DAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 404 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9734 times:
I have always wondered, especially since I had my very first earthquake in RHO last Summer - what happens if an aircraft is on final, an earthquake strikes and the ILS goes berserk? Of course, if visibility is fine and the pilot's flying, nothing to worry about. But what if there's a CAT II/III ILS approach and they have to use the autoland?
Some will say "what are the chances?". Well, I don't know - but is there anything to prevent the ILS from being destroyed by an earthquake. I won't make reference to any magnitude because the strength of a seismological activity depends on the area it's happening so it would be irrelevant.
Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
Bbinn333 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9675 times:
I was on a plane to Hawaii, an AA 762 from DFW and we landed directly after an earthquake. There was not much to make of it, so pax on a CO flight we shaken up a bit though as they landed during it... I did not ask about their experiance.
QF744FAN From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 116 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9673 times:
My guess would be that if anything did happen to the ILS equipment, the pilots would be pretty quick to see it reflected on their displays. Earthquakes only really last a couple of seconds, so it should be a simple task of just hitting the TOGA switches and coming back to try again.
Any compromising of the runway (or the equipment in autoland conditions) would just mean diversion to alternate.
DAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 404 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9602 times:
Quoting QF744FAN (Reply 2): My guess would be that if anything did happen to the ILS equipment, the pilots would be pretty quick to see it reflected on their displays. Earthquakes only really last a couple of seconds, so it should be a simple task of just hitting the TOGA switches and coming back to try again.
Any compromising of the runway (or the equipment in autoland conditions) would just mean diversion to alternate.
Well, my earthquake lasted for 3 minutes!! As I said, what if there is a low visibility situation and something similar to TK @ EHAM happens - The throttles go into idle and etc. ?
Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
Jkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9599 times:
Interesting question...
From what I understand, Localizer and Glide Slope indications are constantly monitored and will automatically shut off if it starts to deviate from what it is intended to broadcast (i.e. the degrees/angle it is set to). The pilot on the approach would then get a flag indicating the ILS shouldn't be used/trusted for guidance and a missed approach would be executed. This may only apply to some ILS systems, I don't know this for sure.
Not only that, but I would assume a controller would broadcast on ATC (assuming it is a controlled field) there is an earthquake, thus warning pilots.
QF744FAN From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 116 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9566 times:
Quoting Jkudall (Reply 4):
From what I understand, Localizer and Glide Slope indications are constantly monitored and will automatically shut off if it starts to deviate from what it is intended to broadcast (i.e. the degrees/angle it is set to). The pilot on the approach would then get a flag indicating the ILS shouldn't be used/trusted for guidance and a missed approach would be executed.
I think you're spot on here
Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 3): something similar to TK @ EHAM happens - The throttles go into idle and etc. ?
I would imagine that if a quake started after your throttles have retarded, and you've finished your flare and about to put her down.... You'll be fine. The landing may well be bumpy, but the runway isn't going to move it's own width in the time it takes to fly the last 20ft. The issues would be with cracks occuring in the runway, and possibly braking action if poor tyre contact is made. But at a monitored airport there would be contact between the pilot and tower, more runway used to slow down (or dodge cracks ) and the following aircraft told to go around.
Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 3): As I said, what if there is a low visibility situation
Again... Sort of the other possible play out, if you haven't cut your power.... TOGA switches
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4739 posts, RR: 30 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9495 times:
We had a good shaker here in SEA in 2001. The tower blew out some windows, and IIRC, the tower told all aircraft to hold and or go around during the quake.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9371 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 6): We had a good shaker here in SEA in 2001.
I totally remember that! The tower was busted as you said, SEA made a makeshaft tower on the other side of the airport out of a mobile home! I wonder if there were any pics shot of the temporary 'tower'..... but it was funny looking nonetheless...and creative, too!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9259 times:
Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 3): As I said, what if there is a low visibility situation and something similar to TK @ EHAM happens - The throttles go into idle and etc. ?
What if this all happens just as the sun is exploding? In other words, it's not going to happen...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Chrisjw From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 114 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9233 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7): I totally remember that! The tower was busted as you said, SEA made a makeshaft tower on the other side of the airport out of a mobile home! I wonder if there were any pics shot of the temporary 'tower'..... but it was funny looking nonetheless...and creative, too!
Thats really interesting, I didn't know that. I remember that quake. 5th Grade, Mr Fal's class.
ThePalauan From Guam, joined Oct 2006, 264 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9200 times:
Didn't the movie Earthquake have a 707 landing at LAX during the big one? I think as the plane touches down, the captain makes the decision a few seconds in that he's taking off and heading elsewhere.
