ALB-DEN - 183 daily pax (about 92 per day each way)
BUF-DEN = 169 daily pax (about 85 per day each way)
MHT-DEN - 174 daily pax (about 87 per day each way)
BDL-DEN - 391 daily pax (about 196 per day each way) ....
...and that was back when F9 was still flying the route, and even then, F9 only had 26% of the market or about 102 daily pax (51 per day each way.) I'm not sure how many other seats were filled by passengers connecting in DEN to other places.
RDU-DEN is a stronger market with 468 daily pax (about 234 per day each way)
Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter): On a side note, US has discontinued PHX-BDL and no one flies ALB-PHX. MHT/PVD/BUF all fly the route, ALB could also support the route, we have 141 daily pax.
These are the statistics from Q3 2008
ALB-PHX - 119 daily pax (about 60 per day each way)
BUF-PHX - 272 daily pax (about 136 per day each way)
MHT-DEN - 210 daily pax (about 105 per day each way)
PVD-PHX - 265 daily pax (about 133 per day each way.)
I think ALB-DEN would have to grow to at least 200 daily pax (100 per day each way) before WN would consider adding a nonstop flight in that market.
I'm not trying to say it would never happen, but I don't think it will be any time soon - especially since the economy is worse now than it was during Q3 2008.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31726 posts, RR: 72 Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4861 times:
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 3): ALB-FLL doesn't have 200 pax, in fact it has the same pax number of DEN, 183
1) It does during the winter months, when the market size just about doubles.
2) You have to include PBI and MIA to get actual market size.
3) The O&D figures so far are before Southwest started FLL-ALB. Market stimulation has probably increased daily O&D by 35-40%.
4) Market stimulation is easy to gain on leisure routes and markets that already have close ties (i.e. Albany to Florida); not so easy in a market like Albany-Denver/Phoenix.
LoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3751 posts, RR: 36 Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4855 times:
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 3): Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 2):
I think ALB-DEN would have to grow to at least 200 daily pax (100 per day each way) before WN would consider
Really, that much? I mean both PHX and DEN could be used as connecting points, so you can add about 20% to those passengers.
I meant to say ALB-PHX, but the same would apply to ALB-DEN. I'm basing my opinion on the fact that MHT, PVD, and BUF all have nonstop service to PHX (and all are over 200 pax/day) while ALB has no nonstop service to PHX and is under 200 pax/day.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15058 posts, RR: 26 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4845 times:
Let's remember what WN does. They don't particularly like the little niche routes but would rather cherry pick the bigger markets. Also, they still tend to not fly longer nonstops. They do now more than before, but they still feel such markets would best be served with stops or connections. And quite frankly, there are probably more profitable routes that they could be flying than DEN to some relatively small East Coast markets.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
The times for both dep and arrivals were insane. I remember they had one flight that arrived at 130 or 2 AM and another that left quite early. And there was nothing mid day. Very strange scheduling. At least in my opnion.
I think WN would really be able to pull off BDL-DEN. They seem to do quite well at BDL and considering the lack of flights out west from BDL it would be perfect.
I'm Here So It Worked-Every Pilot Who Made a Semi Unsafe Decision
Like Mariner said, they were red-eyes. I am hoping that if F9 does return to BDL after bankruptcy, the times will be more reasonable. But who knows what Menke has in mind post-bankruptcy.... anything is possible with him!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
LoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3751 posts, RR: 36 Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 4437 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): 2) You have to include PBI and MIA to get actual market size.
I'm just curious. Why does the Department of Transportation lump EWR, LGA, and JFK all together and call it "New York"; or lump IAD & DCA and call it "Washington" (while BWI is shown as a separate market), but they show PBI, MIA and FLL as three separate markets?
Why don't they lump PBI, FLL and MIA together and call it "South Florida" like you do?
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3911 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 4361 times:
At one point I suggested that Manchester-Denver non-stop flights would work extremely well for whichever airline decided to try it. The two candidates are United and Southwest. But United hasn't been in any position to expand anywhere...never mind little Manchester. So we can forget them. As for Southwest, they can happily bide their time knowing that their sole potential competitor is flat-lining. I agree on two things: MHT-DEN is on the list of 'new markets' for Southwest, but it is probably a ways down that list.
