SKORD From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 562 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4107 times:
Not really. VLM focuses on Business travel, hense their huge amount of flights at LCY. KL has a similar business model, but from the UK regional airports they rely hevily on passengers connecting onwards on the KL long-haul network.
KL have just started LPL-AMS and i would guess that this is purely for the long-haul feed. On this route they are in tough competition with EZY who have being doing it for years. Lets face it... if KL dont do it from the UK to AMS... its not worth doing!!!
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11141 posts, RR: 63 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4090 times:
If, and it's still a big IF right now, the runway extension goes ahead at PLH then I would expect to see either KLM or AF serving the city. That's not just wishful thinking, there's a large number of SkyTeam/FB Elites in the South West who currently trek up to BRS and fly from there. EXT could be a possibility, but it would be a compromise between hijacking traffic which would otherwise go to BRS anyway, and assessing how traffic levels there would be affected.
EMA is too close to BHX, and with MAN and LBA also served to the North it would be overkill. NQY is too seasonal, and it's a pain to get to from Plymouth, I doubt Cornwall alone could support a service. DSA is unlikely, being sandwiched between Humberside and LBA and I think SOU has more of a chance over BOU, but as AF already serves SOU they may be happy just to feed connecting traffic through CDG instead.
Depending on how the economical slowdown bites, I'd have thought a return to Belfast was possible, the all of the CityHopper fleet can get in and out of BHD quite happily. On the mainland UK I think if anything we'll just see capacity increases, with more flights being upgraded from the Embraers/Fokkers to the 737, and perhaps a few extra frequencies here and there.
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3962 times:
Quoting Seemyseems (Thread starter): I was wondering if KL will start any more UK routes, they already have a very good coverage but they could serve more airports, I was thinking maybe;
EMA
NQY
DSA
BOH
SOU
(Do any of these airports have jetways?)
Is there a reason why KL dosen't serve these routes?
I sort of understand why they don't serve EMA as BHX is quite close.
They´ve already had flights to DSA, EMA and SOU but stopped them. SOU is now served by FlyBE thus no chance KL will compete with a low cost airline. Furthermore SOU wasn´t a big route (they used to fly the route with SAAB 340) DSA an EMA weren´t profitable.
BOH was already served ex AMS by another airline in the past but wasn´t a big route.
KL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3916 times:
Quoting LJ (Reply 4): Furthermore SOU wasn´t a big route (they used to fly the route with SAAB 340)
SOU it was one of the original destinations served by Netherlines (amongst Bristol and Cardiff), initially served with Jetstreams. After Netherlines and NLM Cityhopper merged and were taken over by KLM SF340s were deployed. At some point in the early 2000s Scot Airways took over KLM services IIRC. The latter stopped as a result om FlyBe competition.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3594 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3827 times:
Quoting KL577 (Reply 5): . At some point in the early 2000s Scot Airways took over KLM services IIRC. The latter stopped as a result om FlyBe competition.
Wasn't there a short-lived KLM Cityhopper service after the Scot Airways service? (or was this pulled even before it started because of Flybe appearing on the scene?)
Quoting LJ (Reply 4): They´ve already had flights to DSA, EMA and SOU but stopped them.
AMS-DSA by KLM - are you sure? (or are you talking about another airline?)
Quoting LJ (Reply 4): BOH was already served ex AMS by another airline in the past but wasn´t a big route.
Euroscot. But that was a point-to-point LCC-style service.
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3590 times:
Although it's most unlikely, it would be nice to see them restart their Belfast-AMS route......either BHD or BFS, although BHD might be better to avoid competition.
Seemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 955 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3529 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 11): Although it's most unlikely, it would be nice to see them restart their Belfast-AMS route......either BHD or BFS, although BHD might be better to avoid competition.
I find it odd how KL misses out Northern Ireland, and ROI. But they have good codeshares with Aer Lingus, plus AF-KL own WX (which only flies to BSL from AMS).
Could we see an AMS-BHD route soon or maybe an AMS-DUB (with KL)?
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3508 times:
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 12): I find it odd how KL misses out Northern Ireland, and ROI. But they have good codeshares with Aer Lingus, plus AF-KL own WX (which only flies to BSL from AMS).
Could we see an AMS-BHD route soon or maybe an AMS-DUB (with KL)?
KLM Cityhopper used to fly BFS-AMS quite successfully but pulled the route a few years ago. Now that EI has stopped it (timings were completely wrong) I would love a BHD-AMS from KL......which would avoid competition with EasyJet at BFS, even though their 1X daily is timed atrociously
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3497 times:
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 12):
I find it odd how KL misses out Northern Ireland, and ROI. But they have good codeshares with Aer Lingus, plus AF-KL own WX (which only flies to BSL from AMS).
CityJet also operates the AMS-LCY route on behalf of KL/VG.
Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 12): Could we see an AMS-BHD route soon or maybe an AMS-DUB (with KL)?
The Belfast route wasn´t profitable hence the reason why KL left. Ireland has very big economic problems and thus is not an attractive market for KL to start operations next to Aer Lingus. Furthermore KL has always been very happy with the EI codeshare thus tehre is no reason for KL to start ops to Ireland.
WAC From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3455 times:
INV a while back was on the cards but like with SAS aircraft size and seasonality is the great question....we can wait and see if LH's service to INV succeeds or not.... as for the rest of the UK AF/KL serve the UK far better than BA in terms of geography.
BrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3808 posts, RR: 10 Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3447 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 3): Depending on how the economical slowdown bites, I'd have thought a return to Belfast was possible, the all of the CityHopper fleet can get in and out of BHD quite happily.
Im not sure Belfast would work. EI lost their shirt on BFS-AMS, despite twice daily services, although the promised KL code-share not materialising may have had something to do with it.
Ireland is a very difficult market, many airlines have come and gone over the years.
Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3429 times:
Didn't KLC or KLMUk operate regular services to Tinsley International Marshalling Yard- oh sorry thats Sheffield City using Fk50s for about four or five years and before the BIGGEST WHITE ELEPHANT of an airport closed to commercial traffic !
Humberside has some valuable marine and oil/gas traffic that allegedly sustains the route .
Yeadon has had KLC/NLM service for decades.
As to Finningley (Doncaster) with the facilities runway length and access If this country had proper and coherent regional governance this airport really would be THE main airport for East of the Peninnes in the future.
i.e. Its NOT on the side of small mountain and its NOT in the middle of rural Lincolnshire!), however thats wishful thinking and not to be so both Yeadon and Humberside will continue to see KLC with Doncaster being piggy in the middle and no KLC service for some time.
As to East Midlands I suspect that KLC could sustain three flights with an FK50, however the geography IS an issue with Birmingham/Manchester/Leeds Heathrow and even Luton chasing after its business.
Moving to the west of Bristol i see little traffic opportunities currently and as others have said in the case of St Mawgan only a weekly high season from/to Amsterdam might just work, (although just how you get a mobile home and surf board on a Fk50 is beyond me). Second thoughts i suppose most short break Dutch visitors must prefer to escape via the 2.5 hour traffic jamb from Breda to Antwerp on a Friday afternoon,then overnight ferry and nine hour road journey across England !
Between Bournemouth and Southampton i actually expect KLc to restore SOU at some point.
The previous Southampton service was ceded to Suckling/ScotAirways as a rationalization (they code shared)
The route was dropped after Suckling/Scot decided to concentrate at LCY and of the four rotes identified by Seemyseem (Post originator)
Southampton remains in the KLM booking engine actually.
PlymSpotter
Quote: AF already serves SOU they may be happy just to feed connecting traffic through CDG instead.
Actually the AF Southampton services operate in ORLY !
They are designed to connect with French domestic services for the Surrey Hampshire and West Sussex second home owners to get to their gites in the South and South West of France.
NQYGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3410 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 3): If, and it's still a big IF right now, the runway extension goes ahead at PLH then I would expect to see either KLM or AF serving the city. That's not just wishful thinking, there's a large number of SkyTeam/FB Elites in the South West who currently trek up to BRS and fly from there. EXT could be a possibility, but it would be a compromise between hijacking traffic which would otherwise go to BRS anyway, and assessing how traffic levels there would be affected.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11141 posts, RR: 63 Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3321 times:
Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 17): Actually the AF Southampton services operate in ORLY !
They are designed to connect with French domestic services for the Surrey Hampshire and West Sussex second home owners to get to their gites in the South and South West of France.
Ahh, very interesting. As per another thread in this forum, I can't check AF right now, but presumed it was CDG.
Quoting NQYGuy (Reply 18): Could a Fokker 50 not handle PLH, Dan?
Yeah quite happily, DenimAir operated quite a few flights with the F50 for Air Southwest a few years ago when a Dash suffered an engine fire at LGW (IIRC). The F50 fleet is expected to be the next due for retirement in a few years time so, with the likely replacements being either the ATR72-600 or Dash 8-Q400, it would be unwise to start a route knowing that in a few years time your new aircraft would be too big to operate from the current airport infrastructure.
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3251 times:
I don't think the fact that one airport is too close another that KL already flies to is a particularly good reason why they would not consider flying there.
For example they have just started flying to LPL when they already fly to MAN, only 24 miles away and they fly to both NCL and MME which are only 38 miles apart. So I don't see why flying to EMA which is 32 miles away from BHX can be seen as so outrageous, or even flying to DSA, which is 38 miles from LBA. Easyjet for example flies to many of the same destinations from both LTN and STN ( EDI, GLA, BFS, AMS, GVA, NCE, BCN, FAO, AGP, ALC) and they are only 24 miles apart from other.
