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Aus-NZ 'domestic' Flights: August Announcement  
User currently offlineQF744 From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 415 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

This morning in Auckland, the New Zealand Prime Minister said an announcement will be made in August regarding Australia-New Zealand flights becoming effectively "domestic" with reduced immigration and customs on flights between the two countries.

Finally!

Here is the link to a story:

http://www.spicenews.com.au/2009/05/...vel-Special-Report/NLPFHMWGMI.html

From the PM:

“We want to cut red tape at the border,” he said. “When I visited Australia earlier this year, Prime Minister Rudd and I agreed to streamline the customs and immigration at international airports for trans-Tasman flights.

“Our thinking is that the more we can get Trans-Tasman travel to feel like a domestic flight, the more Australians will come to New Zealand.

“I expect we’ll be able to make some announcements about this when I head to Australia again in August, but it’s fair to say things are progressing well,” Key said.


IT'S ALL ABOUT THE UPPER DECK
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5188 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5888 times:

Perhaps it will be no customs, faster immigration liek that the D sticker holders get now??

User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Would this include PER?

User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5857 times:
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Quoting Ben175 (Reply 2):
Would this include PER?

why would you expect PER to be exclued ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5846 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
Quoting Ben175 (Reply 2):
Would this include PER?

why would you expect PER to be exclued ?

someone had to say it........ Have you ever been to PER?  duck  j/k



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineJQFlightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5835 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 4):
someone had to say it........ Have you ever been to PER? j/k

hahaha yes it is actually faster and cheaper in some cases to fly to NZ then what it is to PER haha



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5819 times:

I dont see how this can happen ... Aust has very strict immigration rules, so I dont see how they can alow everyone in NZ to scoot to Aust without immigration controls..


They should look at setting up US - Canadian style of pre-clearence posting Aussie Immigration in AKL

I dont think they can ever have true "domestic" flights


User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5790 times:



Quoting Cospn (Reply 6):
I dont see how this can happen ... Aust has very strict immigration rules, so I dont see how they can alow everyone in NZ to scoot to Aust without immigration controls..

If you have an New Zealand passport you can work and live in Australia & v.v. without any issues.

I guess that immigration between Australia and New Zealand could become like border controls between EU countries.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5629 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5771 times:



Quoting Cospn (Reply 6):
I dont see how this can happen ... Aust has very strict immigration rules, so I dont see how they can alow everyone in NZ to scoot to Aust without immigration controls..

What's so hard? I presume we will set up a mini-Schengen(sp?) treaty of our own. Oz/NZ citizens already enjoy complete travel/residence freedom between the two countries as EU citizens do between member states. It does mean some harmonisation of immigration rules into the two countries, something that should be achievable, although I would have thought August was a tad optimistic.

Gemuser



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User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5721 times:



Quoting Cospn (Reply 6):
I dont see how this can happen ... Aust has very strict immigration rules, so I dont see how they can alow everyone in NZ to scoot to Aust without immigration controls..

NZ also has very strict immigration rules also so the two countries are very similar ...



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5672 times:



Quoting Cospn (Reply 6):
I dont see how this can happen ... Aust has very strict immigration rules, so I dont see how they can alow everyone in NZ to scoot to Aust without immigration controls..

. . . um, how do you think that we in NZ feel about everyone in Australia coming to NZ without immigration controls?!

Yes, as Gemuser said, it's not all that difficult - they just have to decide what controls they're going to harmonise and what controls they're going to drop altogether, plus of course, a few mutual concerns ironed out over security. I lived in Amsterdam at the time the Schengen agreement came in, and it was really just a matter of changing the airport around to segregate the non-Schengen traffic from the Schengen traffic (though it was already pretty segregated anyway) and moving some of the immigration control posts to different locations. And then travel to Schengen states was an absolute breeze.

Will be interesting to see how they deal with it at AKL. The imaginative way would be to have passport control halfway down the main pier, with OZ flights using the near gates and non-OZ flights the far gates. If you were really wanting to get best use out of the terminal, you'd have a means of shifting passport control up and down the pier depending on the time of day and relative demand. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineAviationfreak From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5661 times:



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 7):
If you have an New Zealand passport you can work and live in Australia & v.v. without any issues.

I guess that immigration between Australia and New Zealand could become like border controls between EU countries.



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 8):
What's so hard? I presume we will set up a mini-Schengen(sp?) treaty of our own. Oz/NZ citizens already enjoy complete travel/residence freedom between the two countries as EU citizens do between member states. It does mean some harmonisation of immigration rules into the two countries, something that should be achievable, although I would have thought August was a tad optimistic.

