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WN: Why No MHT - ISP  
User currently offlineAcquittal From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 13 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Why is this not a bookable flight? Seems to me that there is some market for this or is LGA and EWR sufficient ( via US and CO respectively )?

Why no competition from WN on this. Arent these two reasonably sized markets and isn't this a possible route for them?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2546 times:
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ISP is a relatively limited demand market. Other than Florida (which accounts for a huge chunk of the WN flights in ISP) the only other cities with any type of demand are MDW, BWI, and to some extent LAS. Even places like DTW and PIT have <50 passengers a day (BOS shows 25). WN generally won't offer a connection if it's quite a bit out of the way, as is the case with connecting in BWI and MDW to get to MHT.


Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineCanyonBlue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

What about ISP-BUF? You could even make it an ISP-BUF-MDW direct if you wanted to. Buffalo is home to one of the largest NY state universities (25,000+ students) which draws thousands of students from Long Island. Plus you would get some Niagara Falls and Toronto pax.

User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2507 times:
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<30 daily passengers each way on ISP-BUF, although I'm sure it could be stimulated somewhat. WN is a market leader with 77% of the passengers. But, WN obviously has much better fish to fry than piddling around with even a direct flight.


Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineCanyonBlue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

I think less than 30 pax per day ISP-BUF dramatically understates the likely stimulus putting a flight on this route would create. I'm sure there are many pax currently using LGA or JFK to BUF that would prefer an ISP-BUF route, but only way to prove it would be to launch the service. Having lived on Long Island and having gone to school in BUF, I can tell you myself and many fellow students used LGA, JFK and even EWR if cheap enough to get to BUF.

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2494 times:



Quoting Iowaman (Reply 1):
ISP is a relatively limited demand market.

 checkmark  Didn't WN give ISP-PVD a shot for a while, though?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2486 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
  Didn't WN give ISP-PVD a shot for a while, though?

PVD-ISP was generating 400 O&D pax at its peak, which in my opinion is pretty impressive, but the extreme shortness of the flight killed the economics.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2475 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 6):
but the extreme shortness of the flight killed the economics.

Makes sense. I wonder if MHT-ISP would really be any better. It's longer, but still less than 200 miles (though OTOH it's only 10 miles shorter than TPA-JAX-- I think that carries a decent bunch of connections, though, and MHT-ISP likely wouldn't).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2475 times:
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Quoting CanyonBlue17 (Reply 4):
I think less than 30 pax per day ISP-BUF dramatically understates the likely stimulus putting a flight on this route would create

I agree, but again WN has bigger fish to fry for the time being.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 6):
PVD-ISP was generating 400 O&D pax at its peak, which in my opinion is pretty impressive, but the extreme shortness of the flight killed the economics.

That is impressive IMO.



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3783 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2418 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
Didn't WN give ISP-PVD a shot for a while, though?

I don't have the exact dates of that service, but you can sure get a a good idea by looking at the O&D statistics back then.

ISP-PVD - 108 miles

Q3 1999 - < 10 pax/day
Q4 1999 - < 10 pax/day
Q1 2000 - < 10 pax/day
Q2 2000 - < 10 pax/day
Q3 2000 - 195 pax/day
Q4 2000 - 305 pax/day
Q1 2001 - 213 pax/day
Q2 2001 - 283 pax/day
Q3 2001 - 348 pax/day
Q4 2001 - 227 pax/day
Q1 2002 - 223 pax/day
Q2 2002 - 271 pax/day
Q3 2002 - 285 pax/day
Q4 2002 - 263 pax/day
Q1 2003 - 18 pax/day

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
I wonder if MHT-ISP would really be any better. It's longer, but still less than 200 miles

What about BOS-ISP? It's 153 miles, plus there are more people on the BOS end of a BOS-ISP route than there were on the PVD end of the PVD-ISP route.

Currently (Q3 2008) , there are only 22.5 travelers per day on the route, but US has 100% of the market and their average fares are $1.60 per mile.

This reminds me of other US dominated routes that WN has started in the past.

