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Qantas Removes F Class From Three Key Routes  
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1526 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14513 times:

Not sure whether or not this topic has already been covered here ...

But during the summer months I read that Qantas will not be offering a first class product on three main routes: SYD-SFO, SYD-BUE and MEL-HKG-LHR.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...aws-first-class-from-london-hong-k

I guess it's a sign of the times but the move will disappoint those passengers who are travelling on F class RTW tickets as there may not always be a Oneworld alternative. As far as I know, RTW ticket rules state that there's no refund should F class not be available on a specific sector for whatever reason.

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14437 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
As far as I know, RTW ticket rules state that there's no refund should F class not be available on a specific sector for whatever reason.

Yes, but it also must be noted that such are deeply discounted tickets anyhow, so a specific sector shouldn't be a major issue there.


User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3339 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14373 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
SYD-BUE

Assuming this is SYD-EZE. Doesn't surprise me with their fantastic new business class product which is better than AR offers and is direct rather than via AKL.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineAustralis From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14364 times:

Well, QF have to adjust to the times and if these routes are not pulling in the $$$ in certain sections of the cabins onboard, then its better to change now and hopefully make more money in the other sections like Economy and Business....

Obviously, once things pick up and demand comes back, im sure QF will reintroduce the First Class...


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6457 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14309 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
but the move will disappoint those passengers who are travelling on F class RTW tickets as there may not always be a Oneworld alternative

Passengers can always go via LAX on F if they were getting to SFO anyway.. And for getting to LHR, there are plenty of ways to do so with OneWorld. I'm sure they could get more revenue by selling more low yielding seats on these routes. My only guess is that their F loads were low due to CX's influence and they decided that it was in their best interests to stop F via HKG.

To add to this, they have Premium Economy being introduced - not that it has anything to do with F but more of the fact that people must be becoming more money conscious but want to avoid normal economy.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8632 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14264 times:
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Quoting Australis (Reply 3):
Obviously, once things pick up and demand comes back, im sure QF will reintroduce the First Class...

IF things pick up and demand comes back I am sure that QF will re-introduce First Class on these sectors , but on the other hand , large sections of QFs network do not have first class because over the years demand has dropped .

Not that many years ago most/all of QFs international network had first class , but times and travel patterns change . Now that QF has started to move to lie-flat in J ( admittedly only on the A380 for the moment ) F will become harder for companies and individuals to justify . My own feeling is that within a few years if QF decide to retain an F cabin at all it will be only on a few of the A380s and will be confined to SYD-LAX-JFK and SYD/MEL-SIN/BKK-LHR.

Quoting Australis (Reply 3):
Well, QF have to adjust to the times and if these routes are not pulling in the $$$ in certain sections of the cabins onboard, then its better to change now and hopefully make more money in the other sections like Economy and Business....

...dont forget premium economy  Smile

I fully agree with you re QF adjusting to the times - airlines that do not adjust to changing conditions do not last , the history books are littered with the names of airlines who refused to adapt because " we have always done things this way " .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineClubWorld1986 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14176 times:

Will LHR see the QF A330 on the MEL-HKG-LHR route then? or will they actually be removing the first class cabin from the 744???, or do they have configured 744 without First?

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12341 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14135 times:
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Quoting NZ107 (Reply 4):

Plus there are other routes to LHR served by QF that offer F


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1526 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14111 times:



Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 6):
Will LHR see the QF A330 on the MEL-HKG-LHR route then? or will they actually be removing the first class cabin from the 744???, or do they have configured 744 without First?

QF will still be offering premium economy so that means the B744 will continue. In any case, would the A330 have the range to fly LHR-HKG-LHR non-stop ?

