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DL Wants To Cut Pilot Jobs  
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9118 times:

Looking for people to take early out programs. I guess they plan to cut a lot of flying (remember it was supposed to be about addition not subtraction). Originally the pilot groups were told that they would be understaffed at the merger (due to Delta pilots being less efficient then NW's) by around 400 guys.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh.../2009-05-11-delta-union-jobs_N.htm


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9095 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
(remember it was supposed to be about addition not subtraction)

And it would be if the economy wasnt as low as a whale turd at the bottom of the ocean. Plus, with the elimination of the B74F fleet - those guys will be made redundant, and will soon be exercising their rights to displace in other fleets and seats.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9095 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looking for people to take early out programs. I guess they plan to cut a lot of flying (remember it was supposed to be about addition not subtraction). Originally the pilot groups were told that they would be understaffed at the merger (due to Delta pilots being less efficient then NW's) by around 400 guys.

First of all, this is old news. Second, they always made it clear that the merger itself would not result in front-line job cuts. But they also made it clear that other factors, such as the economy or the price of fuel, could have an impact on growth (or retrenchment).

What would you have them do? NOT respond responsibly to the global economic meltdown? Do you want your company to survive and prosper or not? It's really that simple.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10645 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9096 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looking for people to take early out programs. I guess they plan to cut a lot of flying (remember it was supposed to be about addition not subtraction). Originally the pilot groups were told that they would be understaffed at the merger (due to Delta pilots being less efficient then NW's) by around 400 guys.

I guess management isn't allowed to change their plans if conditions warrant it, huh? Could it have something to do with the economy tanking, ya think?

I'm willing to bet, if DL wasn't doing any of these cost cutting measures, the people here on a.net, including you, would be wondering why they weren't, in light of the economy.

At least they're not just laying pilots off. Are they looking for 400 retirements or are some of those numbers to be taken care of thru attrition, also?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCokePopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9098 times:

Don't you think the writing was on the wall? Look at this economy. They
have already offered two early outs in one year to the rest of the employees.
It was only a matter of time they would offer the pilots. It may be hard to believe
but a lot has happened since the start of this merger beyond Delta's control. I am
happy that I work for a company that is able to react quickly with the times than
slowly or not at all as you seem to suggest.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9037 times:

Surprised? Take into account the 40 or so mainline a/c that they plan on grounding although i'm still not clear on whether that number included the freighters.

I suspect a good number of the pilots will come from the NW side as their group is much more senior than the DL guys.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7625 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9000 times:

I'll take a rain check on some of the opinions already mentioned, as far as I am concerned, there was always going to be reductions in staff across the board regardless of what was said publicy or the state of the economy.

The whole point of the merger was to take out competition, reduce capacity, and allow the surviving entity more profits from the same routes by raising prices, for me that is the ultimate goal of mergers and or consolidations. If this was not the ultimate goal why merge in the first place?

The only traction I will give the economy is that it has sped the process along and it may also deepen the cuts which were originally planned, those however, will be in line with the rest of the industry, not just their consolidated environment.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9000 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 1):
And it would be if the economy wasnt as low as a whale turd at the bottom of the ocean

The economy was well within the crapper when the entered into the merger, its better than it was last year as we are seeing lower gas prices, less jobless claims etc.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10645 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8935 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
its better than it was last year as we are seeing lower gas prices,

In case you haven't noticed, fuel is on the way back up. I don't think it will reach the heights it did before, but it is rising.

Instead of complaining about every little thing and twisting what was said around to fit your opinion of this merger, you'd do better to help make the merger work, because, you know what? This merger is going forward and will happen whether you like it or not.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8892 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
Instead of complaining about every little thing and twisting what was said around to fit your opinion of this merger, you'd do better to help make the merger work, because, you know what? This merger is going forward and will happen whether you like it or not.

Actually, I think he is an NWA dependent, I think his dad flew for NWA; he is not an NWA employee at all. Well, I dont think he is, maybe small station level, but that is about it.

But yes, I echo Mayor's sentiment. I think he could be allowed to fly alone on a B777, with no one else aboard other than operating crew, and he would still find something to whine about.

And yes, the merger is proceeding forward. Like it or not, it is the new reality in the NWA/DAL world.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3403 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8824 times:

We were talking about these Early Out programs the other day at my station. And yes, Dispatchguy, it's a "small station."

I wonder why they can't do a sort of "rolling" early out? What I mean is instead of implementing one big program at a time, they could do it continuosly, maybe every quarter. On the ramp at NW, we currently have a program wherein 100 people can early out every year.