ALB-BWI went from 99 daily passengers in Q3 1999 to 783 daily passengers in Q3 2000.
BUF-BWI went from 106 daily passengers in Q2 2000 to 728 daily passengers in Q2 2001.
ISP-BWI went from 26 daily passengers in Q4 1998 to 529 daily passengers in Q4 1999.

It seems like it would save a lot of time for people that currently drive between the two.

Plus you could link them with existing ISP-Florida flights and offer one-stop direct service from BOS.

Of course, none of this should be done before they start BOS-PHL.  Smile

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineCanyonBlue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2398 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 9):
What about BOS-ISP?

I remember flying this route when about 20 years ago on a purple and yellow Precision Air Dornier 228. What a quick and fun flight. I was heading up to Hanscom AFB for an airshow.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22308 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2262 times:



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 9):
Plus you could link them with existing ISP-Florida flights and offer one-stop direct service from BOS.

...which makes it more attractive than MHT-ISP since MHT already has WN service to three of the four ISP-Florida cities.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Years ago, Eastern ran a daily flight that went PVD-ISP-ATL and return. As I recall, those flights did fairly well with the Long Island commuters. It was operated w/727-200 eqiuipment.

User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2228 times:



Quoting CanyonBlue17 (Reply 4):
I think less than 30 pax per day ISP-BUF dramatically understates the likely stimulus putting a flight on this route would create

True there would be a lot of College kids going home, but that's only at the end of semesters and most of the time they would probably drive to take their cars home.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2220 times:



Quoting John (Reply 12):
Years ago, Eastern ran a daily flight that went PVD-ISP-ATL and return. As I recall, those flights did fairly well with the Long Island commuters. It was operated w/727-200 eqiuipment.

From Eastern's November 1st, 1984 timetable:

Islip-
Atlanta 2x daily- Providence 1 daily

From Eastern's April 1987 Timetable:

Islip-
Ft. Lauderdale 2x daily- Orlando, Tampa 1 daily.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2168 times:



Quoting CanyonBlue17 (Reply 10):
Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 9):
What about BOS-ISP?

I remember flying this route when about 20 years ago on a purple and yellow Precision Air Dornier 228. What a quick and fun flight. I was heading up to Hanscom AFB for an airshow.

In addition to the fore-mentioned PVD-ISP-ATL/FLL route; EA offered BOS-ISP-FLL (not sure about ATL) as well on a 757 back in 1985.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineA318 From Bahamas, joined Jan 2008, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1898 times:

I'm still waiting for ISP-RDU and ISP-DEN. I also think Spirit should come back and try a shot at ISP-SJU.

Hasn't Southwest tried a few other markets out of Islip? Didn't they also serve JAX and BNA, along with PVD?



Welcome aboard!
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1788 times:
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Quoting A318 (Reply 16):
'm still waiting for ISP-RDU and ISP-DEN

Don't count on it.

Quoting A318 (Reply 16):
Didn't they also serve JAX and BNA, along with PVD?

Yes.



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2977 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

ALB used to fly to ISP with CO, the flights were always overbooked. I don't know how many pax fly the route.

I would also like WN to try ALB-BUF/BOS/LGA and BUF with the same routes, but I don't they won't. I think BUF has a lower chance of getting those routes with WN just because B6 is there.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4312 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1656 times:
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Quoting USAirALB (Reply 18):

I would also like WN to try ALB-BUF/BOS/LGA and BUF with the same routes, but I don't they won't. I think BUF has a lower chance of getting those routes with WN just because B6 is there.

WN would start all of those routes if they ever get enough LGA slots, which won't be anytime in the near future. Short-haul flights with lots of business travelers is what Southwest originally was known for, and the demand for upstate NY/BOS to LGA would be huge. It would be a goldmine for them.



Next fights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1650 times:
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I think WN would be better served to consider new services from MHT to DEN,RDU and sesaonal service to RSW. Should they ever have enough LGA slots perhaps MHT-LGA.
Just my 2 cents!


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