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Impact Of EK A 380 In YYZ On Jet Airways  
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4441 posts, RR: 43
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8282 times:

Dear All,

Many weeks ago, I had mentioned that with Emirates bringing the A 380 into the Toronto market, major ramifications are in store for many airlines but mostly for Jet Airways. In this report, I will explain in detail as to why I feel 9W (Jet Airways) in particular to lose than any other carrier with not only EK bringing the A 380 to YYZ but also Turkish Airlines (TK) starting new flights and Etihad Airways (EY) increasing capacity on the AUH-YYZ sector with the B 77W replacing their A 346.

Please note that these observations and theories are of my own. Do feel free to write back with your feed back and 'constructive' criticism.

Synopsis on EK in YYZ:

Emirates has officially announced that due to its Dubai-JFK route seeing dismal loads and yields on it’s A 380 operated flights in particular, it will be taking the giant whale jet of this route and placing it on more higher demand sectors such as 3 weekly DXB-YYZ + daily DXB-BKK. By doing so, EK is increasing capacity on the Toronto route from 1074 seats per week to 1467 which is 397 more or 37%. EK’s A 380 seat 14 in first class, 76 in business class and 399 in economy. This will be effective from June 1st 2009. To/from YYZ, EK’s main passenger base hails from LHE, ISB, KHI, DEL, BOM, DAC, CMB and South India. They also get a high volume of O&D passengers on the YYZ-DXB-YYZ route i.e. 7500 passengers approximately in 2008 which is a 30% market share.

When EK made this announcement, it shocked everyone and upset many especially its direct competitors who were wondering if it’s easier to jump off a cliff rather than compete head on against EK’s A 380 to the Indian Subcontinent region from Toronto. Currently, EK’s loads to/from YYZ, average over 83% and what is most impressive is their load factor in the high yielding premium cabin. Not only that even though their fares from YYZ to any where in the Middle East, Far East and Indian Subcontinent region are approximately $ 100-150 more expensive than 9W, EY, AF, KL and BA, they still get passengers on board their flights who do not mind paying a small premium to experience their on board product.



Toronto Summer 2009 capacity increases:

For the IATA Summer 09 season, 3 airlines in particular have announced major expansion plans for their respective flights to Toronto. Already EK’s expansion has been highlighted above; the other 2 airlines are Etihad Airways and Turkish Airlines. With regards to the former, capacity is being increased from a 3 weekly 286 seater Airbus A 340-600 to a 378 seater Boeing 777-300ER. This means that capacity has been lifted by 92 seats per flight or 276 seats per week i.e. a 32% increase in capacity. Like EK, EY’s main target markets are passengers bound to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh from YYZ. But unlike EK, EY does not attract as much the high yield paying passenger in economy or business class which is due to the fact that they are still a relatively new airline which doesn’t have the brand recognition in Canada that EK has due to the latter’s longevity in existence. The B 77W’s that EY fly to Toronto seat 28 in business class and 350 in economy.

As for Turkish Airlines, the state of Turkey and Canada have recently signed a new air bilateral agreement that would allow TK to operate 3 weekly nonstop flights to Toronto from Istanbul for which the carrier has revealed its intentions to start flights from this June onwards. It is expected that TK will operate a nonstop flight using an Airbus A 330-200 which will seat approximately 220 passengers in a 2 class configuration. However, due to TK’s IST hub having an excellent geographical positioning on the world map, its target market from Toronto will be varied. Its focus primarily will be the large O&D market segment that exists between IST and YYZ and secondary will be 6th freedom traffic bound to AMM, BEY, CAI, DAM, THR, JED, RUH, DXB, KHI, BOM, DEL, ALA, TAS, GYD and KRT for which excellent connections are possible via its IST hub in both directions. The transit time in IST in each direction to these above mentioned cities ranges between 2-5 hours maximum in both directions.

So in retrospect effective June 1st 2009 onwards, a combined total of 1329 seats are being added by these 3 carriers combined per week which is nearly as much capacity that 9W offers out of Toronto on a weekly basis!


EK's Summer 2009 special A 380 seat sale fares effect on the market?