In fact the agreemants between Oz and NZ goes further than EU cooperation. They share more or less the same health care system. Any kiwi can go to a hospital in Oz for treatment in case he lives there or happened to be there like he's going to a hospital in NZ and vice versa. Am I right?

Sander



I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

Question: how will AKL deal with transit passengers? They will surely have to go through immigration during their stop in AKL; otherwise there will be a mix of passengers on each Tasman flight, some of whom will not have to go through immigration in Australia and some of whom will. How will they deal with that kind of issue at the arrival port? Will the present very straightforward morning transit stop in AKL for traffic from the Americas heading for Australia become a scrum of people going through "Australasian" immigration? Or will they have a reliable means of "sorting" passengers on arrival in (say) ADL into those originating in NZ and those originating in the Americas? If the former, it might be a significant competitive disadvantage to Air NZ and its efforts to capture market share on the North America-Australia market.

If you're a domestic passnger on a domestic sector of an international flight in NZ or Australia right now, how do they handle the fact that you may not have your passport and may not need to go through immigration? Or do you have to have your passport to board such flights?



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5629 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5519 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
Question: how will AKL deal with transit passengers? They will surely have to go through immigration during their stop in AKL; otherwise there will be a mix of passengers on each Tasman flight, some of whom will not have to go through immigration in Australia and some of whom will. How will they deal with that kind of issue at the arrival port?

The simplest way would be exactly as the Schengen nations do, you get let into the Schengen area at your first port of arrival. So I assume that all nonOZ/Kiwi citizens will be admitted to OZ/NZ in AKL and then won't have to go thru C&I in Oz. Similarly pax on EK418 for CHC will go thru C&I in SYD and none in CHC.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
If the former, it might be a significant competitive disadvantage to Air NZ and its efforts to capture market share on the North America-Australia market.

Not really, if the Kiwi C&I are as efficient as their Oz counterparts (& in my exprience they are pretty similar) then the time taken in AKL gets made up by avoiding the international arrival scrum in SYD(or wherever) each morning.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
If you're a domestic passnger on a domestic sector of an international flight in NZ or Australia right now, how do they handle the fact that you may not have your passport and may not need to go through immigration? Or do you have to have your passport to board such flights?

Don't know about NZ, but in Oz you present your government issued photo id (drivers license usually) at checkin, get a big D sticker on you boarding pass, with your id details on it, you go thru outwards Immigration to your plane, do your domestic sector on an international flight, then on arrival you go thru inwards Immigration, using your D sticker boarding pass, collect your checked baggage and surrender your D boarding pass to by pass Customs and away you go, out of the terminal.

Gemuser



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User currently offlinePewpew320 From New Zealand, joined Mar 2009, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Also, for immigration NZ and Australian passport holders already share queues in SYD and IIRC in AKL too.

User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5302 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Don't know about NZ, but in Oz you present your government issued photo id (drivers license usually) at checkin, get a big D sticker on you boarding pass, with your id details on it, you go thru outwards Immigration to your plane, do your domestic sector on an international flight, then on arrival you go thru inwards Immigration, using your D sticker boarding pass, collect your checked baggage and surrender your D boarding pass to by pass Customs and away you go, out of the terminal.

So this would be the alternative to doing immigration at the first Australasian port of call a la Schengen - the passengers are mixed and separated on arrival by means of the D sticker. Downside is that you still need to go through an immigration queue, even if it is just to flash your drivers' licence and D-sticker at the immigration officer. Foreign nationals would go through normal passport control at the destination port.

Presumably they separate the baggage out and have "domestic" baggage on a different conveyor with free access to "outside"? Or at least free access to the biosecurity check which I assume will not disappear?



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5296 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
If the former, it might be a significant competitive disadvantage to Air NZ and its efforts to capture market share on the North America-Australia market.

Not really, if the Kiwi C&I are as efficient as their Oz counterparts (& in my exprience they are pretty similar) then the time taken in AKL gets made up by avoiding the international arrival scrum in SYD(or wherever) each morning.

The downside of this is that it means that you have to handle your bags twice - if coming from North America to Australia, for example, you'd have to wait and pick up your bags at AKL for C&I, and then load the bags on again and have to wait and pick them up a second time at your Australian arrival port. Unless, of course, they do immigration at first port of call, and then customs and biosecurity at the final destination - that might be preferable for both countries, especially in terms of biosecurity. Or they could use the D-sticker approach which would have all processing for transit pax at the final port of arrival and only one "wait" at the baggage conveyor.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5190 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Similarly pax on EK418 for CHC will go thru C&I in SYD and none in CHC.

