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WSJ Expose On Colgan Air/CO 3407  
User currently offline28thguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22481 times:

The WSJ has a story in tomorrow's edition faulting the crew and Colgan Air for the crash of CO 3407. It notes that Captain Renslow had flunked numerous qualifications tests and check rides during his career at Colgan, and may also have lied on his employment application. He also had only 109 hours of experience on the Q400, "an unusually limited amount of time by industry standards". Co-pilot Rebecca Shaw had a "clean" record but had flown in on a red eye from Seattle to report to duty, and complained on the voice recorder about feeling congested and that she "probably should have called in sick".

In recent weeks, the top two training officials at Colgan Air have also resigned.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

166 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineACKattack From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22479 times:

This is quite a damning article and clearly brings into question some of the formal and possibly informal policies at Colgan.
It makes me wonder if their is an connection between this and the Colgan ferry flight (B1900D) that crashed off of Cape Cod (HYA) a few summers ago.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22367 times:

I think we'll all have to take the middle position somewhere between Colgan and the media.

Take this sentence in the article for example: "Capt. Renslow had about 109 hours of experience flying the Q400 as a captain, an unusually limited amount of time by industry standards."

Well, since everybody starts at 0 hours at some point as a captain on a particular aircraft, I believe the wording is inappropriate and misleading. So instead of completing trusting either side at this point, I'm going to ask my contact - a former Pinnacle pilot - about what he thought of their training practices.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22046 times:



Quoting 28thguy (Thread starter):
Co-pilot Rebecca Shaw had a "clean" record but had flown in on a red eye from Seattle to report to duty, and complained on the voice recorder about feeling congested and that she "probably should have called in sick".

How often does this happen?

Several years ago I had a conversation at Auckland airport with the wife of a Brussels based cargo pilot. He was returning to duty 'subload' and would arrive only a few hours before flying. When I queried the wisdom of him flying tired, she was unconcerned saying he would just get the co-pilot to do the flying.

PA515


User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3996 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21949 times:



Quote:
On Sunday, spokesman Joe Williams confirmed in an email that Capt. Renslow had five "unsatisfactory" training check rides in his career -- including two at Colgan -- but passed a subsequent series of training tests

Apparently the CPT became a commercial pilot in 2005 at the age of 43 and had flunked two checks since then (one each on the B1900 and the Saab 340), with three failed checks on GA aircraft before. Would that be regarded as (very) unusual or is it non-news?


User currently offlineContrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21917 times:



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 2):
I think we'll all have to take the middle position somewhere between Colgan and the media.

Good point.

I'll wait on the official NTSB report before drawing any conclusions, but it raises some troubling questions just the same.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21728 times:



Quoting 28thguy (Thread starter):
Co-pilot Rebecca Shaw had a "clean" record but had flown in on a red eye from Seattle to report to duty

This is why I have a hard time when a pilot or union cites "fatigue" as a factor. Fatigue is an issue when the company makes you work, but if the same pilot chooses to commute to work on the redeye, its "personal choice".

As others have said, we do need to wait on the NTSB report, but so far I'm not impressed....


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5643 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21608 times:

In recent weeks, Colgan's top two training officials resigned; Mr. Williams has said their decisions were voluntary and not connected to the accident.

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21600 times:



Quoting ACKattack (Reply 1):
It makes me wonder if their is an connection between this and the Colgan ferry flight (B1900D) that crashed off of Cape Cod (HYA) a few summers ago.

While I agree that the article does give Colgan a black eye, all it appears to be doing is pushing Colgans fist into it's eye. However, your wondering about the HYA crash years ago, that Captain was a friend of mine. We did our instrument training together many years ago. I knew of no training deficiencies with him. That crash was due to a mis-rigged elevator trim cable and had nothing to do with training or pilot records.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030904X01459&key=1

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21502 times:
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Double yikes. Sounds like they'll be liable.

Another article.

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/667926.html


User currently offlineACKattack From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21424 times:



Quoting 727forever (Reply 8):
While I agree that the article does give Colgan a black eye, all it appears to be doing is pushing Colgans fist into it's eye. However, your wondering about the HYA crash years ago, that Captain was a friend of mine. We did our instrument training together many years ago. I knew of no training deficiencies with him. That crash was due to a mis-rigged elevator trim cable and had nothing to do with training or pilot records.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030904X01459&key=1

727forever

727forever, thank you and I am sorry to hear that was a friend of yours. That crash happened near my home and I will never forget that day.