Few weeks ago, EK released into the market its special seat sale fares for the shoulder (June 1-17) and high season (June 18-Aug 31) which has really bamboozled the market due to its attractiveness. Their fare in the peak summer season from Toronto to DXB, THR, BOM, DEL, HYD, MAA, BLR, CPT and JNB ranges between CAD$ 1460 to $ 1590 all taxes inclusive and that too in one of their highest inventories such as W and E classes. Finding seats in this inventory class should not be a big problem and passengers will be willing to pay to fly EK to experience the A 380 more now with such a great deal on offer. There are other airlines who have come out with cheaper fares to India in particular in June-July but in their lowest inventory which is very hard to get hence rendering it virtually useless as time flies by.


Jet Airways market demographic in Toronto:

9W in YYZ is heavily dependant on passengers bound to BOM and DEL filling up their flights from YYZ. They also get a decent amount of 5th freedom traffic on the YYZ-BRU-YYZ sector and also a good chunk of the market bound to MAA. However, their market share to key interior points in India such as AMD, COK, TRV, BLR, HYD, ATQ, CCU is limited compared to EK in particular. With EY’s new summer schedule having all Indian cities connect within a 2-3 hour transit at AUH to/from YYZ, whatever market share 9W had to these cities will further evaporate as EY will provide a hassle free direct option for these passengers who don’t like to go via BOM/DEL/MAA to these cities as it involves clearing customs/immigrations and sometimes a change of terminal.


What about Air India as a threat to 9W?

According to various media releases in India and across the world, AI is expected to re-route its Toronto flights from October 26th via Frankfurt on a daily basis from Amritsar using the same Boeing 777-200ER. This would allow AI to offer YYZ based passengers for the first time ever, hassle free one stop options via FRA to DEL, BOM, AMD and ATQ thus further encroaching into 9W’s market share of BOM/DEL.

It is also worth pointing out that AI will be using their new Boeing 777-300ER on the DEL-FRA and BOM-FRA sectors which will definitely give them a lot of positive PR with the passengers that fly it as the in-flight product in all cabin classes on board is very good. Until this change comes about officially on the GDS, AI’s main market to/from YYZ is bound to ATQ and they also get reasonable 5th freedom + interline traffic on the YYZ-LHR-YYZ sector.

In Toronto, there are thousands of passengers who would prefer flying Air India than any other airline to DEL/BOM/AMD from YYZ due to their nationalistic pride of flying the state flag carrier and getting a feeling of “home” on board which is also why PIA is successful in YYZ especially after introducing its B 777s on this sector.


Could all of this lead to 9W possibly being forced to suspend Toronto?

After reviewing the above mentioned points, it is safe to say that 9W is largely dependant upon traffic bound to BOM and DEL from Toronto to fill its direct flights and any airline that adds flights or capacity to YYZ from the Middle East and Indian Subcontinent region will want a larger slice of the pie. What this means is that they will aggressively go after the BOM and DEL passengers thus further eroding 9Ws market share and also the revenue yield that it is been to able to generate thus far.

More competition, means a bitter fare war + lower yield in low season especially and market share diluted on the core route. We are already seeing definite signs of that happening on the YYZ-DEL/BOM-YYZ sector currently with net fares for May being $ 680 + tax on 9W and AF followed by KLM at $ 730. In the summer peak season when you usually expect net fares to BOM/DEL to be $ 1500 + taxes, it is this year $ 960 + taxes on 9W and LH where as AF is $ 805 + taxes followed by EY at $ 900 + taxes.

All these factors combined could result in 9W having no choice but to suspend YYZ bound flights within a year’s time because the route may not be commercially and financially viable to operate particularly in this lean economic time. One other key factor that everyone should consider is 9W’s access to “capital funding” and its company portfolio of being a “privately owned company”. What the latter means and refers to is that due to it not being controlled by the state of India, it stands to gain nothing from a government bail out in a time of crisis nor will the state inject some capital into the carrier to keep it afloat.

Unfortunately for 9W, its direct competitors on this route i.e. EK/EY/TK/AI enjoys this form of immunity, protection and financial clout that it does not possess as it’s not a government controlled entity. Eventually, 9W’s creditors will be pressurizing the airline to get its act together by initiating a thorough restructuring of its international route network by suspending or reducing flights to cities that suffer losses of a size able magnitude.