I guess QF will either keep the B744's F class cabin empty or it will sell the seats as J class.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8632 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14115 times:
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Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 6):
Will LHR see the QF A330 on the MEL-HKG-LHR route then? or will they actually be removing the first class cabin from the 744???,

at this stage the intention seems to be to leave the F cabin intact on the a/c operating these sectors and to upgrade top tier frequent fliers from J into the F cabin , but with J catering and service ( and likewise from the premium economy cabin to the J cabin ) .

Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 6):
or do they have configured 744 without First?

QF currently operate a mix of 744 configurations - some have F cabins , some do not - for example aircraft operating AKL-LAX or SYD-SIN-FRA do not have F , nor , IIRC , do the BNE-LAX aircraft



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineClubWorld1986 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14034 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 8):

I think I saw the A330 at LAX last year. isn't the distance between SYD-LAX and HKG-LHR similar?


User currently offlineAlitaliaDC10 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14022 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
at this stage the intention seems to be to leave the F cabin intact on the a/c operating these sectors and to upgrade top tier frequent fliers from J into the F cabin , but with J catering and service ( and likewise from the premium economy cabin to the J cabin ) .

no need to be top tier...these seats are assignable for any business class coded booking. You're correct service will be to business class standard but with F hard product.



Orbis non sufficit
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8632 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13976 times:
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Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 11):
no need to be top tier...these seats are assignable for any business class coded booking.

I stand corrected , I just assumed , quite wrongly , that they would give priority to the top members when deciding which J class ticketed pax would get F seats .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5828 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13977 times:



Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 6):
Will LHR see the QF A330 on the MEL-HKG-LHR route then? or will they actually be removing the first class cabin from the 744???, or do they have configured 744 without First?

The QF website shows 7 B744 with 56J & 356Y seats. Some, at least are having Y+ added. But they will need to convert more to cover these new routes.

Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 6):
Will LHR see the QF A330 on the MEL-HKG-LHR route then?

That's an intriguing thought! Send an A380 via SIN and an A332 on via HKG. QF do have 4 A332 in "international" config of 36J & about 200Y and they have the range, the A333 I not so sure do. So its not completely unreasonable, but I think it unlikely, QF have NEVER operated a twin to Europe, in regular service.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1526 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13946 times:



Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 10):
think I saw the A330 at LAX last year. isn't the distance between SYD-LAX and HKG-LHR similar?

According to Expedia, LHR-HKG is 5,981 miles whereas SYD-LAX is 7,491 miles.

But SYD-LAX calls for much overwater flying and I don't think that, even if it had the range, the A330 is certified for that.


User currently offlineFly2CHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13913 times:



Quoting ClubWorld1986 (Reply 10):
I think I saw the A330 at LAX last year. isn't the distance between SYD-LAX and HKG-LHR similar?

That would have been when QF were using the A330 on AKL-LAX, and understand this was payload restricted too.


User currently offlineClubWorld1986 From United Kingdom, joined May 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13901 times:



Quoting LondonCity (Reply 14):

My error, I think the A330's originate from SYD/MEL via AKL then across to LAX.


User currently offlineAlitaliaDC10 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13901 times:



Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 11):
I stand corrected , I just assumed , quite wrongly , that they would give priority to the top members when deciding which J class ticketed pax would get F seats

no problems...in the past that has been the case with QF...they used to fly the 3 class 744s across SYD-AKL-SYD with only 2 class service - the First Class seats were only assignable to top tier members. At othertimes and this was the day before Skybed Business the F class was given to Business pax and the Business cabin had economy serivce but assigned to top tier economy pax first,

This is still the case when they send 3 class 744s on the BNE-LAX or SYD-FRA...

Sometimes they closed off the First cabin altogether and had no pax - this happened quite a bit on the SYD-PER sectors operated by 3 class 744s.

It's a bit mixed as you can see  Smile



Orbis non sufficit
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13833 times:



Quote:

Will LHR see the QF A330 on the MEL-AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG-LHR route then? or will they actually be removing the first class cabin from the 744???, or do they have configured 744 without First?

