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SRB Complains About AA/BA "merger"  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5411 posts, RR: 7
Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

There is a Dow Jones report on my brokers wire that quotes Branson as saying that Virgin Atlantic can't survive if AA and BA are allowed to merge. He compares it to Coke and Pepsi merging. Sorry, I can't provide a link.

Have I missed a rather large event? Merger? Or is this just some putative, far-off event? I have to guess that he taking about ATI and either Branson or the reporter is miscalling it a merger. Assuming it is ATI, it seems to me he is exaggerating Virgin's problems.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

He is just afraid that he has to sell his airline in the end and loosing the power...

The whole airline industry is realizing that they can not survive alone and everyone is trying to join an alliance and / or grow as fast as possible.
But if you are an egomaniac and you want to be the star without sharing what you build up alone it is gonna be difficult for you.

AA & BA just made an rational decision and i am sure their ATI will go through now with Open Skies in effect and LH owning BD's LHR slots.

But for SRB and VS it is gonna be a though time left alone at LHR and on the TATL market, perhaps rumors HAVE TO come true now with a takeover by LH or someone else (outside one world) inevitable in some month or years.

Granted, for someone like SRB a reason to rant over BA and AA; at least from the VS perspective, not from a rational, economical one...


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3569 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3594 times:

I'm sure that VS will survive, regardless of whether BA/AA is granted ATI or not.
After all, whilst the growth rate at VS appears to have slowed in recent years, until the recent recession in the whole Industry it has continued to grow.
BA/AA appear to me to be a completely different entity to VS. They offer a diverse mix of long haul and short haul services, offering their passengers through routing to hundreds of destinations. Meanwhile VS is essentially a point to point airline, with leisure traffic being of far greater importance than to BA

Just look at MCO, where VS feeds in up to 5 744's a day all with a fairly high density layout, ATI for BA will have no effect whatsoever on this, nor will it on the rest of VS's LGW, MAN or GLA traffic

It might have an effect on LHR - JFK traffic, where BA/AA would I'm sure hope to rationalise their flights to offer a combined service better than their present offerings; but where is it going to affect VS's other routes from LHR ?

Unless BA wish to set up a rival to Virgin Holidays, and deliberately cater for those who travel in football shirts, VS will be here for a long while yet.


User currently offlineSevenforty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):
but where is it going to affect VS's other routes from LHR ?

umm..LAX, SFO, IAD, BOS, MIA, EWR, ORD....

I don't know what the answer is for VS. Being the small underdog 'had' its advantages but it may just prove to be an achilles heel in the European airlline industry.

It's all such a bigger game now, we're talking about global alliances being allowed to compete with each other fairly, not individual airlines. I can't see ATI being refused to Oneworld when Skyteam and Star have it. I think SRB is whistling past the graveyard unless he gives in to the trend !

I guess that would go against the whole Virgin concept but it's outdated now.

[Edited 2009-05-14 10:55:39]

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8338 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3497 times:
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Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):
It might have an effect on LHR - JFK traffic, where BA/AA would I'm sure hope to rationalise their flights to offer a combined service better than their present offerings; but where is it going to affect VS's other routes from LHR ?

From New York to LHR we now have Continental, Delta, Virgin, BA & AA. BA is clearly number #1 from JFK to LHR but EWR is more competitive with BA & Cal even. Virgin and AA are fairly close in seats and frequency from JFK to LHR. Delta is only in its 14th month into LHR and will be more competitive this summer, in the future DL will certainly have more then its current 2 764's daily.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22911 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3477 times:



Quoting Sevenforty (Reply 3):
I don't know what the answer is for VS. Being the small underdog 'had' its advantages but it may just prove to be an achilles heel in the European airlline industry.

 checkmark 

To me, this seems like SRB being a sore loser after choosing not to play the alliance game.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3569 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3427 times:



Quoting Sevenforty (Reply 3):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 2):
but where is it going to affect VS's other routes from LHR ?

umm..LAX, SFO, IAD, BOS, MIA, EWR, ORD....

Well it wouldn't affect SFO or EWR as AA don't fly to them from the UK, and some of the others they only fly 1 / day.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5411 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

The Dow Jones report has now been updated to note that SRB used the word merger, but the proposed alliance is not a merger.

I wonder who's been reading this thread.  Smile



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineSevenforty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 6):
Well it wouldn't affect SFO or EWR as AA don't fly to them from the UK, and some of the others they only fly 1 / day.

Surely the key to all this though is 'revenue sharing' The cost efficiences are enormous.

VS was complaining that BA/AA will have 100% market share on LHR/DFW. But VS don't fly to DFW. Never have. Nothing stopping them. Maybe VS should have been more on the ball when LH was making its move on BD or more importantly its slots. Would they have been biting off more than they could chew though or want? No guts no glory. If you want to compete then REALLY compete.

Look at the facts. VS is 49% owned by SQ of the Star alliance. BD and its 11% of LHR slots is now 80% owned by LH of the Star alliance. Openskies has opened up LHR to CO, DL, etc All of whom have antitrust with Star and Sky. I mean come on !!

Lets face it. At the end of the day VS dont want to be the only one left with their pants down.

