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UA/EI Joint Venture...  
User currently offlineG4maddog From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7169 times:

Just wondering if anyone knows the status of the planned UA / EI joint venture (whole new subsidiary) to fly from IAD to MAD...

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0122/aerlingus.html

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuvflng From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2000, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7083 times:

In all honesty, would you think that UA mainline pilots would let management weasle them out of international flying? Since the negotiations with UA APLA started last month, EI IAD-MAD flying will be used as a concession from the management to give something back to the pilots. IMHO, you will never see EI flying for United.

-luvflng



Radar Contact Terminated, Squawk VFR
User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

The article mentions that the two airlines will launch service from IAD to MAD in 2010. Is this part of the possible joint venture or did UA announce MAD service and I missed it?

User currently offlineMercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1489 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6830 times:

'We are very excited by the potential of the partnership and believe that the unique combination of two leading transatlantic airlines can drive significant value for the shareholders of both companies,' commented Aer Lingus CEO Dermot Mannion.

....

Dermot Mannion left the CEO spot only 3 months after saying this...hmmmm


User currently offlineUnited From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6762 times:



Quoting Luvflng (Reply 1):
In all honesty, would you think that UA mainline pilots would let management weasle them out of international flying? Since the negotiations with UA APLA started last month, EI IAD-MAD flying will be used as a concession from the management to give something back to the pilots. IMHO, you will never see EI flying for United.

Right on. The number one issue in the contract negotiations this time around is scope. Scope is the defining factor in how many flights may be outsourced and how many may be kept. This is nothing new; it exists with the ALPA agreement to allow UA a certain percentage of UX flying, which has in recent years vastly increased (with the advent of CR7s, E70s,..) and, arguably, taken away 737 flying from United pilots. Now, with the pending EI agreement, crews hired entirely separately from the UA and EI pool of pilots (and perhaps cabin crew too) will be used, paid far less than pilots at either existing entity, and will presumably used to an ever increasing number of transatlantic routes to cut staffing costs... just as the UX agreements have done to the smaller mainline UA jets flying.

In my opinion, the pilots at UA will never let this happen. I have heard, though, that the EI pilots unfortunately do not really have much say in the issue of scope within their contract.



The opinions expressed here are mine and not necessarily those of Delta Air Lines.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25406 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6742 times:

While the pilots might not want this to happen, its nice pressure on them just in time for contract talks.

Who is to say UAL Corp cannot be successfully contract out some long haul flying ala UAX?

Frankly as a customer, I could care less as long as the product and price was good. And as an investor, as long as it made economic sense the more power to UA.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEyeonthesky17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6541 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Who is to say UAL Corp cannot be successfully contract out some long haul flying ala UAX?

This would all depend on how it affected the other carriers in UA's trans-Atlantic JV (LH, CO and AC). I don't think any of them were counting on sharing any revenues with EI.


User currently offlinePinhammond From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

Writing as one who had negotiated 2 agreements to fly for a US carrier on sectors which had been flown on their own aircraft within Europe I can tell you that there is no way that ALPA will consider such an idea even for one micro-second.

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6312 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
While the pilots might not want this to happen, its nice pressure on them just in time for contract talks.

Who is to say UAL Corp cannot be successfully contract out some long haul flying ala UAX?

Frankly as a customer, I could care less as long as the product and price was good. And as an investor, as long as it made economic sense the more power to UA.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the IPA, which represent the Aer Lingus pilots have made it clear this is DOA. Their contract has a scope clause which also prohibits an operation such as this.

What pressure is it for their contract? None at all. The company agreed to the scope language and that won't change without some large incentive.

As an investor, it makes no economic sense at all!


User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6225 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
While the pilots might not want this to happen, its nice pressure on them just in time for contract talks.

Who is to say UAL Corp cannot be successfully contract out some long haul flying ala UAX?

Frankly as a customer, I could care less as long as the product and price was good. And as an investor, as long as it made economic sense the more power to UA.

That would be one of the quickest ways to bring on a strike.

I'm so tired of management trying to screw the employees.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6052 times:

If anyone wants to see United survive DON'T support this flight. Don't allow UA management to break all the Unions and turn the airline into scab central!

Enough in enough!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineCOEI2007 From Vanuatu, joined Jan 2007, 1912 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5622 times:

P**s off UA and EI unions at the same time? Not the smartest thing from UA and EI!

EI's former CEO had come up with this idea. He is now gone, so lets hope the idea is gone. Most airlines are cutting back transatlantic capacity, and a route like IAD-MAD on a 330 is madness at this time. It was supposed to be on sale last month, and still isnt, so that isnt a good sign. I doubt UA's partners would be to happy about having EI flying for them!!!


