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Human Remains Found - 2nd Runway Construction AKL  
User currently offlineNZ8800 From New Zealand, joined May 2006, 425 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7595 times:

Apparently there have been 85 skeletons found during the construction of Runway 05L/23R at Auckland Airport - apparently in 600 year old ancient Maori burial grounds.

One local Marae (Pukaki) was consulted before construction began, but not the Makaurau Marae, which is protesting loudly.
I am sure that there will be ructions ahead, but as far as I know construction continues on the new runway, which will be rather shorter than the current one and planned for use by domestic aircraft, particularly turboprops which provide a large number of services to/from Auckland.
After that, the Air New Zealand Domestic Terminal at Auckland will finally (around 50 years after it first opened!) be turned into the cargo terminal it was originally supposed to be (and still looks like, despite frequent renovations), and a new domestic terminal will be built to the north of the International Terminal. I gather Qantas, Pacific Blue, and other airlines will be accommodated in the new domestic terminal as well as a large common-use facility.
Although - I think what the airport needs most of all right now is a second pier for the International Terminal...

Link here at Television New Zealand: http://tvnz.co.nz/content/2721545

Hopefully the skeletons will be respectfully reburied elsewhere, but I don't think this should hold up the new runway which will hopefully improve the country's gateway.
What do other people think?


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28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24965 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7548 times:
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Quoting NZ8800 (Thread starter):
What do other people think?

I hate to sound cynical, but I imagine money will change hands and the ruffled feathers will be calmed down.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7513 times:

In the USA, construction would have been stopped.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1115 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7159 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
In the USA, construction would have been stopped.

Not necessarily permanently, though. There are any number of examples of road construction encountering old, abandoned cemeteries. I have no idea what protocols have to be followed, but in the end bodies are moved and work goes on.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineDeaphen From India, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 1425 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7161 times:

Interesting, was watching a show on National Geographic on Turkey and how they were trying to constuct an underwater trainlink to connect the parts of the city divided by water. And it was amazing, at every every every step, they were stopped because whenever they dug, they found some ancient artifacts. Very interesting, shows how much history that part of the world harbours under its surface. Remarkable!

Nitin



I want every single airport and airplane in India to be on A.net!
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7057 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
In the USA, construction would have been stopped.

In which case I applaud that....I sincerely do.
However, if that's the case I'm then a little confused as to why so many Americans on here (and I'm not referring to yourself at all) seem to insist that construction of airports/runways in other countries should be constructed regardless of anything in the name of 'commercial needs'


User currently offlineSebjacques92 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6947 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 5):
However, if that's the case I'm then a little confused as to why so many Americans on here (and I'm not referring to yourself at all) seem to insist that construction of airports/runways in other countries should be constructed regardless of anything in the name of 'commercial needs'

Completely agree and its nothing against you lkramerica, its just generally in the USA (and probably the rest of the world) my assumption was you would do exactly what they are planning on doing i NZ, which is to move the remains. Of course these situations need to be handled with care but there will be a solution that will hopefully meet the needs of all concerned. I cant imagine them abandoning a runway that will cost lots of millions because of something like this.

If you take Athens airport for example, if my memory is correct i read in the airport muzeum that they were finding all kinds of stuff as well as Greek temple remains which were moved and then taken into muzeums etc. There were quite a number of problems that occured with this but all ended up well. (good muzeum by the way, visit it for free airside at the airport  Smile )


User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2348 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6839 times:
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In Tokyo, a single farmer with his flock of chickens can stop a runway extension for decades ..... however, in that NZ case it's quite different ... settle an agreement, propose relocating the remains, and come to a win-win situation by offering a memorial or money for the like to the Marae


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User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6799 times:



Quoting PITingres (Reply 3):
Not necessarily permanently, though. There are any number of examples of road construction encountering old, abandoned cemeteries. I have no idea what protocols have to be followed, but in the end bodies are moved and work goes on.

It depends on what the Native tribe allows. From what I understand, if the tribe does not allow for moving the remains, things can be stopped indefinitely...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2324 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

You'd think in such areas they would have scanned the ground ahead of time? Fence off the burial grounds and put a little plaque there, and have your runway a few hundred feet off of either side.

Quoting LH526 (Reply 7):
In Tokyo, a single farmer with his flock of chickens can stop a runway extension for decades ..... however, in that NZ case it's quite different ... settle an agreement, propose relocating the remains, and come to a win-win situation by offering a memorial or money for the like to the Marae

It's not like they had to put the 2nd NRT runway there though. They built the runway pretty much around his land with the idea that he would sell as so many others had. Not a good idea in Japan with probably the strictest property protection laws in the world. In contrast to this business strategy, you have someone like the developer Mori who collected 27 acres worth of land parcels for 14 years so that he could build his 50-story Mori Tower and Roppongi Hills.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6697 times:



Quoting Sebjacques92 (Reply 6):
USA (and probably the rest of the world) my assumption was you would do exactly what they are planning on doing i NZ, which is to move the remains.

When the new ATL 10/28 was built, they purposefully insured that 2 cemeteries in the path wouldnt be disturbed, and they are still accessible from public roads. Granted, there are 20ft berms right outside the cemetery fence for the runway surface, but the cemeteries (which were on the periphery to begin with) are still intact.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2950 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6659 times:
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Quote:
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 17184 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted Sat May 9 2009 06:02:36 your local time (12 hours 33 minutes 47 secs ago) and read 828 times:

In the USA, construction would have been stopped.

Here in the UK work would also be suspended, as just about all construction contracts have an antiquities clause.

However having said that England does have extensive documents detailing churches and burials going back to the Domesday Book and census completed in 1086 !

However burials and other structures finds etc... are still found during works from much earlier periods. These are always investigated by archaeologists.