Though it is good to know that these events were not connected.


User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21324 times:



Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 2):
I think we'll all have to take the middle position somewhere between Colgan and the media.

Take this sentence in the article for example: "Capt. Renslow had about 109 hours of experience flying the Q400 as a captain, an unusually limited amount of time by industry standards."

I agree the media often seizes on the wrong things in these reports, but I would be interested to know his total time in type. If it's around 115 hours, I'd be concerned.

While I agree it's prudent to wait for the NTSB report before passing final judgment, there is a lot in this article that gives one significant pause.


Cheers,
Dave in Orlando



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21215 times:

I concur, lets wait and see what the NTSB found.

However, I predict this will set off another media round of "how safe are regional airlines" bullcaca within the coming weeks  Angry I can already see it in the USAToday.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21087 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 12):
However, I predict this will set off another media round of "how safe are regional airlines" bullcaca within the coming weeks   I can already see it in the USAToday.

Yes, and I wonder if this will be revived:

"The former head of the National Transportation Safety Board – the U.S. agency that's investigating last Thursday's crash of a Canadian-built commuter plane near Buffalo, N.Y. – says all similar twin-engine turboprops should be grounded, at least until the investigation is complete.

"I think the prudent thing to do ... is ground the aircraft," until the board investigation is finished, said Jim Hall, chair of the federal agency from 1994 through 2001."


He was commenting on the effectiveness of de-ice systems on turbo-props and the FAA's certification procedures, as I recall. It is looking like ice wasn't an issue in this case, but obviously the final NTSB report will have something to say about it.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6875 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20552 times:

It seems at this point that the pilot was somewhat marginal in ability, and Colgan's training was somewhat inadequate. This is by no means unusual; when pilots are in short supply airlines have to make choices that in other times they would rather not in order to keep planes flying. 2005 was likely such a time; traffic was booming and airliners were buying all the airplanes they could get their hands on. Once a pilot is hired, it is very difficult to get rid of him unless he commits a major blunder. Unfortunately in this case the major blunder was fatal, not only to the pilot but to the rest of the crew, passengers, and one person on the ground.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1352 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20401 times:

As both a pilot and writer who regularly criticizes media coverage of aviation incidents, let me say this...

That was a really good piece by major media standards. The only part that jumped out at me was the line about the captain having only 109 hours in type. To be fair, he was a new captain on the type. You don't accrue hours spontaneously. In fact it is very common for airline pilots to upgrade into a type they have little or no prior experience in.

In any case, the crash wasn't caused by anything aircraft specific. It was caused by the captain's head-spinningly egregious reaction in response to the stall warning. He apparently pulled back not only against the stick shaker, but against the PUSHER. Earlier speculation that he was reacting to a perceived tailplane stall was giving him too much credit, it seems.

And I find it incredible that the captain had five -- FIVE! -- FAA checkride failures on his record, and was yet in the employ of an airline. None of us are perfect, and there are many good airline pilots with the occasional re-check on their records. But FIVE? That is pretty much unprecedented. And Colgan's comment that the captain had "failed to fully disclose that poor performance" sounds bogus to me. FAA records are scoured before any candidate is hired. If he successfully hid something, it's the carrier's fault for not doing an adequate background check.

What a terrible black mark this is for regional carriers... though to some extent, they had it coming. There is something very, very wrong in the cultures at these airlines. Between the lousy pay and the miserable working conditions and the often hostile managements under which their pilots work... It needs to change, or there will be more Colgans.

Here's a piece I did on this topic, if you are interested...

Did a stupid mistake cause the Buffalo crash? Plus, the weird hell of regional airlines
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2009/04/03/askthepilot315/

PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20197 times:

The more damning part of the article is:

Quote:
The crew initially didn't notice the plane's speed had dropped dangerously low, sliding under 115 miles an hour, and risked going into a stall. The slowing speed set off an emergency system called a "stick-pusher," which pushes the control column down in order to send the aircraft into a temporary dive so it can regain speed and recover from a stall.