Conclusion:

The bottom line is this, to/from YYZ to India, 9W offers nothing unique for its passengers apart from its brand name recognition and good in-flight product/service. It is like everyone else offering “one stop” flight options to BOM/DEL/MAA. It must look at diversifying its passenger portfolio base by targetting passengers bound to SIN, KUL and BKK more aggressively from YYZ via BRU/INDIA as the connections on offer are very good. On the YYZ-BRU/BKK/SIN/KUL-BRU-YYZ sector, 9W's inability to attract passengers stems largely from its "pricing structure" on this sector which is higher than the competition by $ 200-400 even though the distance flown is virtually the same. They should look at how successful EY in particular has been in the past 2 years getting passengers from YYZ bound to BKK/SIN/KUL. Diversification allows them to be less dependent on one main market segment to fill up the flight and only through playing with a variety of "cards" does it have a good chance here! This is why EK has been so successful in YYZ more than any other Arab or Indian sub continent airline!


Rgds
Behramjee

PS: Once again, I would like to state the above mentioned view points are of my own and no one else's. Your feedback is always welcome and appreciated  Smile

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8242 times:

You don't mention PIA. Do they carry much 6th freedom traffic beyond Pakistan on their flights from YYZ?

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4441 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8222 times:

PIA fly nonstop from PAK to YYZ so no 5th freedom traffic they carry.

User currently offlineSq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7811 times:

Great analysis - you don't mention much about TK being a member of Star Alliance, and that IST is a Star hub. With Air Canada being a member of Star as well, surely there are some pretty significant ramifications of this partnership and how TK's entry to YYZ plays out?


Keep Discovering
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7769 times:



Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
The bottom line is this, to/from YYZ to India, 9W offers nothing unique for its passengers apart from its brand name recognition and good in-flight product/service

The moment they started stopping in BRU they eliminated themselves from the India<>North America competition.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10685 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7613 times:
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Very interesting analysis. Thank you. I do wonder how this will effect star alliance members. My one contention:

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
In Toronto, there are thousands of passengers who would prefer flying Air India

Everyone I know who pays a premium ticket to India would much rather fly 9W vs. AI. That said, if they haven't gained 'mindshare' in YYZ, it will hurt them. You cite low yeild fares for 9W, so perhaps YYZ isn't a sustainable route.  Sad

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
on 9W and AF followed by KLM at $ 730.

Why does it seem like AF is unable to maintain any yeild to India? Star Alliance partners seem to be having an easier time maintaining better yeild. Is there a particular reason I am unaware of?

Lightsaber


Life is short, Live it!
User currently offlineColts001 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7388 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):
Why does it seem like AF is unable to maintain any yeild to India? Star Alliance partners seem to be having an easier time maintaining better yeild. Is there a particular reason I am unaware of?

LH is well established in India and connects more cities with service to BOM, DEL, MAA, CCU, BLR, HYD & PNQ covering all the major cities. AF has service only to BOM, DEL & BLR. LH also has better name recognition compared to AF.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7275 times:



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 2):
PIA fly nonstop from PAK to YYZ so no 5th freedom traffic they carry.

Yes I know that, but my question referred to 6th freedom traffic beyond Pakistan, not 5th freedom. I was curious whether PK carried much traffic between YYZ and their other destinations in Asia with a connection in Pakistan.

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4441 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7210 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):

Yes I know that, but my question referred to 6th freedom traffic beyond Pakistan, not 5th freedom. I was curious whether PK carried much traffic between YYZ and their other destinations in Asia with a connection in Pakistan.

The only destination that PIA from YYZ via PAK carries a little bit of 6th freedom transit traffic is bound to Kabul, Afghanistan via Islamabad. Such an option though is only avbl once a week to/from YYZ.

Quoting Colts001 (Reply 6):

LH is well established in India and connects more cities with service to BOM, DEL, MAA, CCU, BLR, HYD & PNQ covering all the major cities. AF has service only to BOM, DEL & BLR. LH also has better name recognition compared to AF.

