BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14352 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 22178 times:
Quoting TFFIP (Thread starter): meaning are they the part time property of Lufthansa?
No. They are still BD's planes with their crews and maintained by their people. All they do is fly the Lufhansa schedule with Lufthansa flight numbers.
Such planes (like all leased aircraft) are not counted as assets, and only effect the company's cash flow.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Lobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 22029 times:
Quoting DHR (Reply 2): It all depends on how many hours it was operating for each month.
True, usually wetlease contracts include a clause stating minimum guaranteed hours (MGH) that the lessee guarantees to pay to the lessor at a fixed rate. Even if the aircraft is not flown at all or below the MGH the lessee is obligded to pay the amount guaranteed in that clause. If the aircraft is higher utilized than the MGH the lessee has to pay in addition to the MGH. Usually the rate for additional hours is lower than the one for the MGH.
Though a rather high level approximation, a rule of thumb for a first guess of the wetlease costs of an aircraft (ACMI) exists: The average ACMI cost per months is somewhere between 500% (new aircraft) and 1000% (old aircraft) of the average market dry lease rate of the respective aircraft.
Caryjack From United States of America, joined May 2007, 265 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 21964 times:
Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 1): I actually think this is a very interesting question.
Me too.
Quoting Lobster (Reply 4): Though a rather high level approximation, a rule of thumb for a first guess of the wetlease costs of an aircraft (ACMI) exists: The average ACMI cost per months is somewhere between 500% (new aircraft) and 1000% (old aircraft) of the average market dry lease rate of the respective aircraft.
This is a very good start. Now if someone could tell us a little about average market dry lease rates we'd have a clearer picture of wet lease costs. ACMI - ¿Average Cost Monthly Index?
Thanks,
Cary
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 21852 times:
Quoting TFFIP (Thread starter): Do the aircraft in a wet lease sort of become like a car hire
- meaning are they the part time property of Lufthansa?
A hired car always remains the full property of the particular car hire company......it's certainly never the 'part-time property' of the person hiring it.
TFFIP From Singapore, joined Nov 2008, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 21848 times:
I guess what I mean is that a wet leased aircraft is at the disposal of the leaser, so those planes will do nothing but what Lufthansa wants for how ever long the agreement lasts (2 years i think)
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6628 posts, RR: 17 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 21763 times:
Effectively the LH use of a BD aircraft for their TXL-LHR-TXL service - it is an A319 - appears to be the equivalent to a full time ACMI lease. There are three rotations a day - LH1438/39, LH4840/41 and LH4842/43 - that are timed so that they can be operated by a single aircraft that overnights at TXL.
Of course BD has the opportunity of switching the aircraft each time it arrives at LHR but, for example, a single aircraft, G-DBCB, operated all three daily rotations on 25, 26 and on 27 April.
TFFIP From Singapore, joined Nov 2008, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 21714 times:
G-DBCA used for Lufthansa Italia (MXP only)
G-DBCB used for Lufthansa (TXL only)
Both aircraft are in the process of being refitted to LHI and LH configurations
and interior cosmetics (I believe for certain galley fittings too)
BD
Lobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 21679 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 11): Of course BD has the opportunity of switching the aircraft each time it arrives at LHR but, for example, a single aircraft, G-DBCB, operated all three daily rotations on 25, 26 and on 27 April.
BD should not have the opportunity to do so. Usually a wetlease contract is made for a specific aircraft with the tail number of that same aircraft being in the contract.
Quoting Caryjack (Reply 6): This is a very good start. Now if someone could tell us a little about average market dry lease rates we'd have a clearer picture of wet lease costs. ACMI - ¿Average Cost Monthly Index?
The latest figures I saw for a 319's market dry lease rate is 160,000 - 295,000 USD / month.
Quoting TFFIP (Reply 12): G-DBCA used for Lufthansa Italia (MXP only)
G-DBCB used for Lufthansa (TXL only)
G-DBCA & G-DBCB are both from ILFC and build year 2004. Hence, they should be somewhere in the middle of the above mentioned numbers. If I would have to guess I'd say the wetlease cost for the aircraft should be somewhere between 1,3m - 1.5m USD per month each.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6628 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 21522 times:
Quoting Lobster (Reply 13): BD should not have the opportunity to do so. Usually a wetlease contract is made for a specific aircraft with the tail number of that same aircraft being in the contract.
This is not necessarily the case. I guess it depends on the terms of the contract. For example because of a cabin crew shortage at LGW, BA wet leased an aircraft from Astraeus for the first three months of 2008.
The lease started on 30 December 2007 with 752 G-STRY operating for BA. Over the following month, depending on the day of the week, Astraeus operated either LGW-EDI-LGW-VAR-LGW or LGW-EDI-LGW-KRK-LGW with a LGW-MAN-LGW rotation sometimes substituted for the LGW-EDI-LGW rotation.
On 31 December 752 G-STRZ replaced G-STRY.
On 1 and 2 January the flights were again operated by STRY.
752 G-OPJB in full Astraeus livery took over the BA flights for 3 and 4 January.
STRY was back operating the BA services on 5 January but was again replaced by OPJB on 6 January before returning to again operate these flights on 7 and 8 January.
STRZ took over the contract on 9 January and STRY was substituted by Astraeus on 10 January and then continued to operate the contract up until 23 January when 737 G-STRF in full Astraeus livery operated the BA flights.
I could go on but think the variability of the aircraft operating this single aircraft contract is now clear.
Of course there will be other examples where only one aircraft is used for the duration of a contract.
Interestingly enough following the end of the Astraeus contract with BA at the end of March 2008 both STRX and STRY that had been painted in all-white colours while intermittently operating for BA:
were operated by Astraeus on a similar contract for BD. However these two aircraft were painted in partial BD livery before that contract started in early May 2008:
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ACMI - ¿Average Cost Monthly Index? 
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