Brazil's GDP in 2008 was $1.99 trillion at PPP and Australia's GDP was $800 billion ($.80 trillion) less than half as much. China's GDP was $7.8 trillion whereas the UK's GDP was $2.231 trillion.
So, you are talking about a Kangaroo route from a country (China) with an economy 3.5 times as big as the UK to another country (Brazil) with an economy 2 times as big as Australia. And that is not taking into account the possible connections from GRU to the rest of the continent of South America. The only connections out of Australia are to New Zealand.
Robbie86 From Sweden, joined May 2006, 509 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2277 times:
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 9): So, you are talking about a Kangaroo route from a country (China) with an economy 3.5 times as big as the UK to another country (Brazil) with an economy 2 times as big as Australia. And that is not taking into account the possible connections from GRU to the rest of the continent of South America. The only connections out of Australia are to New Zealand.
But still the average citizen in Australia and the UK earns more more money than the inhabitants of China or Brazil... So MaverickM11 is correct when he says that the market is to thin.
The inhabitants of China has just recently starting to make money and can afford going abroad on holidays. I'm not to sure about Brazil being a top priority destination. Would make more sense to see them go to Europe or North-America.
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Mpdpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 935 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2260 times:
Quoting Eghansen (Reply 9): So, you are talking about a Kangaroo route from a country (China) with an economy 3.5 times as big as the UK to another country (Brazil) with an economy 2 times as big as Australia. And that is not taking into account the possible connections from GRU to the rest of the continent of South America. The only connections out of Australia are to New Zealand.
Another thing to take into account isn't just the economies of each country but the amount of traveling that the citizens take part in. Robbie86 mentions this but I just wanted to add that I have read that the average Australian travels more than the average American and I know the US has a bigger economy. I would imagine the big reason this route would have had trouble would have been a combination of the numerous other options and the lack of connections between the two countries. Not to say that there are none but there sure isn't as much as between Australia and UK.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
Rafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
You are missing the point here guys.
It is not only about economy size and wealth. For a route (especially such a looong Kangaroo one like this) to work there has to be strong economic and cultural ties BETWEEN the two countries.
Aussies love to go to the UK and vice-versa and both countries share a joint history and have a very strong economic relationship. That is why AUS-ASIA-UK routes work and why AUS-ASIA-FRANCE don't work so much.
The same goes, for example, for JL's GRU-JFK-NRT. Brazil and Japan have historically strong economic ties and there is also a respectable VFR and immigrant population to fill the back of the plane.
Eghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2168 times:
Quoting Robbie86 (Reply 10): But still the average citizen in Australia and the UK earns more more money than the inhabitants of China or Brazil... So MaverickM11 is correct when he says that the market is to thin.
I'm not sure how thin the route actually is or how thick the kangaroo route is.
Although there are quite a few flights from LHR to Australia, they all stop somewhere (HKG, BKK, SIN, KUL, DBX, DOH) and I don't have stats on how many of the passengers travel all the way through.
If 100% of the populations of Australia and Britain can afford to or need to travel between their respective countries, that gives you 82 million people. If 6% of the populations of China and Brazil can afford to or need to travel between the respective countries, that gives you 91 million people.
It has been reported in this forum that Emirates is planning to increase DXB to GRU to two flights daily, Qatar is planning to begin service DOH to GRU and that these flights are popular with pax traveling from Brazil to Asia. Air China may be entering the market just in the nick of time.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11201 posts, RR: 61 Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2164 times:
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Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 12): It is not only about economy size and wealth. For a route (especially such a looong Kangaroo one like this) to work there has to be strong economic and cultural ties BETWEEN the two countries
Good point. There's no way to compare UK-Australia with a market like China-Brazil. The fact is that, there's not such huge market despite the massive size of the two countries. Looking also to business, China imports are raw materials and food (mostly), for sure not the kind of trade that generates a huge business ties.
No need to say about the lack of cultural or a huge VFR market.
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