Indeed...the LH brand name commands better recognition and yield in India than AF.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):

Everyone I know who pays a premium ticket to India would much rather fly 9W vs. AI. That said, if they haven't gained 'mindshare' in YYZ, it will hurt them. You cite low yeild fares for 9W, so perhaps YYZ isn't a sustainable route.

Premium yes, 9W is more popular as it is with NRI students based in YYZ / NYC + middle aged Indians in their 30s-40s. But AI's attractiveness is for old people, families and those not fluent in English flying together to destinations such as AMD and ATQ direct from USA/YYZ.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 5):

Why does it seem like AF is unable to maintain any yeild to India? Star Alliance partners seem to be having an easier time maintaining better yeild. Is there a particular reason I am unaware of?

Corporate agencies in India too promote LH more so than AF. If you have access to PAXIS or MIDT, you will notice the greater number of J/F class pax flying LH versus AF. Plus Star Alliance is huge in India compared to Sky Team !!!

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4441 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

Employees of 9W, AF, KL, NW, EY, QR, AI have responded back to this report of mine which was emailed to them and everyone agreed with its contents 100%.

9W's Rev Mgmt Dept personnel too acknowledged it and wrote back "the stuff you have mentioned is unarguable and the threat is very real".

Two 9W pilots too responded back agreeing fully with what I wrote and they all said that they " 9W is getting a bit complacent and conceited about its position in the market both in India as well as outside. Its time they wake up and see that their product is nothing exceptional and that there are others that offer the same product if not better".

Have yet to receive a response from anyone in EK though lol

User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3078 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6031 times:



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 9):

9W's Rev Mgmt Dept personnel too acknowledged it and wrote back "the stuff you have mentioned is unarguable and the threat is very real".

First step of recognizing a problem seems to be taken care of. The 2nd step of actually working to fix it - any ideas on what 9W is thinking?


Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineYXXMIKE From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5981 times:



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 9):

Awesome Post Behramjee!

I think what would make the most sense (if it was possible) for 9W would be to skip YYZ altogether and begin a YVR - BRU - DEL/BOM

This large South Asian market would hugely benefit from a one stop service to India and onwards. This type of trip would allow YVR to offer a direct service to Europe as well as easy service onwards to India which I believe would be full of good margin. Sometimes the easy way to compete with a client is to not compete with them and carve your own niche. Being creative and going the different road for 9W could be risky but with the correct marketing marketing and local support it could easily be a strong market for them.

I will however say that I do understand that a 9W out of YVR would likely take another decade before it could be possible because of the historic ramifications.

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4441 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5498 times:



Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 11):
Awesome Post Behramjee!

Thank you  Smile

Quoting Nimish (Reply 10):

First step of recognizing a problem seems to be taken care of. The 2nd step of actually working to fix it - any ideas on what 9W is thinking?

yeah they further reduced their peak season summer fares to BOM/DEL from YYZ to CAD$ 850 + taxes thus further diluting their yields.

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 11):


I think what would make the most sense (if it was possible) for 9W would be to skip YYZ altogether and begin a YVR - BRU - DEL/BOM. This large South Asian market would hugely benefit from a one stop service to India and onwards. This type of trip would allow YVR to offer a direct service to Europe as well as easy service onwards to India which I believe would be full of good margin. Sometimes the easy way to compete with a client is to not compete with them and carve your own niche. Being creative and going the different road for 9W could be risky but with the correct marketing marketing and local support it could easily be a strong market for them.

No Indian carrier can make a profit flying into YVR. The yields are too low and the operational costs of flying and marketing the route are way too high. However, I do know for a fact that Air India in March did do a feasibility study of seeing whether it would be ok to launch YVR via FRA three times a week once the FRA hub is fully functional. It would be maximum a 3 weekly service ATQ-FRA-YYZ using an old B 772ER. The result of this was that nothing is going to materialize until Summer 2010 at least due to economic recession but seeing SQ pull out of ATQ and YVR sure has opened AI's management eyes at YVR's risk and attractiveness at the same time.

9W I dont think so would ever fly to YVR...its just not worth it to them financially.

