Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
What's Up At SFO Tonight  
User currently offlineMikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 725 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4997 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Noticed a few diverts -

SJC
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL1561
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SKW6349
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL1798

OAK
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA783
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL179
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...5/history/20090515/0437Z/KOAK/KSFO

As far as I know the weather has been normal


The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCaliforniaMate From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Looking out my window (I live 2 minutes from SFO) and its really foggy. Maybe that?

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4881 times:



Quoting Mikesairways (Thread starter):
As far as I know the weather has been normal

Low ceilings came in sooner than previously forecasted, precluded visual approaches, and forced them on to a single runway operation. The resultant delays were apparently longer than some flights could tolerate, so it was off to the alternate.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 018 SFO/ZOA 05/15/2009 CDM GROUND STOP
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: SFO
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 0412Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 15/0317Z - 15/0515Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (MANUAL) ZOA ZLA
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 374 / 63 / 27
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 972 / 108 / 69
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: LOW
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / LOW CEILINGS
COMMENTS: SFO LANDED 24 A/C LAST HOUR. MULTIPLE GO AROUNDS. AIRBORNE
HOLDING AND DIVERSIONS IN PROGRESS


User currently offlineNibog From Ireland, joined Apr 2009, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

Hi Guys,

I am travelling to SFO next month and I have heard of the fog that rolls in,but I am just curious,are the delays that occured last night the norm under the weather/low ceilings,or was last night a case of mother nature catching everybody out. I fly in on the big EI green bird at 1pm(SFO time) so maybe by that time of the day it may be better!!!.

Thanks for your help Nibog


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4706 times:



Quoting Nibog (Reply 4):

I am travelling to SFO next month and I have heard of the fog that rolls in,but I am just curious,are the delays that occured last night the norm under the weather/low ceilings,or was last night a case of mother nature catching everybody out. I fly in on the big EI green bird at 1pm(SFO time) so maybe by that time of the day it may be better!!!.

Last night was actually an example of both. It wasn't the fog, per se, that messed them up--it was the low ceilings, and to a lesser extent, the winds. The ceilings prevented use of visual approaches, which means they couldn't land using both 28L and 28R, and could only use one of them. (The centerlines of 28L and 28R are too close together for being able to run ILS approaches to each runway.) Runways 01L and 01R are usually used for departures, but the surface winds at SFO put those two close to being out of crosswind limits, so it was land on 28R and depart on 28L. All that cuts their normal acceptance rate down from a normal 60 to 27-32, and it's then delay time.

If the ceilings are forecasted to arrive at a certain time, ATC will initiate a ground delay program to delay some SFO-bound flights at their departure points so as to match traffic demand to the reduced capacity. If they plan on reduced capacity starting 0400Z but Mother Nature throws the ceilings in at 0200Z, then demand will exceed the capacity (which has just been reduced) and some flights start to hold, and some may divert.

As far as your international flight is concerned, you have less to worry about in the sense that the flight time is so long that they don't get captured within any ground delay programs. You may a see a turn or two in holding, but should be able to get in OK, assuming of course that the visbility stays above landing minimums.


User currently offlineAtomsareenough From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4537 times:



Quoting Nibog (Reply 4):
I fly in on the big EI green bird at 1pm(SFO time)

Unless it happens to be rainy that day, I think you'll most likely be fine in terms of weather delay. We get morning fog pretty regularly at SFO but it usually burns off by mid-morning.


User currently offlineMikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4520 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting CaliforniaMate (Reply 1):
Looking out my window (I live 2 minutes from SFO) and its really foggy. Maybe that?

Goes to show how us folks in the slums of the south bay forget the dramatic climate change between SJC and SFO. Which reminds me, I'm going to the Giants game tonight and forgot my sweater...crap.



The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineNibog From Ireland, joined Apr 2009, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4405 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
As far as your international flight is concerned, you have less to worry about in the sense that the flight time is so long that they don't get captured within any ground delay programs. You may a see a turn or two in holding, but should be able to get in OK, assuming of course that the visbility stays above landing minimums

Thank you for that detailed and behind the scenes evaluation OPNLguy,I really appreciate it,looking forward to visiting your neck of the woods!!!.