However, Capt. Renslow tried to force the plane to do the opposite. He yanked back on the controls while adding thrust. His effort was strong enough to manually override the stick-pusher. Within seconds, the plane lost lift, bucked violently and started to roll. It slammed into a house five miles from the runway.

Colgan's standard training program stops short of demonstrating the operation of the stick-pusher in flight simulators. Without such hands-on experience, safety investigators argue, pilots could be surprised and not react properly when the stick-pusher activates during an emergency. The FAA is required to sign off on all airline training manuals.

If I was a family member, I'd find this pretty devastating. It'd be very painful to lose someone to such incompetence.

The crew let the plane get slow, and then didn't know what to do when the stick pusher kicked in?

Sure, not training for it in the simulator is bad, but just reading the flight manual should have clued you in to what the stick pusher does.

Yanking the stick back when you are already slow is the textbook way to force a stall.

Anyone who has passed the PPL knows this.

Waiting for the pilot support group members to chime in in 3... 2... 1...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBAC111 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19434 times:

The 109 hours experience item is interesting. Sully Sullenberger and Al Haynes both once had only 109 hours as Captain of a particular aircraft (actually, more than once as they moved up the fleet chain). It's inevitable. I'm curious what some of you commercial pilots out there would say should be done with such a raw Captain? Pair him/her with an unusually experienced FO? Have full faith in the airline's training program and FAA oversight? Seems to me there's no easy answer to this reality. You're going to have raw Captains all the time.

User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19380 times:



Quoting Aviateur (Reply 15):
That was a really good piece by major media standards.

The author, Andy Pasztor, covers the aerospace beat for WSJ and almost always does a better job than most other outlets.

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 15):
The only part that jumped out at me was the line about the captain having only 109 hours in type. To be fair, he was a new captain on the type. You don't accrue hours spontaneously. In fact it is very common for airline pilots to upgrade into a type they have little or no prior experience in.

Just because that's traditionally been the case does not necessarily mean that's the way it should be. I don't know if there's an alternative, but to me a person with thousands of hours of experience in a type should not have to defer to someone with barely any experience. The fact that he was an older man flying with a more experienced younger woman also brings up all sorts of sociological questions.


User currently offlineXdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19363 times:

Five Pink slips is the tough one here !

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6875 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19270 times:



Quoting BAC111 (Reply 17):
Pair him/her with an unusually experienced FO?

I was under the impression that this was the standard procedure; in this case the F/O had about 700 hours in the Q400, which considering how long Colgan had been flying them probably counts as experienced.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19253 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
but if the same pilot chooses to commute to work on the redeye, its "personal choice".

Taking a red eye in to work is no big deal as I'm sure a lot of pilots do that regularly. What I found interesting was that she spent the prior day skiing. That's an activity involving a lot of physical exertion at higher altitudes (read exhausting). And then she hopped on a red eye to get to work, which means insufficient rest prior to reporting for work.

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 15):
There is something very, very wrong in the cultures at these airlines. Between the lousy pay and the miserable working conditions

Lousy pay and miserable working conditions will only attract applicants with fewer qualifications. It reflects the mindset of the airline industry as a whole. In an effort to maximize profits (or contain costs, as the case may be) they've created conditions that are conducive to lower pay scales.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
The crew let the plane get slow, and then didn't know what to do when the stick pusher kicked in?

Sounds eerily similar to the TK crash in Amsterdam a few months ago; although, in fairness the reasons for the crew's response in that crash seem to be of a different nature.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19170 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 6):
This is why I have a hard time when a pilot or union cites "fatigue" as a factor. Fatigue is an issue when the company makes you work, but if the same pilot chooses to commute to work on the redeye, its "personal choice".

well, we well may find out that fatigue was a factor in this one... as it was in that accident at LEX, IIRC.... I think the prudent answer would not be to call bogus on pilots warning of the effects of fatigue, but rather to prohibit pilots commuting to work on a redeye if they start flying immediately after arriving. Sure, it's personal choice, but that doesn't make it less dangerous...

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 2):

Take this sentence in the article for example: "Capt. Renslow had about 109 hours of experience flying the Q400 as a captain, an unusually limited amount of time by industry standards."

