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Did Airbus Bribe The Canadian Prime Minister?  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9168 times:

I've seen a lot of shady things in the fifty years or so I spent in business. But, honestly, never anything at ALL on this potential scale:-

"As Greg McArthur reports in today's Globe and Mail, the Oliphant Commission heard yesterday that commissions on the sale of Airbus planes were the most likely source of the cash payments received by former prime minister Brian Mulroney from Karlheinz Schreiber.

"Prior to this shocking evidence being heard, the chief commission counsel took the extraordinary step of addressing the commissioner-as reported by The Canadian Press:

"There is no evidence, nor do we assert, nor will we assert, that Mr.
Mulroney knew of the source of the funds," said Wolson.

... Wolson told Oliphant the bottom line is that there's no evidence the money Mulroney accepted from Schreiber was for anything other than the Bear Head project.

The background to yesterday's surprising revelation is an earlier article by Mr. McArthur, which reported that:

Fred Doucet, Brian Mulroney's former chief of staff, received a list from Air Canada detailing how many Airbus aircraft had been delivered to the airline in the early 1990s, contradicting Mr. Doucet's sworn testimony [before the House of Commons Ethics Committee] that he has "no knowledge at all about anything involving Airbus.".

"... The date stamp indicates the former prime ministerial aide received the fax on Aug. 27, 1993, at 3:50 p.m.

"At that time, Karlheinz Schreiber was sitting in the back of a limousine on his way to Quebec's Mirabel airport to meet Mr. Mulroney and pay him at least $75,000 in cash - a meeting that Mr. Doucet has previously acknowledged he arranged."


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090506/national/mulroney_schreiber

"Ladies and gentlemen, please ensure that your seatbelts are securely fastened." I reckon that this could become a very big story. We all know that both politicians and businesses are occasionally crooked. But THIS, if true - a world-wide company bribing people at the very top of the political tree - is on a far larger scale than the odd 'mid-level' bribery case we're all accustomed to........


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4865 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9120 times:

This saga has been going on for ages over here. Lots of he said she said ultimately Mulrooney won't spend a minute in jail.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3739 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9112 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
We all know that both politicians and businesses are occasionally crooked.

Occasionally? I want to live in the world you live in....  Big grin

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
world-wide company bribing people at the very top of the political tree

Yes, you're right, this never happens. Anywhere.


Bribery cases leave me a bit unmoved nowadays. They just keep on being the same, no matter the company, industry, politicians, country, etc... I guess it's just how business is done, unfortunately.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8979 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
But THIS, if true - a world-wide company bribing people at the very top of the political tree - is on a far larger scale than the odd 'mid-level' bribery case we're all accustomed to........

Oh! was the Boeing case only one of "the odd mid-level" one's then?


User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8891 times:

Airbus: Prime Minister
Boeing: Pentagon Purchaser


Had Boeing bribed President Bush directly to get the tanker deal done, that would be equivilent.

But both companies have played the game. The only difference is that Airbus got their planes placed, whereas Boeing got caught.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8823 times:



Quoting Starrion (Reply 4):
But both companies have played the game. The only difference is that Airbus got their planes placed, whereas Boeing got caught.

Who in Airbus lost their job?


User currently offlineCXH From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8467 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
"Ladies and gentlemen, please ensure that your seatbelts are securely fastened." I reckon that this could become a very big story. We all know that both politicians and businesses are occasionally crooked. But THIS, if true - a world-wide company bribing people at the very top of the political tree - is on a far larger scale than the odd 'mid-level' bribery case we're all accustomed to........

*yawn*....

As YOWza already said, this has been going on for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_affair

Indeed, for non-Canadians it may be new but this story first broke in 1994 in Canada. There have been several Inquires, Reviews, etc by different government and police bodies. I actually follow the story but most Canadians couldn't care less anymore. Former PM Mulroney has had a lot of mud thrown at him over the years and quite a bit has stuck.

In Canada, it was called the "Airbus Affair" but neither Airbus nor Air Canada suffered any significant bad P.R. because of it. Mulroney and Karlheinz Schreiber got smeared because of it.

BTW: AC ordered the A320 in 1988 and deliveres started in December 1989. It was still a crown corporation at the time. It was fully privatized in 1993.