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5433 times:

Behramjee, I don't know Canada well and I don't know India at all. But I think there will be lots of tussles like this, all over the world, for years to come. This is probably only Round One in a fifteen-round contest.

One thing I DO know about is 'downturns:' And the pattern is always 'field dressing first, operation later.' I don't blame EK for trying to snaffle some extra business; but, to me, the fact that they're having to look as far as Toronto to find a few quick bucks rather tells its own tale.....

If past experience is any guide, a lot of people at the moment will be looking for 'quick fixes.' But there's always a 'double hit' in downturns; at first people think it's just a matter of 'sell harder,' it's only later that the message sinks in that virtually all businesses are going to have radically to change their business practices, because the market itself has changed.

To me, the 'double hit' as far as airlines are concerned is that, in recent years, they have been able to sell a much higher proportion of Business Class tickets. There are few clearer examples of the 'benefits' of the 'banking boom' - which has now 'fizzled' for good and all.

ALL airlines are going to have to face the fact that they will not, for the foreseeable future, be able to rely on business travel at 'gold-plated' prices - they're going to have to fall back on the old and tried strategy of attracting the 'cattle-class' passengers (like me, among others).

And, at the end of the day, it will always be easier to fill a medium-sized aeroplane than a jumbo. EK's 'success' in the case of Toronto may keep them going for a month or two - but, unless the sheikhs have bottomless pockets (unlikely now that oil prices are so much more sensible) they'll soon have to 'surrender' more ground........


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineJr From United States of America, joined May 1999, 958 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5328 times:



Quoting Colts001 (Reply 6):
LH is well established in India and connects more cities with service to BOM, DEL, MAA, CCU, BLR, HYD & PNQ covering all the major cities. AF has service only to BOM, DEL & BLR. LH also has better name recognition compared to AF.

I think it has a lot to do with CDG. People who fly often and on premium fares get sick and tired of the CDG transit experience, and switch very quickly to other carriers. I know at least a half a dozen people who fly to the US from India regularly for work that avoid AF exclusively because of AF's poor CDG experience. AF should perhaps try to use the KLM/AMS brand to expand into India where the AF brand has faltered. Why did HYD fail for KL? I flew that route some months back, and the flight was oversold.


I've flown on 9V-SPK.
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

I think things will get really interesting if and when Canadian and UAE governments allow more direct flights between countries...

UAE carriers are only allowed 6 direct flights a week to Canada, and hence why Emirates operates 3x weekly and Etihad 3x Weekly all to YYZ...

If Emirates were allowed to operate more frequently to Toronto, I would doubt we would see the A380 on the route, and probably more like a 777-300.

With the number of passengers flying between Canada and India (via Europe or the Middle East), I am surprised AC has not tried services to the likes of DEL or BOM. Toronto and Vancouver are some of the most diversified cities in the world!

[Edited 2009-05-09 09:15:07]

User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2786 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5236 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
hence why Emirates operates 4x weekly

EK operates 3 weekly to YYZ. UAE carriers as of now have 6 weekly flights to YYZ.


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1569 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5198 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
With the number of passengers flying between Canada and India (via Europe or the Middle East), I am surprised AC has not tried services to the likes of DEL or BOM. Toronto and Vancouver are some of the most diversified cities in the world!

AC has a 'tendancy' of not serving potentially profitable markets (restictions imposed by the Canadian government don't help). AC could make YUL-BEY work, but they stopped trying. AC complains about EK/EY, but I don't see them reciprocating a service. Those are two examples that have been well-debated, but bottom line, AC has HUGE gaps in its network.

User currently offlineOjas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2786 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5186 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
With the number of passengers flying between Canada and India (via Europe or the Middle East), I am surprised AC has not tried services to the likes of DEL or BOM. Toronto and Vancouver are some of the most diversified cities in the world!

AC was serving DEL until recently with their own metal. They had YYZ - DEL on the A343 and subsequently upgraded it to the A345. They then had to restructure their services via ZRH on a B767.

The reason quoted on A.net was that it was a poor yielding route.


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

There is increasing traffic to India. The eventual benefit of TK and AI will be Star Alliance membership, in that flights from other Canadian centres will be easier to book through YYZ. In other words fly AC to YYZ and change to either carrier on a through ticket.