Well, since everybody starts at 0 hours at some point as a captain on a particular aircraft, I believe the wording is inappropriate and misleading.

wouldn't an inexperienced pilot usually be paired with a co-pilot who is also qualified as a captain at least for his first flights where he is in command?



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19086 times:



Quoting Aviateur (Reply 15):
What a terrible black mark this is for regional carriers... though to some extent, they had it coming. There is something very, very wrong in the cultures at these airlines. Between the lousy pay and the miserable working conditions and the often hostile managements under which their pilots work... It needs to change, or there will be more Colgans.

Not every regional runs like Colgan. I think casting every regional in this light is a huge mistake.

Don't fall in to that major airline pilot "I'm better than the regional guys" attitude. Everyone I've flown with at the regional level has been professional, safe and darn good at what they do. Major airline pilots have crashed planes when the only thing wrong is a light bulb. So let's not rush to indict all regionals and their pilots too.



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineDingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 19014 times:

109 hours on type as Captain? Non-issue for me. The busted checkrides does give me pause, but seeing as I don't know details about these, can't really comment further.

Ultimately, he pulled back on the yoke instead of pushing forward at a critical time.

Why? Did Colgan's training emphasize minimizing altitude loss? This would normally make sense in most situations, but not all. Under stress in a potential life-and-death situation without much time to troubleshoot, you'd revert back to whatever training instilled in you. So see why I'm wondering about the company training program's focus in this area...

What's telling here is that that not one, but two senior people overseeing the training program left on their own for reasons purportedly unrelated to 3407. 109 hours may be a red herring in the larger scheme of things.

Will be interesting to see where the NTSB leads this week's hearing starting tomorrow.

[Edited 2009-05-11 12:59:22]


DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
25 Revelation : I wonder if she realized the mistake the captain made, or not.
26 SEPilot : I suspect any competent pilot would have, but there would have been no time to recover. Also, it would have come down to a wrestling match, and since
27 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Maybe the answer lies in this related article? Buffalo Crash Sparks Debate Over Use of Cockpit Recordings Wasn't idle chit-chat a factor in the crash
28 Silentbob : If I recall he had started his transition to the Q400 about six weeks prior to the crash, that's not a lot of time to acquire more hours. When I hear
29 Type-Rated : Interestingly enough both pilots on UA 553 had previously failed proficiency checks and passed upon retaking them a number of times. And this was anot
30 Haggis79 : I think it was in LEX, if I remember correctly.... well, maybe in this case the number was too low....
31 Flighty : I would like to think Colgan is fit for Q400 operations. The facts of this episode so far, suggests they are not. Sorry. It's wasn't exactly Chelsey
32 MSPNWA : Now I'm not one to know if that's Colgan's procedure (seems possible to me), but I do know that if one pilot is inexperienced in the type, the pilot
33 Mpdpilot : " target=_blank>http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/...t315/ Very good read thanks for the post. Yes this might have been the case for IOE(initatial
34 Post contains links LoneStarMike : After a quick search, idle chit-chat was also a factor in the DL 1141 crash. LoneStarMike
35 Adam42185 : I think hes referring to a completely different accident, but I do remember the Comair flight in LEX that the NTSB said that conversation not pertine
36 Falcon84 : That's if you take the story as gospel. I didn't know the WSJ was into concluding what happens in airplane crashes. I'll wait for the NTSB report to
37 Haggis79 : I didn't want to express doubts on what you had said earlier, I just tried to add to it... sorry if that came over wrong! Yes, I was aware of that. S
38 Toltommy : If I'm not mistaken, DL1141 brought us the Sterile Cockpit rule. If the Comair pilots chose to inore the rules, well.... Good point, well taken. But
39 LoneStarMike : OK. I misunderstood. Here's another excerpt from airdisaster.com regarding DL 1141. That makes it sound like the rule was already in effect. I guess
40 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's the only thing that really jumped out as "typical media drivel". Other than that, it was a pretty on-point article. Also with the Comair crash
41 Lincoln : Wow... seems pretty damning. I have to admit that I'm not really sure what the "normal" for checkrides is but I would have thought that a failed check
42 Toltommy : Sure does. Wonder if "sterile cockpit" was a company rule that became a FAR following the DL accident.
43 Post contains links LoneStarMike : My take on it was that it was a FAR before the accident. edited to add: Sterile Cockpit became a FAR in 1981 according to this: The Sterile Cockpit L
44 F9Animal : " target=_blank>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1242....html Oh come on! This is not breaking news, and nothing new to this industry. The Q400 is sti
45 Yflyer : I'd have to look up the flight number, but I believe it was an Eastern Airlines crash at CLT in the late 1970s that resulted in the Sterile Cockpit r
46 BeechNut : Yes but given the way airline seniority works it's highly unlikely that they would have ended up in the left seat with only 109 hours on type. You ca
47 Yflyer : I can't seem to edit my last post, but I was thinking of Eastern flight 212, in 1974. I had the year slightly off.
48 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Eastern Airlines Flight 212 September 11, 1974 LoneStarMike
49 Okie : Stall training is an early on experience for all GA pilots. Most good pilots practice stalls from time to time and especially when switching types. Th
50 Adam42185 : This seems ridiculous to me. How could you NOT practice stalls in a sim? Thats just asking for trouble!
51 NIKV69 : I don't think it will change much from what we already know. That this crash was due to many errors made by the crew and that it was their actions th
52 Aviateur : I am not indicting all regionals and their pilots. I never implied such a thing. And I have, in my articles, reminded people that major airline crews
53 Post contains links Adam42185 : just found this on CNN http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/ heres an interesting excerpt from the article: " The Journal’s report said Colgan had not provi
54 Okie : According to the article Colgan training never got close to the stick shaker in the Sim. They may have discussed recovery but never practiced recover
55 Aviateur : Training for a stick-pusher emergency? Here's a question: What do you do when you are in an automobile driving towards a brick wall at 50 miles-per-h
56 LTBEWR : Like a number of accidents involving aircraft, there may be in play several factors that came together. Captain with limited type experience, modest o
57 Adam42185 : I see your point in that obviously you hit the brake... however, in this case, the pilot did not respond in the proper manner. Had he been exposed to
58 Haggis79 : well, given the ongoing push to make everything in aviation even cheaper and cheaper, I would not be suprised if all of the regionals and even most o
59 TTailSteve : Most folks have already convicted both pilots which is very unfair. I would very much like to read the CVRs. Its very possible the Capt and/ or the FO