What would be standard procedure in a situation like this? Ditch the current airport and head elsewhere or continue the landing phase and then await further instructions?
You can take the boy out of the island, but not the island out of the boy!
SANAV8R From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 215 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9143 times:
Quoting QF744FAN (Reply 2): Earthquakes only really last a couple of seconds
Some can last a few seconds, some can last several minutes. With aftershocks right after or lasting for days. Most of the ones that I can recall I've been in last no more a few seconds, ten at the most.
Quoting ThePalauan (Reply 10): Didn't the movie Earthquake have a 707 landing at LAX during the big one? I think as the plane touches down, the captain makes the decision a few seconds in that he's taking off and heading elsewhere.
Yes, a Continental Airlines flight that was heading onwards to Hawaii (probably CO 3) starts to lands during a 9.9 magnitude Earthquake (eerily a little more than the very real 2004 Sumatra one). He then directs the plane towards San Francisco. They then get radio of the disaster and tell the passengers. In a subplot, there is a couple on board on there way to Hawaii for a convention, a young doctor and his wife. They decide to forgo Hawaii to volunteer for rescue help .
Right before they have a scene where people are outside of the Theme Building at LAX and holding onto railings and falling over as the (camera shakes) quake hits.
I'm sure that all major airports in known earthquake areas (LAX, SFO, MEX, NRT, ANC, well basically anywhere in the world that has seismic activity) have plans for earthquakes. I would assume they have people inspect the runways and tarmacs to ensure the safety of operations.
Kimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9033 times:
Quoting SANAV8R (Reply 11): I'm sure that all major airports in known earthquake areas (LAX, SFO, MEX, NRT, ANC, well basically anywhere in the world that has seismic activity) have plans for earthquakes. I would assume they have people inspect the runways and tarmacs to ensure the safety of operations
I’m sure the second an earth quake starts they would close the airport and get all aircraft to stop and remain where they are.
I don’t think it would matter what condition the ILS equipment would be in, as the aircraft would surely be told to go around and be put into a holding pattern while the damage is surveyed.
DAL763ER From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 404 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8926 times:
Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 12): I’m sure the second an earth quake starts they would close the airport and get all aircraft to stop and remain where they are.
Of course you can tell everyone to stop and remain where they are - you're in Microsoft Flight Simulator, aren't you?
Seriously now, my question regarded the plane 30 seconds - 1 minute to touchdown. The others can undoubtedly go around and follow a safety procedure.
Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8717 times:
Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 13): Seriously now, my question regarded the plane 30 seconds - 1 minute to touchdown. The others can undoubtedly go around and follow a safety procedure.
When a plane is on approach right up to touchdown, the flight crew is planning to execute a last second go around. Flight crews are trained their first priority on approach is a successful missed approach. Thirty seconds, one minute from touchdown - plenty of time to execute the MA.
A crew on an autoland approach is going to get warnings and go around if the ILS system gets knocked out of alignment or out of service.
For a plane already in flare, with throttles retarded, the crew will probably set it down. They won't really notice that something is happening unless it is an extremely severe earthquake.
I cannot remember an earthquake except Alaska Good Friday Quake in 1963 or 64 which actually damaged a runway enough to be a danger to landing aircraft.
I've talked to pilots who set down Navy fighters and patrol aircraft when quakes up to 5 were occuring in Japan. They did not notice the quake until the tower told them.
As far as loss of tower / communications. There are lost communications procedures in place. In very general terms if they are close enough to landing to see the runway and see the entire length of the runway is clear, they can land. If they cannot see the runway, go around.
But remember, the level of earthquake you are talking about - the crew will be able to see damage occuring, things are going to ...... Pilots generally are pretty smart people, if it looks dangerous, they are not going to land.
There may be a few second window where a plane could set down on a dangerous runway in a major catastrophic earthquake. That's just the way the world works. Nothing is perfect and completely failsafe. And in such an earthquake, one aircraft and it's passengers lost isn't going to be more than a footnote.
EXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8694 times:
Quoting Bbinn333 (Reply 1): I was on a plane to Hawaii, an AA 762 from DFW and we landed directly after an earthquake
When did AA ever fly 762s on DFW-HNL? a sub?
Quoting ThePalauan (Reply 10): Didn't the movie Earthquake have a 707 landing at LAX during the big one? I think as the plane touches down, the captain makes the decision a few seconds in that he's taking off and heading elsewhere.
