Flyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4949 posts, RR: 52 Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5048 times:
I was trying to compile a list of international markets that used to be flown from Canada - and have since been terminated. I was going through old timetables...I've tried to sort by airline - but i'm going to need some help
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23221 posts, RR: 23 Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4789 times:
Royal Air Maroc operated YMX/YUL-JFK-CMN for quite a while before changing to nonstop YUL-CMN. They had 5th freeom rights on the transborder sector.
If memory correct, MS also operated YUL-JFK-CAI for a while with 5th freedom rights.
TG operated BKK-SEA-YYZ for couple of years in the '90s or thereabouts. There was also a stop somewhere between BKK-SEA but forget where (either Japan or possibly TPE). TG had 5th freedom rights SEA-YYZ. They based an A310-300 in SEA just to operate the SEA-YYZ-SEA legs. Like most things TG does, it was no doubt hugely unprofitable.
NZ operated YVR-HNL-AKL for a while in the 1990s or so. It was just once a week if memory correct. Both NZ and QF dropped YVR when CP made a 3-way codeshare deal with NZ/QF to feed their flights at HNL. That also resulted in CP dropping service to SYD/AKL, with SYD only resumed shortly before the AC merger. CP flights YVR-HNL and YYZ-HNL interconnected with QF and NZ flights to AKL/SYD during that joint operation period.
You're also missing FJ (Air Pacific) that dropped the YVR-HNL sector of their YVR-HNL-NAN route a year or so ago.
Not sure if your intention is to go back as far as CP Air and Canadian Airlines but you are missing all their suspended international routes. Some that come to mind (only mentioning those that aren't operated today by AC or other carriers):
YVR-HND/NRT-HKG (for the HND-HKG 5th freedom sector, operated before CP acquired DC-10-30ER with enough range for YVR-HKG nonstop)
YYC-NRT, operated about once a week for year or so sometime in the 1990s. Possibly also YEG-NRT once a week. They were en route stops a day or two a week on the YYZ-NRT route.
YVR-LIM (flights continued to SCL-EZE). Prior to the YVR-LIM (and beyond) nonstops which ony began afterDC-10-30s had been introduced, CP used DC-8s (and previously Britannias and DC-6Bs) YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL-EZE, and at times in latter period of DC-8 service operated YVR-MEX-ACA-LIM (ACA stop was to permit increased payload from MEX to LIM as there were weight restrictions on MEX-LIM nonstop sector due to the 7,500 elevation of MEX). During the latter years of YVR-LIM nonstop DC-10 service, another DC-10 operated YYZ-LIM where it connected with the YVR-LIM-SCL-EZE flight and transferred passengers going to SCL-EZE. The YYZ-LIM DC-10 then sat in LIM all day until the YVR flight made it's trip to EZE and back, where SCL/EZE passengers to YYZ again transferred and both DC-10s departed about the same time, one to YVR and one to YYZ.
YYZ-MXP (sometimes continued to ATH and when CP briefly served TLV flights operated YYZ-MXP-ATH-TLV). MXP was also served as tag-on from AMS in later years with 5th freedom rights AMS-MXP (CP Air never had 5th freedom rights on the MXP-ATH-TLV sectors so by the time those DC-8-63s got to TLV the aircraft was almost empty. I flew YYZ-TLV on CP during the period they served TLV, sometime around 1976, and only about 25 passengers were going all the way to TLV. Mind you, it was January. I remember that trip as in both directions MXP was fogged-in and both flights had to divert to GOA. Fog at MXP was a major problem in those days before today's technology permitted landing in much lower visibility.
ATH was also served as a tag-on from AMS for a while.
YYZ-YUL/YMX-LIS (probably also nonstop YYZ-L:IS, can't remember)
YYZ-YUL-SMA (Santa Maria, Azores...that dates back to the 1960s when there were many immigrants to Canada from the Azores. Flights using Britannias and then DC-8s continued to LIS and/or MAD).
YVR-HKG-MNL (for the HKG-MNL tag-on sector operated by CP 747-400s briefly).
YVR-HKG-BKK (for the HKG-BKK tag-on sector, also operated by CP, initially with DC-10-30 and for last couple of years with 747-400, a big money loser. Aircraft overnighted BKK, mostly filled with very low-yield 5th freedom HKG-BKK-BKK traffic.
YVR-HNL-NAN-SYD (CP NAN service not yet mentioned).
YVR-HNL-AKL, originally also with a NAN stop, latterly after a long gap with no service, with DC-10s and 747-200s. CP's original service to AKL started around 1952, 3 years after CP inaugurated the first Canada-Australia service in 1949 (CP's first international route, followed by YVR-HND-HKG a few months later).
Apart from YVR-MEX and YYZ-MEX (not mentioned as they have service today by other carriers), CP Air also had scheduled service for a while in the 1970s and/or /80s to ACA/GDL/PVR. I recall flying a DC-8-63 YVR-MEX-ACA, and a DC-8-43 PVR-GDL-YYZ.
Yes SK operated YYZ-CPH nonstop with 767-300ERs for a couple of years (if that) in the late '80s or early '90s. It was soon after T3 opened at YYZ as I used that flight once. CP codeshared on those SK flights.
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5): Quoting Oly720man (Reply 4):
How far back do you want to go? BA used to fly MAN-YYZ with VC10s then B707s in the 1970s (if my rusty memory is correct.)
Thought BA's MAN service routed through PIK as well. Can remember stopping at both PIK and MAN one Easter enroute LHR. 707-420 IIRC.
BA also operated 757-200s YYZ-JFK-BHX for a couple of years in the '90s. It was one of the first scheduled transatlantic services using the 757. BA had 5th freedom rights YYZ-JFK.