Remember the company holds the keys; if they can't afford to let people go, they don't. If they need someone to stay in place for, say, another 6 months, well, they dictate that too...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8640 times:



Quoting NWAESC (Reply 10):
What I mean is instead of implementing one big program at a time, they could do it continuosly, maybe every quarter.

That's the Japanese management style and there is much to be said in favor of it. American managers learn this in B-school but are too impatient and too pressured by stockholders to stick to this approach when the crunch hits.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8624 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looking for people to take early out programs. I guess they plan to cut a lot of flying (remember it was supposed to be about addition not subtraction). Originally the pilot groups were told that they would be understaffed at the merger (due to Delta pilots being less efficient then NW's) by around 400 guys.

The PREPs have alot to do with the lose of the 742s and also has alot to do with A) cutting the top down a little more and B) the parking of some aircraft.
Next year it looks like DL may have to add more pilots with 3 M90s 2 777s and 5 737s coming into the fleet. The bad thing is I would look for more PREPs to come out when they pull the 9s out within the next 5 years. (I don't believe for a second they will add a mainline type. Like to replace with the 76 seaters they have now.)
Plus if they cut some of the top guys out then they will lower costs as these guys would more than likely be at the top getting better pay and what not.



yep.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8517 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
PREPs



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
PREP

My bad should say PERPs.



yep.
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7789 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
The economy was well within the crapper when the entered into the merger, its better than it was last year as we are seeing lower gas prices, less jobless claims etc.



Quoting Mayor (Reply 8):
In case you haven't noticed, fuel is on the way back up. I don't think it will reach the heights it did before, but it is rising.

Yes, unfortunately we have many more terrible months ahead. Wishing a good economy is one thing, taking the raw data and drawing a forecast is another. Fact of the matter is, it's not looking good now or anywhere in the foreseeable future, especially with the spending spree our government is on. The GOOD CEO's realize this and are taking precautions in reaction. Simple as that.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7497 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):

The economy was well within the crapper when the entered into the merger, its better than it was last year as we are seeing lower gas prices, less jobless claims etc.

No. The merger was announced in the Spring of 2008. While certainly the economy had turned negative prior to that, the major collapse took place in September 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_...ancial_crisis_of_2008%E2%80%932009

And, "better" is very subjective. Some indicators are better, but most still suck. And most economists still predict a lot more rough air. AND air travel lags economic growth.


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

You know the old story, it's "force Majeure." Perhaps they can turn some flying over to a contract carrier, such as Colgan Air. Or better yet, just replace experienced professionals with . . .

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6262 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 15):
And, "better" is very subjective. Some indicators are better, but most still suck. And most economists still predict a lot more rough air. AND air travel lags economic growth.

next big hill is this flu. IMO will get worse before it gets better. For the airlines at least.

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 16):

they are also pulling more CRJs. It wont hurt the contact carriers as bad because most of them have gotten grow aircraft (E75/CR9s) Where Delta has only got the few 777s.



yep.
User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5612 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 15):
The merger was announced in the Spring of 2008.

Wasn't it announced sometime in late 2007? The merge was approved by the DOT around last October-ish, right?



[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
User currently offlineDLDTW1962 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5135 times:

Be thankful you folks have a job at all.... Most mergers would have resulted in large layoffs. Look at TWA/AA. TWA was not the winner in that one... NWA/DL is doing the right thing here
and only down grading when are where needed.

chuck


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5004 times:



Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 18):
Wasn't it announced sometime in late 2007? The merge was approved by the DOT around last October-ish, right?

Official announcement was in April of last year; Jetlanta is right. Justice approved the marriage that fall. You may be confusing that date with when they emerged from bankruptcy.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4890 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
its better than it was last year as we are seeing lower gas prices, less jobless claims etc.

Wrong. More unemployed now than last year. Yes, "claims" are down, but the total unemployment is up.
You need to see how the data is collected and reported to arrive at a valid conclusion.