Quoting Atomsareenough (Reply 6):
Unless it happens to be rainy that day, I think you'll most likely be fine in terms of weather delay. We get morning fog pretty regularly at SFO but it usually burns off by mid-morning

Thanks for that Atomsareenough ,I really appreciate it,looking forward to visiting your neck of the woods!!!.


User currently offlineDAL763ER From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Can someone explain to me why SFO is in fog at this time of the year? It's the beginning of the summer...maybe it's a stupid question...


Where aviation is not the side show, it's the main show!!!
User currently offlineScutfarcus From United States of America, joined May 2000, 409 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

DAL763ER - Summer is sometimes the foggiest time of year in SF. We don't really call it "summer" until September and October - those are the nicest time of year.

The reason: In the spring and summer, the central valley of California gets really really hot, that hot air rises and the only major opening to replace that rising air is the Golden Gate - so it sucks very cold air off the Pacific right over San Francisco - resulting in wind, fog and low temperatures in the city.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4202 times:



Quoting Nibog (Reply 8):
Thank you for that detailed and behind the scenes evaluation OPNLguy,I really appreciate it,looking forward to visiting your neck of the woods!!!

Any time...  Wink

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 9):
Can someone explain to me why SFO is in fog at this time of the year? It's the beginning of the summer...maybe it's a stupid question...

Just wanted to point out that, with respect to the situation on the night that the OP was referring to, the problem wasn't reduced visibility from fog, but the cloud ceilings that moved in earlier than expected and precluded the use of parallel visual approaches to 28L and 28R. Clouds can happen any time of the year, and absent the runways being further separated by a construction project or an earthquake, SFO will always be susceptible to big ATC delays..


User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4081 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
The centerlines of 28L and 28R are too close together for being able to run ILS approaches to each runway.

Not to chime in off subject but that is why they designed, commishened, and built SOIA (Sim. Offset Intrument Approaches) for SFO. STL and CLE also "have" this type of approach. Just bring them in on the PRM approaches. ILS PRM is right down to 200 HAT and the LDA PRM is right down to 1440 DA (1127 HAT).

So unless the airline/airplane/crew is not certified/trained then the PRMs are OK. Actually if you look at the AAU page; if the PRM approaches are in use, crews/planes/airlines that are not certified need PPR (Prior Permission Required) to get a "slot."

So the options are there.........


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4014 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 12):
Not to chime in off subject but that is why they designed, commishened, and built SOIA (Sim. Offset Intrument Approaches) for SFO. STL and CLE also "have" this type of approach. Just bring them in on the PRM approaches. ILS PRM is right down to 200 HAT and the LDA PRM is right down to 1440 DA (1127 HAT).

So unless the airline/airplane/crew is not certified/trained then the PRMs are OK. Actually if you look at the AAU page; if the PRM approaches are in use, crews/planes/airlines that are not certified need PPR (Prior Permission Required) to get a "slot."

So the options are there.........

While I'm well aware of those (and wanted to keep things simple with respect to different types if ILS approaches), my overall point remains the same, i.e. one isn't going to be able to run simultaneous ILS approaches to 28L and 28R and expect the airport acceptance rate (AAR) to be that same 60 that SFO has when they're severe clear and running VAPs to the 28s and departing the 01s. SOIA might get you a 32-36 rate (and maybe even a 45 rate if the planets line-up just right), and while those are better than a 25-30 rate, it sure as heck ain't 60, thus the delays still occur.

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 12):
commishened

Wasn't that the old 1980s cop show that had the actor that more recently got himself all bulked up and starred in that other cop show called "The Shield?"  duck 


User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3972 times:



Quoting Scutfarcus (Reply 10):
DAL763ER - Summer is sometimes the foggiest time of year in SF. We don't really call it "summer" until September and October - those are the nicest time of year.