VH-OJA,OJB,OJC, OJD, OJE, OJI AND OJJ have NO First Class.

Current usage of these planes:-
Brisbaine -LAX
Melbourne- Auckland - LAX
Frankfurt-Singapore -Sydney.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13657 times:
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Quoting Australis (Reply 3):
Well, QF have to adjust to the times and if these routes are not pulling in the $$$ in certain sections of the cabins onboard, then its better to change now and hopefully make more money in the other sections like Economy and Business....

Obviously, once things pick up and demand comes back, im sure QF will reintroduce the First Class...

The EZE-SYD route is a 744ER route, Qantas has First Class on all their 6 744ER's. Does that mean they are flying a First Cabin filled with freebies ?


User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13524 times:

What surprises me is the choice of the London service particularly in that they couldn't use one of the above seven anyway and retain First class on the other South East Asia/ Melbourne flight as aircraft are changed daily at Heathrow.

Current schedues:- (Melbourne)
QF009 Arrives at 0525 from Singapore/Melbourne
QF030 Departs at 1220 to Hong Kong/Melbourne
QF029 Arrives at 1330 from Hong Kong/Melbourne
QF010 Departs at 2200 to Singapore/Melbourne

The Sydney aircraft operate as follows

QF001 Arrives at 0700 from Bangkok/Sydney -THIS aircraft then spend a leisurely day sitting on stands 440/441 watching the rabbits and other traffic on 27L/09R before returning to the antipodes
QF002 Departs at 2215 to Bangkok/Sydney

The final QF rotation employs a mix of B744 and the A388 (Currently 3 days a week -Scheduled to go up to five over the summer - subject to delivery )

This operates as follows

QF031 Arrives at 0640 from Singapore/Sydney
QF032 Departs at 1215 to Singapore/Sydney

If we then add in the JSA (BA) flights these are as follows

QF301 Arrives at 0620 from Bangkok/Sydney (BA 744)
QF319 Arrives at 0645 from Singapore/Sydney (BA 772)

QF320 Departs 2135 to Singapore/Sydney (BA 772)
QF302 Departs 2200 to Bangkok/Sydney (BA 744)

Given to close timings of three flights to/from Sydney each day i would countenance that QF01/2 be downgraded with the the F class loaded onto the BA operated flights.


User currently offlineAlitaliaDC10 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13523 times:



Quoting Rutankrd (Reply 19):
VH-OJA,OJB,OJC, OJD, OJE, OJI AND OJJ have NO First Class.

Current usage of these planes:-
Brisbaine -LAX
Melbourne- Auckland - LAX
Frankfurt-Singapore -Sydney.

MEL-AKL-MEL on the QF25/QF26 is with 737 operated by Jetconnect. If I'm not mistaken I believe the 747 rotation for this is BNE-LAX-AKL-LAX-BNE

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
The EZE-SYD route is a 744ER route, Qantas has First Class on all their 6 744ER's. Does that mean they are flying a First Cabin filled with freebies ?

Not at all - it will be with Business Class pax - basically the business class product will have an additional 14 F seats available for sale.



Orbis non sufficit
User currently offlineRutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13395 times:

AlitaliaDC10

Quote:
MEL-AKL-MEL on the QF25/QF26 is with 737 operated by Jetconnect. If I'm not mistaken I believe the 747 rotation for this is BNE-LAX-AKL-LAX-BNE

Possibly with the arrival of A388 I understand that the Trans-Pacific routes have taken some rationalization.

What of the three (used) and GE machines VH-OEB /OEC and OED.
These were employed on the LHR-Melbourne route extensively upto January and the A388 introduction.
Where are they now - Do they even have future with QF?


User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1526 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13395 times:



Quoting NZ107 (Reply 4):
And for getting to LHR, there are plenty of ways to do so with OneWorld. I'm sure they could get more revenue by selling more low yielding seats on these routes. My only guess is that their F loads were low due to CX's influence and they decided that it was in their best interests to stop F via HKG.