John From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4050 times:
ChrisNH: Wouldn't that be a pissah if WN decided to do BOS-DEN first...or have they announced that already? Sorry, I haven't done my homework...LOL! Regardless though, it wouldn't surprise me. I do have a gut feeling however that as the BOS market matures for WN, I could see MHT and PVD losing a few frequencies.
PBIflyguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 248 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4008 times:
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 1): I'm also curious to why Frontier failed at BDL. Were they just having problems within the airline, and had to cancel some routes?
Most likely because of crappy flight times that led to poor loads. Same thing happened in PBI. Morning departure to DEN was good at 07:30 , but the flight from DEN to PBI was a red eye that arrived around 05:30 . If DEN-PBI had been a late arrival with a RON the loads would have been better.
Dolphinflyer From Canada, joined May 2005, 194 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 3715 times:
You raise an interesting point, and it's one that I've also pondered. The most recent O&D data (YE4Q08) shows the following info:
DEN - BDL 171 PPDEW
DEN - ALB 80 PPDEW
DEN - MHT 79 PPDEW
DEN - BUF 75 PPDEW
DEN - PVD 72 PPDEW
DEN-ORF 79 PPDEW, so that's in the same O&D ballpark. I think there's merit to WN considering nonstop service in all of the above markets. Interesting that ALB fares so well versus the other cities. From WN's perspective, I could understand their concern of overflying connecting opportunities at MDW from the above cities, but given the lack of a true hub/spoke system at MDW, I believe that once-daily nonstop service to/from DEN could prove viable. I think that WN is better poised to make a go of nonstop service in these markets than either F9 or UA. Hope it works out. Would be great to add DEN to ALB's nonstop route map!
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3911 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 3649 times:
Quoting John (Reply 21): ChrisNH: Wouldn't that be a pissah if WN decided to do BOS-DEN first...or have they announced that already? Sorry, I haven't done my homework...LOL! Regardless though, it wouldn't surprise me. I do have a gut feeling however that as the BOS market matures for WN, I could see MHT and PVD losing a few frequencies.
I think we're all resigned to losing some frequencies at both PVD and MHT. That's a perfectly plausible outcome. However, PVD and MHT are solid performers on their own and I believe the numbers bear that out.
It actually wouldn't bother me to see Southwest launch Boston-Denver service because it would give us a ringside seat to see how (or even if) United would respond. Simply driving out a competitor by low-balling fares for a couple months might work with a weak adversary. But Southwest isn't that kind of adversary. If they launch BOS-DEN, you know it's for the long haul. Then it becomes a game of chicken with an already-weak UAL to see what they'd do. There's not a whole lot they COULD do.
25 FlyPNS1: These numbers are all too low for nonstop service, unless WN is going to rely heavily on connections in DEN. Keep in mind that even if WN were to fly
26 ChrisNH: I agree that there's not much 'demand' there, but I don't think demand for MHT/PVD-BWI was all that robust before Southwest came along. Keep in mind
27 FlyPNS1: But that effect is largely in place already since you can fly MHT-BWI-DEN or MHT-MDW-DEN, so it's not as if WN isn't already affecting fares. Adding
28 LoneStarMike: It's true there was very little demand MHT/PVD-BWI before WN came along, but that was because US was charging average fares of about $1.00 per mile (
29 B752OS: The same could be said for a number of markets (where WN could bgein service that UA already has). BOS-DEN is a pretty good sized market with over 1,
30 F9fan: I was checking WN's flight schedule, and observed something curious. Come this fall, other than to or from LAS (which is only about 40 miles from the
31 AirframeAS: Concourse C at DEN is actually being expanded at the moment.
32 SANFan: I agree on your entire post, "Fly..." Nothing new; it's been this way since Oct of 2007 when the LA and OAK transcons were all xld (and has been much
33 Cubsrule: WN has about six gates at its disposal. There's no capacity constraint for them (yet).
34 BMI727: They are good at using one or two stop flights effectively, plus if the price is right people won't care. They get more (or better) use out of their
35 Eghansen: It has to do with ownership. LGA, EWR and JFK are all owned by the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey. DCA and IAD are both owned by the Metropoli
36 PVD757: The dynamic in the BOS/MHT/PVD is cloudy due to leakage. In markets where BOS has low-fare + nonstop service, the O&D numbers at PVD & MHT are artific