Quoting SANAV8R (Reply 11): Yes, a Continental Airlines flight that was heading onwards to Hawaii (probably CO 3) starts to lands during a 9.9 magnitude Earthquake (eerily a little more than the very real 2004 Sumatra one). He then directs the plane towards San Francisco. They then get radio of the disaster and tell the passengers. In a subplot, there is a couple on board on there way to Hawaii for a convention, a young doctor and his wife. They decide to forgo Hawaii to volunteer for rescue help .
I think in the movie it was clearly a TWA 707......the first thing I though of when I saw this thread was that scene
EADC8 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7987 times:
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 15): I think in the movie it was clearly a TWA 707......the first thing I though of when I saw this thread was that scene
Actually, I'm 99% positive that it was a TWA Convair 880. If you can find a clip of the movie, you can clearly see it is a Convair and not a 707. At least the approach shots are. Anyone else want to confirm?
Jbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7271 times:
Quoting ThePalauan (Reply 10): What would be standard procedure in a situation like this? Ditch the current airport and head elsewhere or continue the landing phase and then await further instructions?
All depends on where you are and if it is possible to get anywhere else that is safe, and if the quake is large enough to cause runway damage then you might wonder if there is any benefit in trying to go elsewhere as other regional airports might also be affected.
The larger the quake the less you want to end up there as you might end up stuck for a period of time, along with general issues of having large groups of people stuck at an airport with potential for limited facilities and not being able to get them out.
Deltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1589 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6682 times:
Okay a few myths about earthquakes on here.
FIRST, 90% only last a few seconds. MAJOR ones last up to a minute, 3? Thats pushing it, not in N. AMerica, Cental America or Japan, don't know where RHO is.
IF the quake is big enough that the ILS goes dowm, they will just abort the landing. End of story.
At end of day, MAJOR earthquakes in major civilized airport hubs (NRT, LAX, SFO, MEX, etc) are pretty rare, like maybe one every 50 -100 years. So with hundreds of thousands if not millions of flights in between that time period, again, the odds of one in a million being in that situation, I'm sure they'll just abort.
NOW, for the normal garden variety quakes these regions experience, 3, 4 and 5 magnitudes, again, they LAST seconds, and are only damaging RIGHT on the epicenter. As soon as you get 5 miles out, if you are driving you won't notice, if you are at a loud public place or party, you won't notice. Hollywood likes to make it look like no matter how small, there is LOUD roar, just not true. We had a 4.4 here in LA yesterday, I didn't hear a thing but just noticed my couch wiggling a little. I don't live to far from LAX so I imagine a 737 landing at 145+ knots during that 5 second shuffle would easily not know/feel a thing.
DingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6030 times:
Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 19): IF the quake is big enough that the ILS goes dowm, they will just abort the landing. End of story.
Wanted to point out that kind of situation would likely fall under the captain's discretion on how to handle. For a normal situation with simple ILS failure, I'd probably agree with you there since it's likely other runways at the same airport or at the alternate wouldn't be affected. But this kind of situation (earthquake while on final) is quite abnormal and very much a judgement call.
If it's a decent VMC day, runway environment well in sight, you're at or below the DH/MDA... you could go ahead and land, barring the runway breaking up in half underneath you -- if deemed appropriate. If very close to DH, you consider all sorts of factors -- alternates, likelihood for the situation to improve if you go missed, do a 360 (orbit), retry or divert, amongst other things.
You'd also take into account the fact that you're not likely to have tower or ground services during such an event, so you'd be on your own there for traffic separation -- which implies you'd want reasonable visibility to do that safely on your own.
If it's an IMC day with low minima... that's where the crew definitely earns their pay. It's still a judgement call, not an automatic no-go. For instance, you will have enough fuel to divert to the alternate plus holding time. But in a situation like this where it's a major earthquake, how do you know the alternate will be OK? And that you won't be holding in a long queue full of diverts bringing you to a fuel emergency? On final, you won't have the time to consult with company dispatch to get the big picture or sort out the situation.
I'd think that as long as it was at least a Cat I landing and you'd broken out to see the runway environment, one still has the option of completing the landing if deemed the safest overall option based on what's currently known, even during an earthquake. For a Cat III approach, loss of ILS, ouch, yeah, I'd probably want to try climbing back up if possible.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21495 posts, RR: 24 Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6006 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7): Quoting F9Animal (Reply 6):
We had a good shaker here in SEA in 2001.
I totally remember that! The tower was busted as you said, SEA made a makeshaft tower on the other side of the airport out of a mobile home! I wonder if there were any pics shot of the temporary 'tower'..... but it was funny looking nonetheless...and creative, too!