I single burial raises more suspicion and requires the police to be informed again suspending works.

On large projects it is usually possible to continue elsewhere on the site as the programme may be adversely effected and increase costs accrued to the final account.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 11):
Here in the UK work would also be suspended, as just about all construction contracts have an antiquities clause.

There are two different issues at work here.

Antiquities/archeology, and Native American rights via treaty and law.

From what I understand, a similar find in the USA to what was found in NZ would fall under the Native American rights banner, and the nation/tribe who can lay positive claim to the grave site then must be dealt with.

If it were simply an archeological find on human or animal remains from ancient times, then the site would be excavated and the find moved to a research facility.

But when it's dealing with "Indian Burial Grounds" it isn't that simple.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2950 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6561 times:
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Ikramerica

So true.

That's really Is only a problem in the "colonies" I suppose.

Those sort of ownership issues have long been resolved here and rightly or wrongly we are generally religiously indifferent as a nation.

In the main we are either of either Roman/Saxon or just perhaps Celtic in origin and other than a few misguided and half read new age nutters and tree huggers such finds have only academic significance.


User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5972 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
In the USA, construction would have been stopped.

As long as it wasn't a murder victim that was found, it would not be halted for long.

Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 13):
That's really Is only a problem in the "colonies" I suppose.

By colonies do you mean the United States of America?  Smile

Atlanta



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User currently offlineBorism From Estonia, joined Oct 2006, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5777 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 13):
Those sort of ownership issues have long been resolved here and rightly or wrongly we are generally religiously indifferent as a nation.

In the main we are either of either Roman/Saxon or just perhaps Celtic in origin and other than a few misguided and half read new age nutters and tree huggers such finds have only academic significance.

What!?


User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5732 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 13):
That's really Is only a problem in the "colonies" I suppose.

Those sort of ownership issues have long been resolved here and rightly or wrongly we are generally religiously indifferent as a nation.

In the main we are either of either Roman/Saxon or just perhaps Celtic in origin and other than a few misguided and half read new age nutters and tree huggers such finds have only academic significance.

Very true, same in Holland.



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User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4927 times:

An old cemetery located in the middle of the site for the new runway 10C/28C at ORD has caused lots of problems and has delayed that project. Not sure where it currently stands but I believe they were going to start construction, leaving the cemetery site undisturbed pending ongoing litigation. The cemetery owner (a church) is opposed to moving the cemetery. It's been the subject of legal battles for a few years.

Summary of the issues from 2006:
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...ezorn/2006/04/cemetery_fight_.html


User currently offlineChase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4370 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
In the USA, construction would have been stopped.

When they extended the light rail to STL in 1993, human remains were moved from the area where the tracks enter airport property from the southeast.

Although, these remains weren't ancient - it was a cemetery that was perhaps 50-100 years old.


User currently offlineNZ8800 From New Zealand, joined May 2006, 425 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

Yes - quite probably some money will be paid, and/or a memorial erected near the runway, and construction will go on. Despite the Treaty of Waitangi, the members of one marae are not going to stop a 1200m runway (stage one) being extended to 2150m (by stage three) going ahead...

Interesting insights from other countries around the world!



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User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3707 times:



Quoting Atlanta (Reply 14):
As long as it wasn't a murder victim that was found, it would not be halted for long.

You wanna bet? First, the remains would need to be identified. If it were 500-600 years old, that would mean finding out which tribe they belonged to. Then that tribe would be notified. Then the fun begins...

Could be halted indefinitely via court injunction.

Quoting Chase (Reply 18):
Although, these remains weren't ancient - it was a cemetery that was perhaps 50-100 years old.

Uh huh. And this isn't what I'm talking about.

If you read the OPs information, this is an ancient Native New Zealander graveyard. This is not just some cemetery built in the 20th century.

I was comparing this to what would happen in the USA in a similar situation, not simply when finding a modern graveyard built by settlers/colonists.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5283 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3490 times:



Quoting Atlanta (Reply 14):
As long as it wasn't a murder victim that was found, it would not be halted for long.

Not necessarily true...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hood_Canal_Bridge#East-half_replacement

I won't offer any opinions on this as it would quickly result in a pointless metaphysical argument.



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User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1601 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3342 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):

Sure. An Archaeological Team would dig and sift for a month. Construction would then begin again.

6m after the runway opens someone gets a prize.

Reality.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 3133 times:

A side point of interest - one cemetery has already been disturbed by the runway construction. Most of you who've driven down the main thoroughfare to the airport (George Bolt Memorial Drive) will recall a small church (dating from the 1880s I believe) with a small cemetery just to the right before the airport. The graves dated from 1880-1930, I think.

The church itself was moved to another field, and the graves were all exhumed and the remains reburied elsewhere.



-
User currently offlineAtlanta From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 473 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 3124 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
You wanna bet? First, the remains would need to be identified. If it were 500-600 years old, that would mean finding out which tribe they belonged to. Then that tribe would be notified. Then the fun begins...



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 21):
Not necessarily true...

I stand corrected, I did not know that finding human remains could completely halt construction on major projects.

Atlanta



Welcome To The New Delta- The World's Largest Airline
25 MotorHussy : If the airport and the construction company are dealing with the site and remains respectfully and with the correct protocols, the local Iwi (tribe) o
26 Mariner : When work first started on the Southern Motorway in Auckland, four hundred graves from the Symonds Street cemetery had to be dug up and the remains r
27 MotorHussy : Agreed, same as here in Welington when the motorway was put through the middle of town in the 70's. The oldest pakeha (non-indigenous) cemetery or ur
28 Rampart : In most cases now in the US involving human remains that date beyond European settlement (usually >300 years), most have links to Native American ent
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