I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8408 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):

This story has been playing out for years. In fact, I lost interest in following it when I realized it seemed no one cared and Airbus was going to walk away without any negative affects whatsoever or any sanctions.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 2):
Occasionally? I want to live in the world you live in.... Big grin

That was too funny! I howled with laughter...thanks for the mid-afternoon (here) humor!

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 2):
Bribery cases leave me a bit unmoved nowadays.

So true. I think the more news worthy event would be the company that doesn't use bribery or any other undue influence to get a leg up on the competition, and wins based on product and service alone.

Quoting Starrion (Reply 4):
But both companies have played the game. The only difference is that Airbus got their planes placed, whereas Boeing got caught.

Makes you wonder who the new kid on the block is, huh?



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3139 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8293 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 5):

Who in Airbus lost their job?

Those culpable at the highest echelons, left conveniently for other reasons. And they didn't jump, they were pushed.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2228 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

This isn't new news at all. This is a delaying tactic by Schreiber to avoid extradition to Germany on serious tax evasion and other charges. He keeps tantilizing that the smoking gun is coming and none ever shows up.

Was Mulroney unwise to accept commissions from a guy like Schreiber for loosey goosey Armoured Vehicle lobbying? In hindsight looks pretty dumb.

Does something smell funny in the whole thing? For sure.

The previous Liberal government wouldn't have coughed up the compensation money if there was evidence Mulroney took commissions from Airbus for the A320 order.

Schreiber appears to have played all sides against the middle and did use commission money from Airbus to pay Mulroney. Except there is no proof that Mulroney did anything but agree to get military orders for the armoured carriers.

Canadians have mostly tuned out of this whole thing and the costs of the inquiry would be better spent elsewhere.


User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7841 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 3):
Oh! was the Boeing case only one of "the odd mid-level" one's then?

Errr, um. I believe this thread is about Airbus, not Boeing. So keep it on topic. Some people just can't help themselves.

Yes, eventually people will lose their jobs or be in jail over this. There is enough evidence through time/date stamps and people willing to bury the other in order to avoid further destruction. We've seen it over and over in these corruption cases.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24906 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7502 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
This saga has been going on for ages over here. Lots of he said she said ultimately Mulrooney won't spend a minute in jail.



Quoting CXH (Reply 6):
Indeed, for non-Canadians it may be new but this story first broke in 1994 in Canada. There have been several Inquires, Reviews, etc by different government and police bodies. I actually follow the story but most Canadians couldn't care less anymore.

Yes, Canadians are sick of reading about this story which has been in the news for years.

Lockheed was also implicated in numerous bribery scandals in the 1970s (and earlier), including charges of bribing the Prime Minister of Japan to influence NH's decision to order the L1011 (they were a large L1011 operator with about 20 in their fleet at one time). After the prime minister had left office he was indicted on somewhat lesser charges and finally sentenced to 4 years in prison but he died before he served any time. This 1976 Time magazine article covers the NH case as it stood then.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,914484,00.html

Numerous other Lockheed bribery cases involved military aircraft purchases by half a dozen countries, including an alleged payment of around $1 million to a member of the Dutch royal family related to their subsequent purchase of F-104 Starfighters rather than the Dassault Mirage.

[Edited 2009-05-07 18:42:27]

[Edited 2009-05-07 19:01:55]

User currently onlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5735 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7418 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 5):
Who in Airbus lost their job?

He got a promotion to CEO!  Big grin  cheeky   cheerful   duck   laughing 



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6595 times:

I will probably get flamed or even warned or have the post taken down, but this does not surprise me a bit. And I do not think this is an isolated incident either. I just hope that the matter is properly investigated and that serious sanctions are imposed. I wonder how much cash was spread around on the KC-45 deal.

User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6433 times:

Airbus is bullet-proof.

As for Canada, if it was my country I'd be especially embarrassed about the amount.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8544 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
I've seen a lot of shady things in the fifty years or so I spent in business. But, honestly, never anything at ALL on this potential scale:-

what about the scandal in the early 70s where Lockheed (allegedly ) bribed the husband of the Queen of the Netherlands to try to get an order placed for the Dutch Air Force ?