User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4612 times:

The IAD-MAD route was supposed to be bookable from April on aerlingus.com but here we sit...


Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineAlphaomega From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4485 times:

IAD-MAD was originally set out to be sold by UA and EI, with UA booking most of the seats and EI operating the route with their aircraft and personnel.

Why? Not sure, but I'm guessing we can get a good thread going about the why...

In any event, the daily IAD-MAD is scheduled to start next March, along with IAD-DUB going daily...so we shall see how it unfolds. UA and EI are already cooperating on the IAD-DUB route with mixed results.


User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

The timings have been released for the EI/UA IAD-MAD route:

From Washington DC

UA4963 / (EI flight # TBD)
Depart: 17:30
Arrive: 07:15 +1
Equipment: Airbus A330-202
Frequency: Daily



From Madrid

UA4962 / (EI flight # TBD)
Depart: 11:05
Arrive: 14:00
Equipment: Airbus A330-202
Frequency: Daily

Now bookable on united.com (pending government approval) from March 28 2010.



Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4070 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 15):
The timings have been released for the EI/UA IAD-MAD route:

There is a big difference between loading the flight in the GDS and actually operating it. This flight has about zero chance of operating!


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4015 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 18):
Why not?

Well how about scope language?

Both the UAL and the EI pilot contracts have specific language that prohibits this type of operation. I can assure you, both pilot groups would let their airline go under rather than allow this operation to take place.

Mark my words, it will not happen!


User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1730 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

i think this flight will never take off, there aren´t enough traffic to support this operation and the IB, I think this venture won´t survive because the pilots unions in UA.

If the route is profitable why UA do not operate by themselves??

I think this move was to put some pressure before the negotiations with unions, we will never see EI flying for UA.

Also I can´t understand why EI was doing this to IB when they are partners in OW, it was a very weird movement.
Is EI planning to leave OW??


User currently offlineGT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1789 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3962 times:



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 22):
Also I can´t understand why EI was doing this to IB when they are partners in OW, it was a very weird movement.
Is EI planning to leave OW??

EI left OneWorld several years ago now.



Proud to fly from Manchester!
User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6338 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3952 times:



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 22):
Is EI planning to leave OW??

Aer Lingus left One World in 2007!

Despite leaving One World, Aer Lingus kept most of their links with airlines in the alliance such as the British Airways code share which has been expanded to more Irish-London routes recently. They dropped the American Airlines code share in favour for a more extensive partnership with United which see's the UA code on all Aer Lingus transatlantic flights and the EI code on a number of domestic United flights. After leaving One World Aer Lingus also began their partnership with JetBlue which has proven very successful in the first year. I think Aer Lingus will feel the need to join an alliance again but I don't think it will be One Word, more likely is Star Alliance as they fly to more of their hubs and have this close relationship with United.


User currently offlineShamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3944 times:



Quoting Pinhammond (Reply 7):
Writing as one who had negotiated 2 agreements to fly for a US carrier on sectors which had been flown on their own aircraft within Europe I can tell you that there is no way that ALPA will consider such an idea even for one micro-second.

It's funny Pinhammond, when ever it's something to do with Aer Lingus, you are "speaking as someone who has done..... such and such".

Can you give some back up perhaps?

It's just you said something similar when EI started its Gatwick ops...



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineBramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3576 times:



Quoting Luvflng (Reply 1):
you will never see EI flying for United

No. Because its being planned as a new setup under the UA/EI brand. Both sets of pilots/cabin staff are getting screwed here.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 3):
Dermot Mannion left the CEO spot only 3 months after saying this...hmmmm

But the 'joint venture' going ahead has been confirmed by the Chairman and interim CEO Colm Barrington 3 days ago.

Still no info on what the other 2 routes being planned are. Original plan was to have 3 A330-200 operating the 'joint venture'


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25406 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Aer Lingus just published the flights as well in GDS.

EI6963 IAD-MAD
EI6962 MAD-IAD



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

Still would like to know if it counts toward Lifetime United Flight Miles (million miler status) If it doesn't, then I will continue to connect in FRA or MUC, just like several other people that I know. I wish United would publish this.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25406 posts, RR: 49
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

I dont believe so. BIS miles as I recall are for only from UAL+UAX metal.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 DeltaL1011man : If its in the contract that they cant then I would say you are right. If it isn't in the contract(and you can bet your a** that the other big 5 pilot
26 Joeljack : That's my understanding too but just thought I would ask because this is kind of a special circumstance.
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