QF must have two problems is carrying F class pax between HKG and LHR.

1. It's not as well known as the likes of BA, CX and VS on this route
2. The departure time from HKG to LHR is at 7.35 am which means a very early start for business people staying in the city and an extra night's cost for a hotel room, meals etc.

Only NZ has an early departure from HKG. BA, CX and VS all fly later in the day.


User currently offlineSmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13249 times:

I'm confused, why would they leave F empty or with 14J pax sitting in F seats how would it justify the costs of removing F service, would hardly make a difference surly considering they may still get a low load?
Reconfiguring their aircraft to from four to three class makes sense, but not simply removing the F service and ticket price, the catering and other amenities can't be that costly to warrent no longer selling any F tickets and place J pax in F seats.


25 Hardiwv : Probably the seats in F would be empty anyway. However, if you decide to sell the F cabin even with 1 pax or even with an empty F cabin you need the
26 747m8te : At the moment its still 744 on QF25/26 MEL-AKL-LAX-AKL-MEL i think, unless its just changed but i thought that was later in the year?
27 AlitaliaDC10 : Sorry you're right...it is still 744 - the 733/734 by Jetconnect service starts 15JUN09.
28 CHRISBA777ER : The A332 wont have a problem doing LHR-HKG. HKG-LHR might be an issue west bound some of the year but it wont impact too much I shouldnt have though.
29 Lightsaber : This isn't that much of a surprise. Oh, I'm not talking about these specific routes, but that any airline is having to change the product mix for the
30 Kiwiandrew : not surprising bearing in mind the state of the economy , but it will be interesting to see how big companies react after someone/somewhere gets sent
31 YULWinterSkies : Not necessarily as J class products are constantly being improved, and are where F was 20 years ago, if not only 10.
32 ClassicLover : Well, considering it's only happening on 3 routes, and considering it's only for 6 months, I highly doubt that it's worth ripping out the F seats No-
33 Viscount724 : BUE is the city code for the Buenos Aires metropolitan area, and commonly used in reservations/ticketing. In any case, for that route the July-Octobe
34 LondonCity : Correct. The route is indeed Sydney-Buenos Aires.
35 Lightsaber : Very true. I suspect this is a major reason fewer city pairs suport a profitable F class product. In many cases, Y+ is almost what J was ten years ag
36 TravellerPlus : It has been proven that the risk of DVT is not related to the class of travel. A comparative study, conducted by the Witwatersrand University in Joha
37 Ikramerica : Well, QF Y+ is about what J was on them in the late 80s at minimum. J was much better than Y, but nothing like it is today in terms of hard product.
38 Airvan00 : A possibility is that during the 6 months they will be scheduling the 744's without F onto these routes. It is a lot easier to upgrade J pax into the
39 ANstar : QF's Y+ has something like 40-42" of seat pitch
40 QFFlyer : Which is great for a snooze. I have slept very well on my flights in Y+, in fact as well as I have in J on the Skybeds. Cheers
41 Post contains links Lightsaber : Nice... I didn't realize it was that roomy. But then I checked seat guru, and it claims 38" to 42" on the A380: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Qan.
42 ZK-NBT : I'm wondering re the MEL-HKG-LHR route aircraft rotation as initially they will likely leave the aircraft in a 4 class configuration it won't matter b
43 DocLightning : I think this figures in to a thread I posted a few weeks ago. Why would anyone pay five times the price of a J-class ticket when J-class offers most o
44 Zkpilot : Kiwiandrew is correct in that top tier pax will get priority in A-zone. This currently happens when a 3-4 class 744 replaces a 2-class 744. However i
45 ClassicLover : Yeah, it's 38" for the rows of 3 in the middle, and the AB JK seats on the sides are 42"
46 LipeGIG : How is EZE so far ? Any one can say something about how QF is doing ?