[Edited 2009-05-14 12:34:50]

User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3304 times:



Quoting Sevenforty (Reply 8):
All of whom have antitrust with Star and Sky. I mean come on !!

SQ has chosen not to participate in the Star Alliance anti-trust immunity.

Also to add some information, Singapore Airlines made a US$47M loss in the fourth quarter alone due to associated companies. Virgin is a big part of that although there is no breakdown of that US$47M yet (as Tiger Airways is an associated company too).

Quoting Dow Jones Newswires:
Asked whether Virgin Atlantic could survive if a BA-American alliance is approved by U.S. regulators, Branson said, "It would be very difficult."

"I cannot guarantee Virgin Atlantic's survival if BA and AA are allowed to merge," he said.

An American Airlines official accused Branson of "fear-mongering," contending that approval of the antitrust immunity would enhance, not impede, competition.

"As soon as our application is approved, it will allow for an immediate re-leveling of the playing field," since other alliances have already received antitrust immunity, said Kevin Cox, American's vice president for state and community affairs.




Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Branson has been saying this for a while, you remember the "No way BA/AA" sticker that they used to have on their planes? VS could not survive if this merger happened, it would create the largest airline in the world, I think. However, I don't know how the flag carrier for both countries would merge together.Would they retain their respective titles? Becuase I can't see BA changing all their liveries to AA decals like NW did with DL or vice versa.


"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineSevenforty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3273 times:



Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 9):
SQ has chosen not to participate in the Star Alliance anti-trust immunity.

Also to add some information, Singapore Airlines made a US$47M loss in the fourth quarter alone due to associated companies. Virgin is a big part of that although there is no breakdown of that US$47M yet (as Tiger Airways is an associated company too).

Profit or loss VS is still 49% owned by SQ. SQ may not be participating in antitrust but they are still a Star alliance member that would benefit from an LHR based airline if VS was a worthwhile investment. Whether they are or not is not a concern of the Department Of Transport.

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 9):
All of whom have antitrust with Star and Sky. I mean come on !!

SQ has chosen not to participate in the Star Alliance anti-trust immunity.

I was referring to CO, DL etc not SQ.


User currently offlineHawkercamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

I'm an advocate of massive worldwide consolidation of the long haul market.
Globally there are currently too many airlines going after too few passengers using to many planes making too little profit.

One World Airlines? Star Airlines? Sky Airlines and umm Emirates!

AA/BA/QF/IB/JAL?
LH/VS/BD/SQ?
AF/KLM/NW/DL/ANA?


User currently offlineSevenforty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3244 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 10):
VS could not survive if this merger happened, it would create the largest airline in the world,

It's not a merger though is it. It's just a sensational choice of word by SRB.

BUT the future has to be merger and consolidation. Both for the financial benefits and for the environment. I just think that any overlapping or duplication is going to get ever more hard to defend unless the worlds aircraft are all flying around full. If things stay the way they are that's never going to happen is it.


User currently offlineCws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

SRB, interviewed by the BBC's Matt Frei this afternoon, clarified a bit by saying he is opposed to allowing AA/BA "to effectively merge" on transatlantic routes.


volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineMal787 From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Poor old SRB has long been wanting to be the Knight in Shinning Armour standing alone in a big boys world. If had put his foot forward with the LH & BMI talks he could have had something he does not, and that is a domestic/ european feed into VA. But no he missed the boat and now he is playing the old school yard bully routine yet again.with him being Billy Bunter. Sorry SRB you have had your chances and you let them go . It is inevitable that over the next few years we will see carriers extending the current alliances they have in OW etc and if you are not a part of any of these , you will continue to be a niche player with a small market share waiting for a big player to come and bit your butt.
And that sir is your own doing

mal787



Flying cant get enough of it
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9335 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2946 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 4):
Delta is only in its 14th month into LHR and will be more competitive this summer, in the future DL will certainly have more then its current 2 764's daily.

AF/DL are(were) going to have 3x daily. IMO before Delta (Delta not AF) adds anymore flights to JFK, Atlanta will get a 2nd daily slot.
IMO ATL will end up with 2x daily 764 to LHR and 1x daily 764 or 763 to LGW. Once they add a 2nd daily to LHR they will likely have to downgrade the 333 from LGW.

Quoting Hawkercamm (Reply 12):
ANA?

huh? Id say theyd go with there *A buddys.

Quoting Hawkercamm (Reply 12):
LH/VS/BD/SQ?

ANA/UA/AC/CO/ and the rest of Star LOL

Quoting Hawkercamm (Reply 12):
AA/BA/QF/IB/JAL?

and the rest of OW

Quoting Hawkercamm (Reply 12):
AF/KLM/NW/DL/ANA?

and KE/AZ/OK and AM for sure. SU may come along also.

IMHO I think AF should go after VS. A) jack the price up for LH/BD or B) get more(better) LHR slots for long haul opps.



yep.
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2499 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2856 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
IMHO I think AF should go after VS. A) jack the price up for LH/BD or B) get more(better) LHR slots for long haul opps

It just amazes me how people want more and more competition at LHR. AF chasing VS, LH buying BD and BA competeing against all of this; where clearely there is almost no competition at FRA, CDG or AMS.



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