Such a large percentage of family traffic to India is price sensitive, so if EK decides to flood the market with cheap seats they will gain a lot of traffic. I see the higher end traffic continuing to favour 9W and EY as they have the best rated First Class service. However, I can't see that as a huge volume and the addition of the competition of that many seats on EK might be significant.

If other carriers start to notice a big effect from EK pricing them out of the market, then my prediction will be that any changes to the bilateral will be even longer coming. Particularly if AC has plans to once again re-initiate service when the 787's arrive. One of the factors that the Canadian government looks closely at is carriers coming in solely to attract connecting passengers rather than direct services. Despite EK making a lot of noise about direct Dubai/Canada business and tourism, the government looks at it differently.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5003 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 19):
The eventual benefit of TK and AI will be Star Alliance membership



Quoting Ojas (Reply 18):
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
With the number of passengers flying between Canada and India (via Europe or the Middle East), I am surprised AC has not tried services to the likes of DEL or BOM. Toronto and Vancouver are some of the most diversified cities in the world!


AC was serving DEL until recently with their own metal. They had YYZ - DEL on the A343 and subsequently upgraded it to the A345. They then had to restructure their services via ZRH on a B767.

AC also served BOM for a few years in the 1980s, as part of a YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN route. They used both 747s and L1011-500s on that route at various times. That was their first service to India. AC has now started and stopped India service 3 times, and they had announced seasonal YVR-DEL nonstop service to begin in October 2001, but those plans were dropped after 9/11.

Quoting Directorguy (Reply 17):
AC has HUGE gaps in its network.

For a country with only 1/10 the U.S. population, AC has quite an extensive network. It would make no sense for AC to operate to DXB as there isn't enough O&D traffic to/from Canada. EK depends largely on connecting traffic via their huge DXB hub. It's exactly the same reason why AC doesn't serve AMS while KL serves 4 cities in Canada.

User currently offlineFlyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4930 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4814 times:



Quoting Directorguy (Reply 17):
AC has a 'tendancy' of not serving potentially profitable markets (restictions imposed by the Canadian government don't help). AC could make YUL-BEY work, but they stopped trying. AC complains about EK/EY, but I don't see them reciprocating a service. Those are two examples that have been well-debated, but bottom line, AC has HUGE gaps in its network.

Where are these gaps? YUL-BEY is out of AC's hands for reasons beyond their control.

Dont you think that if the potential for profit really existed, that AC would be serving DXB/DEL/BOM.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4562 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
If Emirates were allowed to operate more frequently to Toronto, I would doubt we would see the A380 on the route, and probably more like a 777-300.

Exactly. Even just one additional (4th) weekly frequency to YYZ would likely be enough to remove the 380 from YYZ.

I see the 380 having little impact on Air-India, Jet AW or Etihad into YYZ. It's only a 3-weekly sked. Given the myriad of ways to travel the Mideast and the Indian subcontinent from YYZ, the 3-weekly 380 schedule does little to change the market. It's all just 380 hype. That's all.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
It would make no sense for AC to operate to DXB as there isn't enough O&D traffic to/from Canada.

The value of DXB is as a hub, not a destination. Even EI flies (or flew) to DXB.

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 21):
Dont you think that if the potential for profit really existed, that AC would be serving DXB/DEL/BOM.

No. Bad question/analogy. AC is close to bankruptcy again and most of its routes lose money on a fully burdened basis, and likely on a variable basis. "Potential for profit" is a never-ending game that AC plays but never achieves. AC should never be used in any discussion of route profit potential -- hypothetical discussions mean nothing.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4522 times:



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
It would make no sense for AC to operate to DXB as there isn't enough O&D traffic to/from Canada.

The value of DXB is as a hub, not a destination. Even EI flies (or flew) to DXB.

That was my point. DXB is an EK hub. EK certainly isn't going to help AC establish themselves on YYZ-DXB by giving them preferential interline and prorate deals to feed EK destinations beyond DXB when EK can carry the traffic all the way themselves.

EI's DUB-DXB route only lasted 2 years before they gave up early last year. Relevant news item:
http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-favour-of-us-flights-1214940.html

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