60 Pellegrine : If I were a family member of a dead loved one due to this ineptness and stupidity I'd be consulting various attorneys. I'd want at least USD 10 millio
61 727forever : This is industry standard. The stall practiced in the simulator is an approach to stall as is required. This is when speed is slowed to the shaker, a
62 Luv2cattlecall : What's not to believe? They simply wanted to go join Skybus's first CEO in helping him write that book he was working on....you know, the one that he
63 Wjcandee : This investigation has leaked like a seive, and plenty of previous stuff has turned out to be wrong. That said, there isn't anything really new in the
64 727forever : Very good post. I really can't say it better myself. 727forever
65 Post contains links Zrb2 : Now a NY newspaper comes out with this story about flirtatious behavior on the CVR. I realize it's the NY Post but wow, they have really thrown this p
66 DingDong : As you yourself put it so well: it's the NY Post. They've got to sell papers -- they're not a charity. This is the easiest, cheapest, and quickest wa
67 Sxf24 : The Q400 is not susceptable to an ice-induced tail-plane stall, which is what's speculated the flight crew was responding to. If Colgan/Pinnacle had
68 Post contains links Zrb2 : Here is the full CVR transcript. I read it and actually started to feel sick knowing what was about to happen to those people. http://www.ntsb.gov/Doc
69 Revelation : From the transcript, there sure was a lot of chit-chat in the cockpit. Also it sounds like they descended as early as possible because the FO had sin
70 Cubsrule : Given that the airline is the one that gets sued when something like this accident happens, it seems like it would behoove them NOT to rely on pilots
71 Revelation : It seems they did, via classroom training vs. simulator training. Literally, the jury will decide if that was enough or not.
72 Comorin : Mods - as the discussion now moves to the NTSB hearings, could we perhaps have a new aptly titled 'official' thread? Thanks
73 Cubsrule : I'm not an airline pilot, but I do know that-- both inside and outside of flying-- people usually learn better by doing. Given the availability of si
74 Post contains links FrmrCAPCADET : http://www.seattlepi.com/national/1152ap_us_plane_into_home.html, an Associated Press story. It would be interesting to hear from a pilot regarding so
75 PhilSquares : Why don't we just get rid of simulators all together. After all, pilots could read the FCOM (not POH) and get everything they need! Obviously, you kn
76 Cubsrule : Agreed. At the same time, though, I feel like a line has to be drawn somewhere, doesn't it? It's not possible to simulate everything that could possi
77 PhilSquares : Agreed, but there are some big things the crews need to see. For example, on the 320 there is a dual engine flameout, on the 744 we do a loss of all
78 N62NA : Hmmm. I've been trying to get to the NTSB website for the past hour but it appears to be down. Perhaps all the a.net fans have overloaded their server
79 Cubsrule : I guess, then, I'm wondering whether you (or the other professionals here) think that the stick pusher is a "big thing the crews need to see."
80 Revelation : Sure, and if every line in the manual was trained in the sim, many other incidents could be avoided as well. So, are you saying it's not reasonable t
81 Zrb2 : sorry if i offend anyone- but just reading through the CVR without seeing any media interpretations i see a lot of faults here even as a "non aviator"
82 PA515 : Had the same problem but was able to download it from the foxnews website. PA515
83 PhilSquares : Well, considering I have almost 23, 000 hours and I have never been exposed to a stick pusher, yes I do consider it a big deal. To be honest, I have
84 Spacecadet : I felt the same - it's always kind of disturbing reading crash CVR transcripts the first time, but there usually isn't such foreshadowing of what's t
85 Revelation : Most of the conversations were about career vs. lifestyle choices. I don't see where he was hitting on her as suggested by the nypost.com article.
86 A318 : Reading that transcript really hit home. I was very close with both flight attendants working that flight. It's crazy to read the announcements they m
87 Dragon6172 : The CVR says little about what they did to cope. Engine power increases, the flaps were put up, and there was talk retracting the gear. What part of
88 Zrb2 : The part that leads me to believe they could not cope is when the airplane crashed into that house and everyone died. No one has shown evidence of a
89 YYZYYT : Maybe it's just me, but isn't it the case that a newly promoted captain will (should?) have lots of hours as an FO... so that they may be new to comm
90 ULMFlyer : I know total time does not necessarily correlate with stick and rudder skills, but I found it noteworthy (though not relevant to the accident) that t
91 Haggis79 : well, or the chatter happened exactly because they were feeling discomfort.... if so, than it'd have been a very human reaction.
92 Dragon6172 : Yes I would, because there is really nothing damning in the transcript about their histories. There was some extra chatter below 10000 feet, but that
93 NIKV69 : Are you kidding? In some cases this may be true but when you are flying into icing conditions on approach I don't want the people flying me to be tal
94 Wjcandee : He DID have lots of hours as an f/o and as a captain -- just in a different aircraft.
95 Post contains links KPDX : Sorry if its been posted but I found this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM6_HUUPV0s
96 Wjcandee : That's going to end up being a contributing cause. Fact is, the CVR is pretty useless otherwise unless paired with the FDR, which I'd like to see. I