I've only spent much time in San Francisco in June and July. When the sun goes down, the weather is not nice.

I agree with the quote mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."


User currently offlineDc10s2hnl From New Zealand, joined Aug 2006, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3702 times:



Quoting Scutfarcus (Reply 10):
The reason: In the spring and summer, the central valley of California gets really really hot, that hot air rises and the only major opening to replace that rising air is the Golden Gate - so it sucks very cold air off the Pacific right over San Francisco - resulting in wind, fog and low temperatures in the city.

Exactly. Hence our affectionate term "June Gloom"  Wink


User currently offlineLAX25R From United States of America, joined May 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3661 times:



Quoting Dc10s2hnl (Reply 15):
Exactly. Hence our affectionate term "June Gloom

And when it's coming early, they're calling it "May Grey" by our weather people down here in Socal. Last weekend there were a lot of arrival delays due to 28R being closed for some type of maintence/construction. From what I gather, it's going on most nights and weeks for a little while so I'm sure that's not helping much either.


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3569 times:



Quoting Scutfarcus (Reply 10):
The reason: In the spring and summer, the central valley of California gets really really hot, that hot air rises and the only major opening to replace that rising air is the Golden Gate - so it sucks very cold air off the Pacific right over San Francisco - resulting in wind, fog and low temperatures in the city.

We have the same problem in San Diego along the coast. We refer to it as "May Gray" and "June Gloom." We have had very little sun on the coast for the last two weeks.

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 12):
Not to chime in off subject but that is why they designed, commishened, and built SOIA (Sim. Offset Intrument Approaches) for SFO. STL and CLE also "have" this type of approach. Just bring them in on the PRM approaches. ILS PRM is right down to 200 HAT and the LDA PRM is right down to 1440 DA (1127 HAT).

From the AAUP:

"Simultaneous paralell approaches wil only be offered/conducted when the weather is at least 2100 feet (ceiling) and 4 miles (visibility)."

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0905/00375IPRM28L_C.PDF

The runways at STL and CLE are a little further apart than at SFO. 1300' in the case of STL.


User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3481 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 12):
So unless the airline/airplane/crew is not certified/trained then the PRMs are OK. Actually if you look at the AAU page; if the PRM approaches are in use, crews/planes/airlines that are not certified need PPR (Prior Permission Required) to get a "slot."

So the options are there.........

The mins for SOIA are pretty high (2100 and 4). Starting around 630pm or so, the ceilings were less than 1000 feet. Not good enough for SOIA.


User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 863 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3271 times:

Yep, my first visit to SFO was in June. What a surprise it was to see the fog roll in just b4 sunset. Then on my next visit I was prepared. However my Western flight had to hold for about 30 mins for flow control, because SFO had gone down to 1 runway that night.
JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2411 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 13):
While I'm well aware of those (and wanted to keep things simple with respect to different types if ILS approaches)

Makes sense.... I just like to get down and dirty myself.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Whats Up At Kteb? posted Thu May 10 2007 22:04:38 by PILOTALLEN
Whats Up With American And Qantas Ops At LAX? posted Fri Mar 21 2008 13:56:45 by Access-Air
Zantop L-188s At YIP, Whats Up With Them? posted Sun Nov 11 2007 13:37:03 by Falstaff
Whats Up With Innacurate Segment Mileages At NWA? posted Sun Jan 21 2007 21:23:57 by KDTWFlyer
Whats Up With JetBlue At LGB posted Mon Jul 5 2004 04:31:53 by Flairport
Whats Up With Terminal A-3 At EWR? posted Wed Nov 12 2003 02:49:34 by Tommy767
Whats Up With UA CDG SFO? posted Fri Apr 11 2003 15:25:02 by Parisien
Whats Up With All The Freight Flights At Clk? posted Tue Apr 2 2002 02:35:53 by Hkgspotter1
CO 763 At SFO? posted Sun May 10 2009 00:51:20 by DocLightning
Whats Different At American? posted Wed Apr 15 2009 12:58:53 by LAXdude1023