Did Swissair operate YYZ-ZRH nonstop? It was my recollection that their flights stopped at YUL/YM|X before they dropped YYZ service, but possibly they had introduced nonstops towards the end of their existence. I flew SR half a dozen times YYZ-ZRH on DC-10s, 747-200/300s, and MD-11s and always recall a stop at (in those days) YMX.
By "International" assume you are excluding the USA as there are obviously quite a few transborder routes operated at one time that no longer have any direct service.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23221 posts, RR: 23 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4726 times:
Can also add MH KUL-YVR to the former routes list (forget where they stopped, possibly TPE). MH dropped YVR in January 1999 in response to the Asian financial crisis. I think CP codeshared on the MH flights. They used 747-400s.
And don't forget AC's YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN route, AC's first service to India, and only service to SIN. Used both L1011-500s and 747s.
AC also served GVA as a tag-on from CDG (with no 5th freedom rights) a couple of times a week with both L1011s and 747s for a few years in the 1980s.
And before AC got rights to FRA, their only destination in Germany was DUS, served with both Super Constellations and DC-8s. Didn't AC also very briefly serve Berlin in more recent years (1990s or so) using 767s?
Also (ref. my other reply above) remembered another former CP Air route, YYC-MEX.. One of the YVR-MEX-LIM-SCL-EZE DC-8s stopped in YYC once a week, but if memory correct only southbound. I remember that one clearly as a YYC-MEX CP DC-8-43 was the first flight I was bumped off when flying nonrev, sometime in 1970.
GuyBetsy1 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 837 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4247 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9): Can also add MH KUL-YVR to the former routes list (forget where they stopped, possibly TPE). MH dropped YVR in January 1999 in response to the Asian financial crisis. I think CP codeshared on the MH flights. They used 747-400s.
No, that wasn't the reason.
While CP codeshared the flight with MH, CP was only allowed to carry passengers from KUL to YVR but not from TPE to YVR and v.v. CP also had no traffic right (even though MH did) between KUL and TPE. As MH had no brand identity in Canada, the majority of people would prefer to book under CP's flight number so as to earn Canadian Plus points. The timing of the flights also meant that people couldn't connect onwards to other cities in Asia without overnighting in KUL. The reverse was also problematic as the flight left too early from KUL to connect from other cities.
We also have to remember the demise of SQ's first transatlantic flight that flew SIN-VIE-AMS-YYZ with much fanfare. SQ had full fifth freedom rights along all ports. Until AC came along and forced the Canadian govt to restrict the 5th freedom rights. SQ can serve YYZ on the condition that it did not pick up any passengers from either VIE and AMS enroute to/from Canada. AC says that SQ was 'stealing' its passengers. Funny AC said that considering that it neither flew to VIE or AMS at the time and it certainly didn't point any fingers to KLM then either.
SQ and AC's relationship has been frosty every since. Even so now that both are in the Star Alliance, and SQ codeshares on AC flights via LHR to Canadian cities. But I have never seen or know anyone who actually has flown on such a fare.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23221 posts, RR: 23 Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4083 times:
Quoting Jayce (Reply 14): I vaguely remember LOT serving WAW-YVR at one point I think around 1986. This may have just been a charter service for Expo '86, hopefully somebody can confirm this.
Yes, charter only. AY also operated HEL-YVR charters at one time. I am assuming this thread is not intended to cover charters or there would be many more routes.
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 19): I was wondering if EL AL still has two flights to YYZ one continuing on to LAX coming from TLV?
All LY flights TLV-LAX-TLV have been nonstop with 777s for the past couple of years.
Quoting Brilondon (Reply 17): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
By "International" assume you are excluding the USA as there are obviously quite a few trans-border routes operated at one time that no longer have any direct service.
I thought about that myself, but came to the conclusion that most of the destinations in the U.S. are still served in one from or another today.
A few transborder sectors I can think of which had service in the past but no longer do:
YVR-GEG (the original Frontier Airlines, on a YVR-GEG-DEN route, and later NW on a YVR-GEG-MSP route. Neither wanted to stop in GEG but that was the only way they could obtain access to YVR in pre-deregulation days when YVR-DEN and YVR-MSP were not covered by the US-Canada bilateral).
YYC-GEG (Hughes Airwest and predecessors Air West and West Coast Airlines dating back to the 1950s, and in more recent years briefly operated by AC Jazz).
YYC-GTF (Western Airlines)
YQL-GTF (Western Airlines half a century ago, and somewhat more recently and very briefly, Time Air)
YWG-FAR (NW; believe that was NW's first international route, intermediate stop on YWG-FAR-MSP route).
YWG-MOT and YWG-BIS (the original Frontier Airlines for a while in the 1970s, stops en route to DEN).
YWG-DLH (North Central; at one time they had a 6-stop Convair 580 YWG-ORD; first stop was DLH).
YEG-ANC (NW operated MSP-YEG-ANC for a while, one of the rare routes -- also the Pan Am route below -- with an intermediate stop in another country on a flight between two US points).
JNU-YXY-FAI (Pan Am; their only scheduled service to Canada if memory correct; their 1963 timetable shows a daily SEA-KTN-JNU 707,with continuing service on a DC-6B JNU-YXY-FAI twice a week. That multi-stop was in addition to a daily SEA-FAI 707 nonstop.)
SEA-YKA (Horizon, briefly operated a year or so ago before being dropped; seasonal service catering to ski traffic).
YVR-SJC (Air Cal, then AA after the Air Cal merger until AA closed their SJC hub; believe YVR-SJC was AA's first YVR service).
YYZ-ONT and YYZ-SJC (AC operated those California routes with A319s fairly briefly around 2000/2001 or so).
AC has started and stopped a few other transborder routes over the years. Two that come to mind are YYZ-SLC and YYZ-MSY).