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KLM Going For The 747-8F Or A380F?  
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9655 times:

Since the 747 combi's will be phases out and replaced by 777 and A330's I was under the impression that KLM will only go for dedicated freighters like the 747F's they already have. If they lose the combi capacity might they go for a larger freighter like the A380 or 747-8F?

KL911

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1715 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9617 times:

AFAIK, there hasn't been any decision about replacement of KL's 744 combi's. Initial A330 and 777 deliveries were to replace KL's 742/743's and 767's. The ones still on order are for expansion (there's one 77W for KL on the flightline at PAE right now).

Either 787 or A350 will replace KL's 747 and M11 fleets, both types have quite a lot of belly freight capacity, and their 77W's can haul quite a bit of freight as well. Any dedicated freighters will be either converted 747 combis, or a couple of new 77F's. A380F's have never been considered, and 748F seems highly unlikely, with AF having decided for the 77F as their dedicated freighter.



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User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9818 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9545 times:

Is Airbus still offering the A380F. I thought they had ceded the market to the 747-8F, which is designed more towards being a freighter platform.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9538 times:

Airbus isn't offering the A380F right now, i guess that could change at some point. But right now KL has to choose between the 777F, 748F, or an older 747F. Since air France is going to use the 777F maybe KL will do the same

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9524 times:

Very likely it will be the 777F, KLM will phase out the 747 soon and given the already large 777-200ER and 77W fleet, the 777F would make perfectly sense.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3393 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9434 times:

KLM has four very young B747-400ERFs, and apparantly two of them are going to the dessert pretty soon as they are not needed due to the crappy economy.


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9351 times:



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 5):
KLM has four very young B747-400ERFs, and apparantly two of them are going to the dessert pretty soon as they are not needed due to the crappy economy.

Yes, but now the combi's are still flying. Further, with the aquisition of MP, KL can optimise freight capacity.

The OP meant when the combi's are retired. A lot of freight capacity will be lost then. For sure all 4 744F's will be needed again, plus some other dedicated freighters. Those will IMHO be either the 777F or the a332F. But the combi's are here to stay for at least 5 more years, seeing as KL is going to add PTV's to the 744 fleet this summer.



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User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9349 times:

Wow, KLM can't even fill 4 747-400ERFs? Is it really a bad economy, or just bad management? I find it hard to believe they can't find uses for hauling cargo around the world for only 4 airplanes

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31420 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9265 times:
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Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
If they lose the combi capacity might they go for a larger freighter like the A380 or 747-8F?

I believe they will instead go for the 777F. As Columba notes, they already operate the passenger models and AF Cargo uses the 777F.

So what we will likely see if a single 744M replaced with a 77F for the cargo and either a 787 or A350XWB for the passengers.


User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9265 times:

I was under the impression that KLM did quite well with the 747Combi. If the operating costs of the 748 are even better....why not push the 748 combi version. I believe I made a thread about this some months back and it was not a popular opinion. The consensus was it can't be done. I disagree.


757: The last of the best
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31420 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9257 times:
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Quoting Manfredj (Reply 9):
I was under the impression that KLM did quite well with the 747Combi. If the operating costs of the 748 are even better....why not push the 748 combi version. I believe I made a thread about this some months back and it was not a popular opinion. The consensus was it can't be done. I disagree.

I asked and somebody replied KL's 744Ms have effectively a fixed bulkhead between their passenger cabin and cargo - in other words, it doesn't change on a per-flight basis.

Therefore, I agree that nothing should be stopping a 748M since the mandatory fixed bulkhead would not be an issue, at least for KL.

I suppose it comes down to total demand for the type. If enough airlines want it, Boeing would likely offer it.


User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9130 times:

G'day

With Air France calling the shots in Groupe AirFrance - KLM, I doubt the 748M or 748F is even being considered. With relatively few freighters required by the group it does not make much sense to buy two completely different aircraft with broadly similar capabilities.

With the 748 program not exactly being an overwhelming success Boeing will definitely not venture into developing another subtype such as a combi version of which they may be able to sell 4 or 6 maybe.

So if KLM indeed is going to buy freighters it will be the 777F.  Wink


Cheeers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2589 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8904 times:



Quoting 413x3 (Reply 7):
Wow, KLM can't even fill 4 747-400ERFs? Is it really a bad economy, or just bad management? I find it hard to believe they can't find uses for hauling cargo around the world for only 4 airplanes

Well, don't forget that they also fly 18 744 Combi's. Each has 7 or 9 pallet positions [not container, but full pallets]. A 744F takes around 22; roughly 3 744 Combis have the same capacity as a 744F, so KLM Combi capacity equates to around 5 - 6 744F.

In addition, MP is becoming part of the KLAF group, operates/d 4 744BCF [two parked now?], and 6 M11F.

18x 744 Combi
4x 744ERF
4x 744BCF [MP]
6x M11F [MP]

Pretty decent cargo capacity for our small country I would say . . .