Gas prices are not an indicator of overall economic heath.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4825 times:



Quoting DLDTW1962 (Reply 19):

 checkmark 

Overall, I think kudos should first off go out to all the employees and also MGMT. Seems like things are trucking along. Not the mess that was (is?) US Airways.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4017 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

DL is going to try their hardest to prevent FURLOUGHS. Their current step is to reduce headcount and definitely reduce longevity which will save tons of money. After early outs are over with, they'll reevaluate. They have to evaluate the costs of a furlough and the costs of just operating fat on crews for a period of time. The way the flow back provisions are written, is that when DL furloughs they can all but decimate the entire COMPASS pilot group. That means lots of training costs to get rid of Compass pilots and retrain the flowbacks. Not to mention the time it will take to get rid of perhaps 300 pilots at DL and then subsequently Compass, while keeping both airlines operating. It won't be pretty. The flowback provisions to Mesaba will barely affect our pilot group, just by the way the agreement is written.

Mesaba is also currently over staffed thanks to DL redirecting 10 900s away from XJ after everyone was hired for the additional flying. It would cost a lot of money to furlough, especially if there is potential for it to be short term. For both airlines there are lots of ways to get creative to save jobs and save the company money.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4246 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 23):
Mesaba is also currently over staffed thanks to DL redirecting 10 900s away from XJ after everyone was hired for the additional flying. It would cost a lot of money to furlough, especially if there is potential for it to be short term. For both airlines there are lots of ways to get creative to save jobs and save the company money.

BTW what are they going to do about that? Same type of deal. Give them PERPs or lay-off the new guys?



yep.
25 Lufthansa : This is just the start of it guys. Why you lot didn't think it would happen is beyond belief. Look for some consolidation at hubs. For example, Why ru
26 Jetlanta : No more 744's...for sure. In fact, the 16 they have will likely be out the door sooner than you think.
27 Brilondon : Well in this economy all the airlines are cutting jobs pilots among them. This is nothing new. While you try to cut up everything about DL, 400 pilot
28 DeltaL1011man : I would expect when the tell us were the 10% is coming from they will park at least 2 744s. If not (up to) 6. At this point its more likely that A) 7
29 Lufthansa : 2 things: (1) you've got to see past the recession. Flying the exact same routes sure, bigger is NOT needed atm. (2) Consolidation of flights.
30 DeltaL1011man : No. Thats the problem everyone just expects it to get better. Hell it could be 10 year before it does. IMO it could NEVER get bettter. (read gov. pis
31 Lufthansa : But this is just the point. Why work around it? Why avoid it? It's still one of the lowest CASM aircraft out there, especially when you buy it cheap.
32 Nwaesc : ...Unless you're one of the 400...
33 Azjubilee : L1011 - Mesaba ALPA and the company have been working together to mitigate the overstaffed situation. There have been TOWOPs (time off without pay) wh
34 Bobnwa : What financial insight do you have that allows you make that claim, when most financial and ecoonomic experts in the US are predicting the opposite.
35 413X3 : is that what we have grown accustomed to in the business world? Just be happy we are still alive instead of wanting the best situation? Not everyone
36 Alitalia744 : Some fleets writing is on the wall. Replacement will come from existing types in fleet, and potential addition of subfleet.
37 Nwaesc : Just what NW/DL needs... another subfleet...
38 Alitalia744 : Not a bad thing in this instance, will fit in nicely with the existing fleet, however this is on hold for now.
39 DeltaL1011man : This isn't how the US airlines work. Delta and AF have 4 flights a day on ATL-CDG. The could combine some flights into a 747 but they don't. US airli
40 Lufthansa : Sorry but that's simply not true. US airlines dont "like' to have more smaller flights. They've been forced to have more smaller flights because, to
41 Lufthansa : Basically what I'm saying is to say that US airlines simply 'dont work that way' or "dont like that" is blindly subscribing to dogma without looking a
42 DeltaL1011man : I uderstand how/why they would. But it aint going to happen. I know how and why it happened. What I'm saying is it wont change. Then why do they keep
43 Flighty : If I am not mistaken, we have heard exactly nothing about how Delta plans to upgrade the 744's interior product... for example. Anyway, this merger w
44 Lufthansa : It's not no need. It's in the current environment they CANNOT offer anything bigger. To be competitive they're FORCED to keep frequency as high as it
45 DeltaL1011man : We haven't. The 747s are being looked at. The plan right now is to park 2 to 4 but use them to replace the 2 742s in PAX config. If the Econ gets bet
46 Lufthansa : But don't you see, that's what all the talk of consolidation is about. This is why they wont to move as an industry in this direction. That's the goa
47 Lufthansa : Oh one more other thing I just thought I should ad which is important to the competitive landscape. This whole financial crisis has forced airlines to
48 Azjubilee : L1011 - the early outs weren't that great of an offer, we don't have a pension and with 65, we don't have anyone on the verge of retirement quite yet.
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