97 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Here is the NTSB animation: http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2009/Buffalo-NY/AnimationDescription.htm Power goes to close to idle at 22:16:02 at 183 kts IAS
98 Haggis79 : I'm not familiar with the A/P of the Dash-8.... but is it possible they thought they had autothrottle enabled when in fact they didn't?
99 DualQual : There is no requirement to be in the right seat of an aircraft before checking out as a Captain. Additionally on new types if everyone had to check o
100 ULMFlyer : No, sir. Simply because the Q400, despite having FADEC, has no autothrottle.
101 Post contains links LoneStarMike : FWIW, remember the night of the crash when the ATC tapes surfaced and everyone was listening? This was maybe an hour or two after the crash. I rememb
102 Okie : It has been my experience that once you start "dirtying" the airframe additional power is required at some point as you bleed off speed. I could not
103 727forever : This concerns me greatly. The Capt called for flaps 15 and was slowing to the approach speed based upon having flaps 15. The approach speed was calcu
104 F9Animal : After reading the transcript, I just can't imagine the last seconds. This part of the transcript sent chills up my spine. 22:12:05.0 HOT-2 I've never
105 Spacecadet : Well, yes, there is a possibly logical reason: the wings were covered with ice. I guess we don't know that yet for a fact, and it probably wasn't the
106 Boeing12345 : I believe that it has been discussed that the idea of a tailplane stall would not activate the shaker/pusher. Wing stall would activate the pusher/sh
107 Alias1024 : He called for flaps 15 a little late given how rapidly the aircraft was decelerating. There's a couple seconds delay before the FO moves the handle,
108 727forever : The 138 approach speed that I quoted was from an article that I read some time back. This speed was with the icing correction made, so the non-icing
109 727forever : It certainly sounds as though he was rather pre-occupied trying to figure out what was going on and what to do about it. From all of that talk about
110 Cubsrule : ...which (again) begs the question of what the root cause of the poor airmanship was. If it was fatigue, all the training in the world wouldn't have
111 727forever : I went back and read the official CVR transcript that the NTSB put out. After more context her statements aren't as troubling because she had earlier
112 Haggis79 : has it been established that they really thought it was a tail stall or are you just guessing?
113 727forever : No, no. As I stated my speculation only. This thing will come out in due time.
114 Post contains links DingDong : If the NTSB site is still tough to get to, you can download the various NTSB-released public documents (PDF files) here: http://www.buffalonews.com/53
115 DingDong : I still don't clearly know for sure, but what the NTSB released or discussed today was pretty interesting. Apologies; I've read through this long thr
116 PhilSquares : It doesn't make sense on several issues. First, the FO retracted the flaps on her own. It was uncommanded and she even announced it after the fact. T
117 Alias1024 : Although it can't be ruled out, I doubt that the captain was attempting to recover from what he perceived to be a tailplane stall. I think this captai
118 PITrules : You made the most relevant point in this entire thread IMHO. Having gone through numerous training events on several different aircraft at different
119 PITrules : Bingo; I think this accident will hopefully put a focus on this issue.
120 KAUSpilot : The reason for the whole accdient is simple: Colgan is a bottom of the barrel ultra cheap operator even by regional standards. Everyone in the industr
121 D L X : Sounds almost libelous. If "everyone in the industry knows this" why is it in reply 126?
122 Dragon6172 : I think a bit much is being made of this when taken out of context. She clearly says her co-workers are complaining about not being upgraded yet, but
123 D L X : Jerk of the Day: Charles "Chuck" Schumer, who on Morning Joe this morning (when they were already hysterical about the 24 year old woman flying the pl
124 Okie : That was the point I was trying to make. Must not have came out that way. I was just trying to put some reason or thought process behind why the F/O
125 Mir : A 4kt knot gap between approach speed and shaker activation seems pretty small to me. Is 138 what it really should have been? The captain was oddly q
126 PhilSquares : It is not understandable! In the context of any 121 operation it is a very severe mistake! It will kill you! I also disagree with your statement abou
127 D L X : Two questions then for my curiousity: 1) Why does the plane let you do this? 2) Would extending the flaps further (assuming not already at full flaps
128 BAC111 : Well put, D L X. I was thinking the same thing in light of this country's recent safety record. Besides, what good does such a comment do? Does it co
129 PhilSquares : It would really depend on their position and the thrust available. On the 727, for instance, normal landing flaps are 30 degrees. However, you there
130 Silentbob : I wish more low time FOs had that attitude. I've seen way too many that feel they are ready to sit in the left seat before they hit 1000 hours.
131 CYAsutomo : Well, my job doesn't put people's lives in my hands, and even I don't go to work right after a red-eye following a day of strenuous exercise. If I we
132 Cubsrule : Certainly not. The trouble is that no one in the industry really talks about this issue because it implicates a couple if valuable privileges of bein