Well that would be a pain having to do customs in SYD rather than CHC



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

We used to have passport-free travel between Australia and NZ until about 1980. You went through the international terminal at CHC or WLG, filled in departure/arrival cards and officials asked you if you were carrying any cash. You could buy duty free goods. Australia required passports first, and for a couple of years NZ officials did not require to see your passport, but you still went through customs, and your arrival card was read.

If all they do is return to passport-free travel, that will hardly give the savings that Bruce Buchanan thinks can be achieved by making Australia-NZ travel barrier free. I think he is talking about savings on the Fees and Charges rather than the Fare, because the Fare is anything that the airline feels like setting, including fly for free, but you always pay the charges. How many of those charges would disappear if the passport is eliminated? We will still be showing a photo ID.

Making queues for Australia/NZ citizens will not speed things up, because probably 90% of passengers will be Australia/NZ citizens. I do not think they will be reducing biosecurity measures, though you already do throw apple cores into amnesty bins at Australian domestic terminals, and no one would want to smuggle an Australian made salami into NZ, would they?

There are still some questions to be asked - would Trans Tasman flights operate from Domestic terminals, so would AirNZ operate from the CommonUser Domestic Terminal at SYD, which they would have to share with Jetstar and Virgin/Pacific Blue?


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5629 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4938 times:



Quoting Nzrich (Reply 17):
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Similarly pax on EK418 for CHC will go thru C&I in SYD and none in CHC.

Well that would be a pain having to do customs in SYD rather than CHC

Depends, my recent expedience was far more painful in CHC than SYD, both coming and going.

Gemuser



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User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4889 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
Question: how will AKL deal with transit passengers? They will surely have to go through immigration during their stop in AKL; otherwise there will be a mix of passengers on each Tasman flight, some of whom will not have to go through immigration in Australia and some of whom will. How will they deal with that kind of issue at the arrival port?

The simplest way would be exactly as the Schengen nations do, you get let into the Schengen area at your first port of arrival. So I assume that all nonOZ/Kiwi citizens will be admitted to OZ/NZ in AKL and then won't have to go thru C&I in Oz. Similarly pax on EK418 for CHC will go thru C&I in SYD and none in CHC.

That's not quite how Schengen works. You go through passport control (immigration) at the first point of arrival in the Schengen area, but customs is at the final destination. Baggage is through-checked. You don't have to claim it at the first point or arrival in the Schengen area.

For example, if you were booked JFK-LHR-FRA-HEL (UK non-Schengen, Germany and Finland Schengen) with connecting flights all the way, your baggage would be through-checked to HEL. When you arrive in LHR there is no passport control since the UK is not part of the Schengen area. You just go to the connecting gate for your flight to FRA. On arrival FRA (first point of arrival in Schengen) you go through passport control where you enter the Schengen part of the terminal where flights to those 25 countries depart. On arrival in HEL there is no passport control. You claim your bags and go through customs, which in Europe normally means the Red/Green channel procedure. If you have nothing to declare you walk through the green channel with only random spot checks.

Same thing applies in reverse on a routing HEL-FRA-LHR-JFK. Bags would be through-checked HEL-JFK. No passport control at HEL. On arrival FRA you clear passport control when you leave the Schengen area and then proceed to your gate for your JFK flight in the non-Schengen part of the terminal. On arrival JFK you clear US immigration and customs as usual.


User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

I was referring to the many non Aussie or NZ citizens....

They will be allowed to go between the two countries without any checks ???

seems like big trouble waiting to happen, just overstay your visa in NZ and hide out in Aust..


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3207 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4853 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 12):
you're a domestic passnger on a domestic sector of an international flight in NZ or Australia right now, how do they handle the fact that you may not have your passport and may not need to go through immigration? Or do you have to have your passport to board such flights?

The Big D sticker!

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 15):
Presumably they separate the baggage out and have "domestic" baggage on a different conveyor with free access to "outside"? Or at least free access to the biosecurity check which I assume will not disappear?

Well one way of seperating those passengers would be to have barcodes on the "d" stickers... at the time the sticker is issued your fingerprint could also be scanned. When arriving all pax in the common area could simply have their barcode scanned and then their index finger and if their fingerprint matches up with the barcode they're simply let through. All other pax would be required to go thru full customs.