In fact , when I tried to google search the above I actually found an entire wikipedia page ( yes , I know that being in wikipedia does not mean something is factual ) on "Lockheed bribery scandals"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals

these involved Lockheed allegedly bribing high ranking people in Germany , the Netherlands , Japan , Saudi Arabia and Italy in a number of deals over a period of years



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently onlineQFFlyer From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5818 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 3):
Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
But THIS, if true - a world-wide company bribing people at the very top of the political tree - is on a far larger scale than the odd 'mid-level' bribery case we're all accustomed to........

Oh! was the Boeing case only one of "the odd mid-level" one's then

Hmmmm
Interesting on another thread you say

Quote:
As I've said repeatedly before, there seemingly cannot be a thread about one manufacturer/aircraft that the same people have to introduce the other into it.....simply to deflect/excuse and as nothing more than plug

Yet here this is exactly what you are doing...  sarcastic 


User currently offlineFlyhigh@tom From India, joined Sep 2001, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

 yawn   yawn   yawn   zzz  Can we get along with something else please....this is as old as it gets!

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

Schreiber was a very mystery figure behind too many scenes, very active in Bavarian politics as example. What we know for sure is that nothing he ever said was right. Most that was said about him turned out to be as wrong, but he has bribed a German secretary ofstate (Pfahl)

Schreiber is in custody in Kanada since 10 years and fighting with all means against being sent to Germany. This story is so bizarre that it can well be just a part of his defense against being sent to Germany - if Kanada gets interest into him they don't deliver him...

Not claiming that ever an airliner was sold without bribes.


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Nav20 good to have you back. I have missed you.

I thought that the only way Airbus could sell planes is by bribing it's customers  

[Edited 2009-05-08 02:18:37]

User currently offlineBeeweel15 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4778 times:



Quoting Flyhigh@tom (Reply 17):
Can we get along with something else please....this is as old as it gets!

I agree this is lame the US government is the biggest bribers in the world and 99% of the time they dont get caught. Come on children grow up.


User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1006 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4691 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
But THIS, if true - a world-wide company bribing people at the very top of the political tree - is on a far larger scale than the odd 'mid-level' bribery case we're all accustomed to........

One word: OIL.....

Cheers
micha


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4527 times:



Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 21):
One word: OIL.....

Cheers
micha

Could be!

http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=72822
KBR Pleads Guilty in Bonny Island Bribes Case

http://www.nkrusa.org/news/daily_news.php?id=412
Investment promoter Viktor Kozeny, Frederic Bourke Jr. and AIG executive David Pinkerton were charged in a 27-count indictment in U.S. District Court in Manhattan. The defendants each were charged with violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a crime to offer payment to foreign government officials to obtain or retain business.

http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2009/0.../uk-arrest-in-nigerian-bribe-case/
A federal grand jury in Texas charged Jeffrey Tesler, 60, with helping channel money from Kellogg, Brown and Root, a former Halliburton subsidiary.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/swiss.html

SWISS INVESTIGATION INTO BUSH/CHENEY INVOLVEMENT IN OIL COMPANY BRIBES TO KAZAKHSTAN


And most of these are into the hundreds of millions - hundreds more to visit if we need more detail on is on a far larger scale than the odd 'mid-level' bribery case we're all accustomed to

Pip Pip as a columnist in the Fin Rev used to sign off on his columns.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4865 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4073 times:



Quoting 707lvr (Reply 14):
As for Canada, if it was my country I'd be especially embarrassed about the amount.

Care to elaborate?

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4030 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 23):
Quoting 707lvr (Reply 14):
As for Canada, if it was my country I'd be especially embarrassed about the amount.

Care to elaborate?

?300K. If you look through the oil bribery scandals I listed, they were in the hundreds of millions brackets, so I guess he is worried that if he was bought it too so little - at a wild guess.  wink 

And a bit closer to aviation, the freight anti trust suits imply that hundreds of millions were involved in each of a quite large number of airlines - to judge from the fines. Different kind of naughtiness, but close enough for colliery work as they used to say in Northumberland.


25 Ruscoe : There are lots of other ways people could be induced, to lean one way or the other, apart from money, in the process of settling a contract to buy air
26 YOWza : Call me green but to me bribery is a matter of principle not price. $1 or $1M is not the issue. It's the willingeness to be bought. YOWza
27 Baroque : Perish that thought. What you write is true. There is a story about the matter of principle which I will not repeat here. However I think the comment
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