47 Hardiwv : I think QF must be doing well in EZE although AR offers very discounted fares, and what also helps QF is the fact that it operates SYD-EZE in full co
48 Smi0006 : Don't suppose you have any idea how many will be reconfigured? Will be interesting to see if F is ever added back in, just a shame the economy isn't
49 SA7700 : 9 suites on CX vs. 14 flatbed F-class seats on QF. Rgds SA7700
50 FrmrCAPCADET : They're playing games, why not just offer 34-35 inches in Y for 10-15% more. Those of us who are more or less slender need the pitch, not the extra wi
51 Flyglobal : I am the opinion that after the crisis the world is not as it was before regarding airtravel. Many companies have now restricted the airtravel regardi
52 Smi0006 : Ahh thank you forgive me I forgot to add my point for the comparison was the new QF F seat on the A380 are approx the current size of the CX ones, pe
53 Lumberton : Good post, Flyglobal. I have posted similar sentiments myself on other threads. The revenue model for many airlines has to change. Formerly, many of
54 Quetzal : I seem to remember, way back in the mid/late 80's QF operating a 767-200 to Manchester as an extension to the Kangaroo 'milk-run'... ie it stopped in
55 Lufthansa : And we have a winner! The real problem with this flight and lack of F class is the departure time. The earlier departure via singapore arrives nice a
56 Sydscott : I don't know why QF doesn't try a twice per week GRU service along with EZE although I understand that from a OW perspective it's probably easier to
57 Ikramerica : I don't think you'll ever see a return of F to these planes. As more A380s come in, the 744 fleet (that remains) will be 2 1/2 class. It's more likel
58 SunriseValley : It could still happen, according to well connected insiders , but it would be the 77L and the 77W . The trigger would be where fuel prices look to be
59 6thfreedom : So let me get this right... QF is not physically removing the F class cabin from the aircraft, but simply will not be selling in as a separate class,
60 Sydscott : Correct. It'll be sold as Business Class with people upgraded to the First Seat but still with Business Class service, food, amenities etc. I don't m
61 Pellegrine : Just made me hungry.
62 Zkpilot : Yes aparently there is an order for 12x77L and that QF will only take 3-4 more A388 at this stage...possibly cancelling the remaining orders. Word is
63 Quetzal : I'd be really interested to know your source... the old QF/777 rumour again. Love to see it happen though.
64 Ikramerica : That sounds unlikely, but it would be interesting. What kind of source are we talking about here? Second hand? Third hand? Eighth hand?
65 Sydscott : Unless they're all of a sudden going to build a base at AUH or DXB, why on earth would QF want a dozen 77L's? Aren't the 787's supposed to have enoug
66 Gemuser : OH NO, NOT AGAIN!!! Well you never know, especially with QF BUT 3-4 more A380 is not enough to cover the Kangaroo route. I will be extremely suprised
67 Lufthansa : Well that was what old Geoff was planning all along. That's the reason he never bothered order the 77W. He was simply waiting for the A350 a few year
68 Hardiwv : Also OW partners BA and LA operate GRU-EZE daily (B747+B767). Rgs,
69 Zkpilot : someone working for QF who is normally pretty reliable. Normally pretty reliable... they would have heard it from someone in the higher levels at QF
70 SunriseValley : This agrees with my source.
71 Ikramerica : So third hand. Not too shabby. The market to LAX has changed quite a bit in a few years. With DL and VA adding service and premium traffic dropping,
72 QFFlyer : To be fair to Zkpilot, I have heard this rumour to ,from people I trust, and also from the "opposition". Cheers
73 Sydscott : Ah so this isn't a new rumour. This is the old one where QF is wanting more range and Boeing is still trying to work out how to deliver. LOL I'm sure
74 Ikramerica : Well, he's not stating a rumor. He's stating that he knows someone who knows someone who knows. That's third hand knowledge (you don't know, your con
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