Regards,
PW100



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User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4277 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8876 times:



Quoting PW100 (Reply 12):
A 744F takes around 22;

28 or 29 maindeck pallets, 5 lowerdeck pallets 96'' in forward lower hold, 4 pallets in aft lower hold (2x 88'' and 2x 96'') + 4 LD3 usually.
Of course, company regulations or configurations might differ slightly, but above details are fitting in a B744F.



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User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8829 times:



Quoting PW100 (Reply 12):
so KLM Combi capacity equates to around 5 - 6 744F.

That's what I meant with my post.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12595 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8829 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
Very likely it will be the 777F, KLM will phase out the 747 soon and given the already large 777-200ER and 77W fleet, the 777F would make perfectly sense.

My view too; if they go get anything, it will be 77Fs, but it will be a long time coming; for the moment, they'll just stick with what they have; the 772Fs don't come cheap and with the market as it is right now, it's just not an investment that can be justified. Indeed, I understand that at least one of AF's 772Fs is going to be parked. (F-GUOA).


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8807 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
Indeed, I understand that at least one of AF's 772Fs is going to be parked. (F-GUOA

They just sold four and leased only 2 back, and they weren't happy with the first 777F delivered.
See the other treat in this forum...


User currently offline413x3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8793 times:



Quoting PW100 (Reply 12):
Pretty decent cargo capacity for our small country I would say . . .

I think Cargolux is the most impressive though. Anyone know how well they are doing in this economy?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31420 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8793 times:
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Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):
(AF) just sold four and leased only 2 back, and they weren't happy with the first 777F delivered.

If they aren't happy with them, why did they bother to lease two back then after successfully selling them to somebody else?  confused 


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8770 times:

The thing to remember about a 747Combi is that it's really a mid-sized aircraft+mid-sized freighter in terms of capacity, so talk of replacing a combi with a 748F or A380F is probably not practical. 777F is still large. A330F might be possible, or even 763F...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
I believe they will instead go for the 777F. As Columba notes, they already operate the passenger models and AF Cargo uses the 777F.

Maybe we'll read of KL leasing the two 777Fs AF just sold to the lease company that they didn't lease back themselves?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8748 times:



Quoting 413x3 (Reply 7):
Wow, KLM can't even fill 4 747-400ERFs? Is it really a bad economy, or just bad management? I find it hard to believe they can't find uses for hauling cargo around the world for only 4 airplanes

There is a huge amount of competition and many of the other all-cargo operators have lower costs so can probably offer lower rates than KL. And there is huge over-capacity now due to the terrible worldwide cargo market, with traffic down 25% and sometimes much more in many markets. LH has parked at least 4 of their MD-11s I believe. NW's cargo traffic on their all-cargo 742s was down over 40% in the first quarter. They're completely closing the all-cargo operation soon which has been unprofitable for quite a while.


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8741 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
The thing to remember about a 747Combi is that it's really a mid-sized aircraft+mid-sized freighter in terms of capacity, so talk of replacing a combi with a 748F or A380F is probably not practical

True, but the combi flies just to one destination and back, where as the dedicated freighters have more destinations combined..


User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8693 times:

I seem to remember a thread about how combi's aren't going to be made in the future because new safety regulations make them too heavy to be economical.

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8576 times:

Thats really a very premature question. With the same right you could ask what KLM is replacing their 772s with.

KLM surely has more pressing things on the agenda than contemplating what will be the next freighter type. With its quite new 744Fs, why should they even think about replacements before 2015? Their freighters could serve well for more than 15 years from now, like the 777s they got so far. By the time they need to replace them who knows what the hottest freighter is?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8575 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 21):
True, but the combi flies just to one destination and back, where as the dedicated freighters have more destinations combined..

Yes, that is true.

So the ideal replacement is another combi. Which don't exist and never will again.

So then it becomes how to replace the capacity, and you don't replace it with 747 or A380 freighter or pax models because the routes these combis are on can't support that traffic...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 KL911 : By combining Combi routes like IAH and MEX for example they could use full 747 freighters. AMS-MEX-IAH-AMS I was talking about the cargo replacement
26 Post contains images EcuadorianMD11 : Well, whatever way they´re gonna go, I sure hope not to lose the beautiful blue 747´s. It is by far the most spectacular looking plane around. Take
27 JensOBreuer : What about the A330F - KLM has a fleet of A330 and the machine is not that large - so it might be the best replacement for the cargo capacity of a Com
28 PW100 : Thanks for the correct details! Absolutely. Not disagreeing, but another thing to remember in KLM operation is that all these Combi's fly to their de
29 Petera380 : Didn't I read somewhere that AF rejected the B777F prototype and returned the others leasing only one back? I'msure I read that somewhere! Peter
30 Stitch : You've likely read it in this forum, since that is what one person is claiming here. But that might just be a case of either semantics or "English as
31 Kl911 : No, AF rejected the prototype. Like in not taking it......
32 Stitch : Interesting Boeing has not shown it as a cancellation then. In fact, they still show all five as still being on order...
33 Zeke : Another option is not to have any at all, and build up the AF freighter numbers. Yes, but you cannot get one until mid next decade. What sort of dess
34 Frigatebird : From the AF 777F thread: Apparently then, AF is reducing its cargo fleet for the moment. What I can see happening, is KL's dedicated freighter fleet
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