4EVERVARIG From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 66 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5917 times:
I remember once returning from MIA (a long time ago when UA flew 777s to MIA) in a UA 777 when there was a shaker in LAX early morning, right when the aircraft was making its final turns to align with 25L. Pilot was very cool about it, and informed the passengers we would fly to MARCH AIR BASE while LAX landing runways were being inspected. He informed that the shaker was estimated around 4.0 and centered in the Pacific Ocean. Once we were headed to MARCH AIR BASE, the flight was redirected to return to LAX. The pilot explained that LAX was safe for operations and that we were ok to land. We landed at LAX without incident.
Eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 956 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5778 times:
Quoting SANAV8R (Reply 11):
Yes, a Continental Airlines flight that was heading onwards to Hawaii (probably CO 3) starts to lands during a 9.9 magnitude Earthquake (eerily a little more than the very real 2004 Sumatra one). He then directs the plane towards San Francisco. They then get radio of the disaster and tell the passengers. In a subplot, there is a couple on board on there way to Hawaii for a convention, a young doctor and his wife. They decide to forgo Hawaii to volunteer for rescue help .
I don´t think it was a 9.9 magnitude earthquake as the biggest earthquake in history was a 9.5 in Chile. There is no way that a large earthquake could happen in Hawaii because it is not on a tectonic fault line but rather in the middle of the pacific plate. The only reason for earthquakes in Hawaii would be because of lava movements and those don´t create large earthquakes. And the reason for volcanic activity in Hawaii is because there is a hot spot under it, a hot spot is a place where the crust is thinner than in other places so there is more magma flow from the mantle.
LGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1101 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5726 times:
I was in a high rise hotel near SNA when the 1992 Landers quake hit about 500AM, quite an experience. About 1000 that morning we had driven to LAX and where sitting onboard an Air Canada 742 preparing for departure to YYZ. I was in a right side window seat just forward of the wing, when a MAJOR aftershock occured. The sight of the big Boeings right wing moving slighly up and down like in a moderate turburlance but with a fuel truck attached and fueling in progress scared the you know what out of me. The whole thing lasted less than 30 seconds and we ended up departing on time. The epicenter of the quake was northeast of LA in the Mohave desert and the captain pointed it out as we passed right over it about 20 mins after departure, there was a huge dust cloud on the ground. Here is a link to info about the quake.
I realize this is slightly off topic but though my experiance was worth sharing. Ironically I had just finished attending the wonderful 1992 Airliners International Convention at SNA/LAXMHV.
DingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5708 times:
Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 23): I don´t think it was a 9.9 magnitude earthquake as the biggest earthquake in history was a 9.5 in Chile.
I don't watch TV or movies so I didn't catch it at first, either. (I'm probably in the tiny minority here who just simply doesn't have the interest. I stopped watching TV on any regular basis over 20 years ago.)
But he's actually referring to a fictional situation that happened in the movie. The hint was when he mentioned 'subplot' and 'camera shake'.
26 Oa260: 6.4 Earthquake Strikes Rhodes Tuesday July 15, 2008 A strong earthquake centered underwater near the Greek island of Rhodes sent residents and touris
27 DingDong: If it's any comfort, you'll also often see this (normal) wing flex on a normal departure when riding a large Boeing loaded to the gills with pax/carg
28 Eaa3: That´s funny. Seems that I only read the first two sentences and the thing about a 9.9 magnitude earthquake caught my eye and I didn´t read it any
29 SANAV8R: Probably right. It's been so many years since I've seen the movie, It's odd how I can remember the other scenes much more clearly yet not the airplan
30 ThirtyEcho: ...and an exploding gas main sends fire down the entire length of the runway just as a meteorite smashes the glideslope transmitter and pieces of it
31 FrmrCAPCADET: The Alaskan earthquake of 1964 lasted almost 5 minutes. The Cascadia great earthquakes off the Pacific Northwest Coast are similar to Sumatra and Ala
32 Eghansen: Several things can happen during an earthquake that would cause problems at an airport. One of the first things is that all the electricity goes out.
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) and the following aircraft told to go around.
From Guam, joined Oct 2006, 264 posts, 
It's still a judgement call, not an automatic no-go. For instance, you will have enough fuel to divert to the alternate plus holding time. But in a situation like this where it's a major earthquake, how do you know the alternate will be OK? And that you won't be holding in a long queue full of diverts bringing you to a fuel emergency? On final, you won't have the time to consult with company dispatch to get the big picture or sort out the situation.
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