It would appear to me that England, more than anywhere else, is a place that can definitely support services to the same destinations from neighbouring airports. It is in fact incredibly urbanised with a very high population density, 392 people per square kilometre (this is just for England, not the UK), almost as much as the Netherlands itself, but it has a lot more people: 50 million compared to 17.
I don't know how pertinent of an example this is but lets say that someone in Nottingham wants to fly to Bangkok and in this scenario KL does fly to EMA. The KL option leaving from EMA and changing in AMS could even be a bit more expensive than the EK option leaving from BHX and changing in DXB, but the prospective passenger might be willing to pay more for the convenience to fly out of a closer airport. And if the two itineraries are the same price, then the customer will most definitely choose KL out of EMA (unless of course they specifically have a preference for EK).
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 20): For example they have just started flying to LPL when they already fly to MAN, only 24 miles away and they fly to both NCL and MME which are only 38 miles apart. So I don't see why flying to EMA which is 32 miles away from BHX can be seen as so outrageous, or even flying to DSA, which is 38 miles from LBA.
The choice for LPL has suprised me as indeed it´s very close to MAN. Apparantly the LPL/MAN catchment area needs more flights and KL couldn´t get the necessary slots at MAN.
Both NCL, MME and LBA have local (corporate) traffic which warrant a service (allthough with the partial sale of Corus´ Teesside facility the traffic will probably reduce). A route without much local (corporate) depend heavily on businesses around that area. I recall that the Sheffield route was such a route. The Sheffield market had to sustain the flight as there wasn´tmuch local trafiic between The Netherlands and Sheffield. EMA is just not profitable anymore (the route used to be served by BMI for years but somehow wasn´t profitable anymore...).
Quoting Thestooges (Reply 20): It would appear to me that England, more than anywhere else, is a place that can definitely support services to the same destinations from neighbouring airports. It is in fact incredibly urbanised with a very high population density, 392 people per square kilometre (this is just for England, not the UK), almost as much as the Netherlands itself, but it has a lot more people: 50 million compared to 17.
The fact that at a certain catchment area live a lot of people is not vey important for an airline. It´s the yield a certain catchment area generates. In general this means that the amount of business traffic a certain area generates is much more important than the number of potential pax (as business traffic is usually higher yielding).
Thestooges From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3159 times:
Quoting LJ (Reply 21): The fact that at a certain catchment area live a lot of people is not vey important for an airline. It´s the yield a certain catchment area generates. In general this means that the amount of business traffic a certain area generates is much more important than the number of potential pax (as business traffic is usually higher yielding).
Exactly. If KL choose not to fly to EMA, it won't be because its too close to BHX, but because the midlands just don't have enough high yielding passengers to support service to AMS from two aiports in the area.
Rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3094 times:
Thestooges and LJ whilst both of you do have a point and yield should not be discounted in the case of UK regional- Amsterdam service there are other factors to consider.
1) Yield from Business travel (Point to Point) actually accounts for a small but important element.
A significant element of small trading business UK/Dutch relationships however are British
importers of manufactured goods from South and East of The Netherlands.
The location of Schiphol and the endless Traffic jambs radiating from Amsterdam down to
Waadenberg and eastward to Amersfort can actually makes Dusseldorf more convenient !
The other significant Agricultural and Horticultural industries are done over the Internet and
via wholesalers and actually provide little in the way of self loading freight.
2) A significant majority of UK-Amsterdam traffic is connecting feed and the yield on the UK
sector is actually marginal with through long haul tickets being LOWER priced than out of
Amsterdam in many cases!
3) Certain leisure activities ensure the back of the planes are full especially from Thursday afternoon going to Amsterdam through to Monday lunch time on the return-This is bums on seats however very low yield I am afraid to say.
Is it not also true to say that KLM has been turned into something of a Long Haul low cost operator by AF as it has NO First service at all and sardine conditions on the 777s they are following a bums on seats strategy rather than yield potential (more money from fewer people) approach ?
25 Thestooges: Oh no, I'm not necessarily saying that it has anything to do with yield, but that it might be a possible explanation however. Basically I don't think
27 David_itl: The combined ops look like this: KL1072 dep MAN 0600 KL1034 dep LPL 0615 KL1073 arr MAN 0835 KL1074 dep MAN 0925 KL1037 arr LPL 0950 KL1038 dep LPL 1
28 Vfw614: As did Euroscot: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5243/is_199810/ai_n19815479/ Service was initially announced for November 1998, but then pus
29 Raffik: What about services out of SEN? Could any be sustained other than Flybe's seasonal Jersey route?
30 By188b: KLM UK also used to serve Inverness once daily from Amsterdam but scrapped the route in 1998.
31 SKORD: Regarding LPL, i do recall reading on another thread that it HAS to be a stand-alone route. If its proven that it takes traffic and revenue away from
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