It may however just be simplier to switch these flights to the domestic terminals with clearence at your first point of entry, with the D sticker being used for pax on flights that for whever reason need to depart from an international terminal (I'm thinking the EK ones or say QF 25... or maybe even NZ's widebody services). What it also could mean is say NZ's 744 services could depart Aussie domestic Terminals, and arrive at AKL international... before continuing to America (same with the former QF 25) whilest Emirates could arrive at Aussie international terminals and depart NZ' domestic terminals.

Lots of options. The easiest is probably to use Domestic terminals for purely O & D flights, and international terminals for widebody flights continuing on to 3rd destinations but allowing the 'domestic' pax to pass through a special customs using fingerprint technology with a barcoded sticker.


User currently offlineHikarufree From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4855 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 16):
The downside of this is that it means that you have to handle your bags twice - if coming from North America to Australia, for example, you'd have to wait and pick up your bags at AKL for C&I, and then load the bags on again and have to wait and pick them up a second time at your Australian arrival port. Unless, of course, they do immigration at first port of call, and then customs and biosecurity at the final destination - that might be preferable for both countries, especially in terms of biosecurity. Or they could use the D-sticker approach which would have all processing for transit pax at the final port of arrival and only one "wait" at the baggage conveyor.

The latter two ideas would be great, but I don't think the double handling of the bags is that big of a deal. Double C&I would be Kafkaesque.

Many passengers do the same when connecting onto a US domestic flight (prime example would be QF's SYD-LAX-JFK services). So the new moves would bookend the experience going from the US to Aust/NZ.

It's been aeons since I've been to AKL, but I reckon the officers would be cheerier than the ones at LAX for transit passengers.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3207 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4855 times:



Quoting Cospn (Reply 21):
They will be allowed to go between the two countries without any checks ???

seems like big trouble waiting to happen, just overstay your visa in NZ and hide out in Aust..

Not really... they can be witch hunted in both countries if need be.


25 QF45 : Agreed. I'm sure Immigration systems would definatly be streamlined if this goes ahead. The likes of some sort of arrival form would be use so tracki
26 NZ107 : This simply wouldn't work in the case of AKL. The domestic terminal only has capacity for 1 767 slot IIRC, definitely not big enough for either the A
27 Koruman : The whole idea is horrible. I fly Air NZ from OOL and BNE to SFO and HNL precisely to AVOID having to be processed part-way through my journey at Syd
28 CHCalfonzo : Get real mate. Ever heard of "cutting off your nose to spite your face..."?
29 Koruman : Not at all. For four consecutive years now, Air NZ has gone crying to the Australian or NZ competition regulators, complaining that it can't make any
30 Aisak : No need to. If Emirates fly DXB-SYD-AKL the whole flight should be international. If not it cancels out the whole idea of simplyfing the process. DXB
31 NZ107 : I was mainly referring to his reply. There is no way that AKL could do these flights through the domestic terminal and hence a separate area in the i
32 Lufthansa : You've missed the point. EK and friends CAN carry passengers on 5th freedom flights, so its not like the DL flight u mentioned or say, QF108 SYD-LAX-
33 VirginFlyer : Thanks a bunch Terry Clark & Co! I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again - if this 'domestification' goes ahead, will there be a case f
34 DavidByrne : I don't think that this is even part of the question. Whatever arrangements Australia and NZ make with regard to their common border has nothing what
35 Gemuser : But, that would mean the AKL-ADL flight would be treated as an international flight, using the international terminals, with most of the pax travelli
36 Sydscott : Well there's not that many of you really so we don't need to worry. QF Cityflyer on the Tasman would be a good idea! All jokes aside, you could easil
37 DavidByrne : I could imagine that NZ might consider it a significant competitive disadvantage if pax from North America bound for (say) ADL had to effectively tra
38 Lufthansa : They were still seperate countries... its just memeber state airlines did not need to go through all the complications. This in theory gives the local
39 Gemuser : I doubt that either the Oz or NZ governments would really care. They would say to Air New Zealand (&all the other airlines) "this is what we have agr
40 DavidByrne : Absolutely agree, but the market ex WLG/CHC/ZQN/DUD to Europe/Asia is probably smaller by far than the market ex ADL/MEL/OOL/BNE/CNS to North America
41 NZ107 : I think once the second runway is built, it shouldn't take too long for them to get onto the new domestic terminal. But at least it isn't starting ri
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