133 Okie : On the transcript at 22:05:29.5 Captain requests speed bugs at 18,14 flaps 15. (118kts, 114kts, flaps 15) So the for some reason either the captain wa
134 727forever : I made note of this in an earlier statement as well. I never heard them make any further mention of speed bugs. So at 130 kias in his mind had no rea
135 Aviators99 : Has there been any talk about why the speed got so low in the first place? If it was the GS problem on the ILS that has been previously referred to, I
136 Cubsrule : I'm not sure about that. Certainly, when a pilot commutes, a record exists of that commute (just like a record exists of a revenue passenger's trip).
137 Cubsrule : Again, I'm not saying that should be the rule. I've never been an airline pilot, and those who have been probably have a far better sense for what ru
138 Lowrider : There is a third group as well. Pilots who moved to their base at their own expense, then were displaced from that base through no fault of their own
139 KAUSpilot : Probably because most of the people replying are not in the US regional industry and therefore have no real knowledge of its inner workings. I have m
140 PhilSquares : I am an airline pilot and I have commuted. I can assure you, the airlines don't want it. It would force them to increase staffing. The idea you have,
141 Cubsrule : I already mentioned that airlines would not like such policies, actually... As I've said once, if these long commutes are a problem (and some at leas
142 727forever : What about me? I've lived where I was based three times in my career. The two times the airlines went out of business and the third time I was displa
143 Mcg : As a non-pilot what I don't understand is how the training program could not include simulator training on stall recovery and the stick pusher system.
144 PITrules : You have got to be kidding? I think 50 dead people might disagree about the "need for it." In a perfect world, perhaps you are correct....why practic
145 Spacecadet : They were apparently *taught* how to react to the stick pusher/shaker, according to Colgan at least, but they just never had simulator practice on it
146 D L X : A little devils advocate: 1) have you ever pumped your brakes when your wheels lock up? Do you know how to? Do you think you would in the situation?
147 PhilSquares : But, the FAA doesn't have any jurisdiction. They mandate crew rest, and you must have the minimum crew rest. If you want to increase the minimum to 1
148 Cubsrule : I'm not sure it's all the airlines' fault. It takes two to set a market price: buyer and seller. If there weren't so many people chomping at the bit
149 PITrules : Huh? You're the one who suggested not training beyond an initial buffet is adaquate. Perhaps you quoted a tiny snippet of my entire point, which then
150 Haggis79 : no, yes in theory, and no yes, yes and yes - but that's because I trained is at a driver's safety training conducted by BMW and my local newspaper. I
151 Cubsrule : Aren't these two sentences contradictory?
152 PhilSquares : No, I didn't quote anything out of context. Let me rephrase what I said. We train for CFIT. We don't fly into the ground, but we react to the EGWPS.
153 ULMFlyer : I think this is only true of the pusher, but they do experience the shaker in the sim. This is the relevant quote in the WSJ: And the FAA approves of
154 PITrules : How about an understanding of the aircraft's stall characteristics? How about differentiating the differences in recovery techniques between a stick
155 Alias1024 : If the shaker is going off and the controls suddenly snatch forward to lower the nose, there shouldn't be any doubt in a pilot's mind as to what is go
156 PhilSquares : Are we talking about a 121 environment? You realize the stall is only demonstrated in the initial certification of the aircraft? How would we set up
157 FrmrCAPCADET : Many of us make a point when we get a new vehicle and it snows for the first time taking advantage of the first safe place to push the car/truck to i
158 727forever : Phil, I know you flew the 727 & 747 and I absolutely believe that you never used wing anit-ice. It just wasn't a problem on these wings. However, the
159 Post contains images PITrules : I assumed the simulators are programmed to have these characteristics. If my assumption is incorrect, then I stand corrected. We now do full upset re
160 FlyASAGuy2005 : Very good question indeed. From reading the CVR and combing the through little info they have available from the FDR and animation, it seems like the
161 KBUF : I have to politely disagree with that. Capt. Renslow had no idea what to do when the plane stalled, and as a result, pushed up on the controls instea
162 Alias1024 : First, you've got that backwards. He pulled back. Second, if the recovery procedure had been flown correctly once the shaker started, then the plane
163 Scrubbsywg : can someone clear some questions/assumptions i have up? 1) Stall speeds are calculated based on conditions, plane, etc. by the pilots and input into
164 Multimark : I hadn't realized US regional pay was so bad! CTV compared Colgan wages with the only Canadian Q400 operator, Porter (all 1st year): Colgan Pilot $33k
165 Post contains links Hywel : Unrelated so don't flame me, but a Colgan Dash 8-400 just lost one of its wheels on landing at Buffalo. http://avherald.com/h?article=4198ce09&opt=513
166 Gofly : Chaps, Given that this thread has largely drifted away from its original topic, I am now locking it. Please feel free to start another thread to conti
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